A Biblical Conflict

[for_his_glory]

What is so hard to understand in the simplicity of 2 Timothy 2:11-13. What is this hymn some speak of? Is it in the hymnal used in the church to sing out of? Are the lyrics written by a hymnodist as a song of praise as that are what hymns are?

2Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: (cross ref Colossians 3:1-4) 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: (cross ref 1 Peter 3:13-17) if we deny him, he also will deny us:(cross ref Hosea 4:6, 7) 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

It doesn't matter if one completely denies Christ to save his own life as one completely loses all faith and hope in Him, it is not going to change the word of God and who Christ is to a sinful world.

 

[JLB]

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Notice it doesn’t mention discussion about salvation through faith in Christ, in your scripture.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It’s a lyrical/rhythmic hymn in Greek. That is, all of it. The idea that one stanza of the hymn conflicts with another stanza in the hymn doesn’t even make sense.

Could you post the hymn your referring to in scripture.


JLB

 

[ezra]

Notice it doesn’t mention discussion about salvation through faith in Christ, in your scripture.



JLB

what does this have to do with the price of eggs in china .you asked for scriptures about our security i gave them you added more to them .i have nothing else to say

 

[JLB]

It’s a lyrical/rhythmic hymn in Greek. That is, all of it. The idea that one stanza of the hymn conflicts with another stanza in the hymn doesn’t even make sense.

Could you post the hymn you are referring to?

 

[ezra]

if we continue in the faith, our salvation is secure.

what IF OUR FAITH grows weak we become like a doubting Thomas on some things.. were no longer saved ?

 

[GodsGrace]

"I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23) fits, if one was to
deny Jesus ... because W. E. Vine says "knew" here means "approved of".

If you deny Jesus during Christian persecution, that means you haven't endured in the faith.

And there are a page full of NT verses which teach us that
we must endure until the end of our lives to be saved.
.

Hi Senior,
I'd say that the above is true not only during Christian persecution...but for any other reason.
I believe I posted Mathew 10:33.
I agree with your last sentence and feel it's very important to understand this.

 

[JLB]

what does this have to do with the price of eggs in china .you asked for scriptures about our security i gave them you added more to them .i have nothing else to say

I wasn’t referring to the price of eggs in China.


I was referring to the scripture you quoted about disputes about the law.

 

[GodsGrace]

there is numerous and i do mean numerous scriptures that shows the security of salvation . the old argument 1. teaching of eternal security is dangerous . 2. it gives a license to sin. while i am not pro Bono osas like southern baptist or few the other baptist teach.. i am very secure in my salvation . its called being mature in Him . the teaching of eternal security if taught right is correct . the arguments of 1 and 2 in not correct the license to sin is not Bible
Romans 6 the entire chapter covers the practicing of sin wrong.. if we are practicing sin on a daily bases .red flags go up . on the other hand we have this scripture .
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
i look at it this way when driving i can have a wreck ..but rather than focus on the wreck. i focus on driving so i dont wreck .john 10:10 Christ came to give us abundant life . focus on that by keeping our eyes on the prize the finish line .

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+6&version=KJV

Some verses do make it sound like eternal security is correct.
And indeed it is....if we believe Jesus till we die, we DO have eternal security.

Some verses can be interpreted to mean that we cannot lose our salvation...but this cannot be true since we know for sure that if one returns to a life of sin, he can no longer be saved.

Even the OSAS believers know this...that's why they've come up with the idea that the person was never saved to begin with. This is their way of explaining their behavior...the truth, to me, is that a person could be saved, but then decide that they really do not want to serve God. This is very clear in Luke 8:13.

I'd also like to say that it's times as this when I like to find out what the Early Church Fathers believed. They were close to those that were taught by Jesus, so I'd tend to trust them more than someone who thought up eternal security 1,500 years later...

 

[JLB]

what IF OUR FAITH grows weak we become like a doubting Thomas on some things.. were no longer saved ?

As long as we continue to believe, and not depart from Christ our living hope for salvation, then He will continue to strengthen us.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

The context is remainful under persecution.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Good questions and a fine selection. I think the answer is in the comparison of Judas and Peter. One was an elect child of God (Peter) and one was not (Judas). Peter was preserved by God to the time of his repentance and Judas was not. It is a matter that the elect will persevere because God preserves them. David committing adultery and conspiracy to murder comes to mind. King Saul? Not.

But the O.P. is not about the difference between two persons spoken of in scripture.

It's about the apparent conflict between
2 Timothy 2:12-13

Do you not see a conflict there?
How do we reconcile it?

