A Cessationist Passage?

[Hidden In Him]

Why on earth did you create a new thread for it, LoL? Why not post it here? That's what I've been waiting on for three pages now? Why should I not be able to respond to it in my own thread?

Arial.
Here. I felt as though my case was being watered down a little in your OP, so I reposted it in full in Apologetics and then included your response : )

Thread 'A Cessationist Passage? Part 2'

Jan 20, 2025

Is 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 A Cessationist Passage?



Note: This was originally posted in Theology, but for the sake of focusing more exclusively on the text at hand we have elected to repost in Apologetics and approach it afresh.

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians...

• Hidden In Him
• Replies: 18
• Forum: Apologetics

 

[Arial]

I do not believe that is Biblical truth. It is if you are a Pentecostal believer who "wants" those sign gifts, but it is not so stated in the Scriptures. Lets do a Bible study shall we ............

I was not saying that as a biblical truth. It was a joke because of your statement that it seems I have been a lot of things. The package deal was the churches I was attending were Charismatic and they were also dispensationalist, and they were also Armenianist. All at the same time. So that was my early teaching from the church.

 

[Rodger]

I was not saying that as a biblical truth. It was a joke because of your statement that it seems I have been a lot of things. The package deal was the churches I was attending were Charismatic and they were also dispensationalist, and they were also Armenianist. All at the same time. So that was my early teaching from the church.

My apologies.......I had no idea and was only responding to what was posted.

 

[Rodger]

Arial.
Here. I felt as though my case was being watered down a little in your OP, so I reposted it in full in Apologetics and then included your response : )

Thread 'A Cessationist Passage? Part 2'

Jan 20, 2025

Is 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 A Cessationist Passage?



Note: This was originally posted in Theology, but for the sake of focusing more exclusively on the text at hand we have elected to repost in Apologetics and approach it afresh.

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians...

• Hidden In Him
• Replies: 18
• Forum: Apologetics

Correct and agreed.

ALL of those "sign gifts" ended when the perfect came.

Please take the time to carfully read and understand the literal words in 1 Corth. 13......
The precise wording of verse 8 may hold a clue: the prophecies are said to “cease”; knowledge is said to