 

[GodsGrace]

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

How is trying to reconcile an apparent conflict in scripture foolish?
Many use the verses I quoted incorrectly...
It would be nice to use verses the way they were meant, and not twist them around to suit our own concept of what they mean.

I'm not referring to you.
I do wish you'd comment on
2 Timothy 2:12-13

 

[GodsGrace]

The one that I pointed out in post #4 that is a “trustworthy saying” which is verses 11-13, which wondering put only a portion of in an OP about conflicting verses. It’s a lyrical/rhythmic hymn in Greek. That is, all of it. The idea that one stanza of the hymn conflicts with another stanza in the hymn doesn’t even make sense. Timothy and his congregation already knew the hymn (all of it) and rejoiced because of it’s message often.

Paul was reminding him of it so that he would remember just how faithful Christ is toward His elect ones.

Jesus said what you quoted to His disciples so that His disciples would also know (as He already knew would happen) that the Pharisees and Jewish rulers of His day would deny Jesus is Lord and that the disciples would eventually be killed by them. And thus the Pharisees will be denied as ever being one of His elect.

It’s different subjects.

But yes, they both come up in a word search for “deny”.

Christ is always faithful to His elect ones.
So please explain 2 Timothy 2:12 that clearly states that if we deny Jesus, He will deny us.

And we all know what deny means....

And WHO are His elect ones...and how do they know they're elect?

 

[GodsGrace]

yes i am aware its just anything along the line of eternal security discussion in the forum creates havoc . some body has to add on to it from there it escalates

LOL
You know Ezra, instead of worrying this MIGHT turn into an argument, why don't you just post what you believe?

IF it turns into an argument, I assure you it'll quickly cease.

 

[chessman]

Could you post the hymn you are referring to?

Sure:

εἰ γὰρ συναπεθάνομεν, καὶ συζήσομεν·​

εἰ ὑπομένομεν, καὶ συμβασιλεύσομεν·​

εἰ ἀρνησόμεθα, κἀκεῖνος ἀρνήσεται ἡμᾶς·​

εἰ ἀπιστοῦμεν, ἐκεῖνος πιστὸς μένει​

It’s a beautiful lyric in the Greek.

Here it is in English:

if we died with him, we will also live with him​

if we endure, we will also reign with him​

if we deny him , he also will deny us​

If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful​

And Paul’s point in referring to the hymn:

If we died with Him, we will live with Him because He cannot deny himself!

 

[ezra]

LOL
You know Ezra, instead of worrying this MIGHT turn into an argument, why don't you just post what you believe?

IF it turns into an argument, I assure you it'll quickly cease.

i have posted what i believe i have given scriptures lol and ya know suddenly ol ezra become the focus point

I assure you it'll quickly cease

so suddenly your mod or admin?

 

[ezra]

The context is remainful under persecution.

the context is to hang in there even though it gets tough hectic our spiritual inheritance is kept by the power of God .

 

[ezra]

I do wish you'd comment on
2 Timothy 2:12-13

what is there to comment on???? the scripture speaks for it self----------- 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. i mean that like trying to explain john 3:16 its self explanatory might i add i had commented on it .

 

[chessman]

please explain 2 Timothy 2:12 that clearly states that if we deny Jesus, He will deny us.

What’s to explain and where’s the seeming conflict?
It’s only those that don’t know the answer to the following question, where’s there a conflict it seems with v11 and 13: Deny us what???

People assume all kinds of things are the right answer. Anything from denying us pudding (or a new car) to denying us salvation (which isn’t in the Text). If you let the context decide, however, it’s easy to see what He will deny us of however (even in the English but even more so in the Greek);

if we endure, we will also reign with him​

if we deny him, he also will deny us​

Enduring misfortunes results in reigning with Him.

Denying Him results in Him denying us that reigning with Him. They even rhyme (in the Greek).

 

[JLB]

Sure:

εἰ γὰρ συναπεθάνομεν, καὶ συζήσομεν·​

εἰ ὑπομένομεν, καὶ συμβασιλεύσομεν·​

εἰ ἀρνησόμεθα, κἀκεῖνος ἀρνήσεται ἡμᾶς·​

εἰ ἀπιστοῦμεν, ἐκεῖνος πιστὸς μένει​

It’s a beautiful lyric in the Greek.

Here it is in English:

if we died with him, we will also live with him​

if we endure, we will also reign with him​

if we deny him , he also will deny us​

If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful​

And Paul’s point in referring to the hymn:

If we died with Him, we will live with Him because He cannot deny himself!

That’s just scripture.

It says if we deny Him, He will deny is.


Just as Jesus taught Him.


But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:33


JLB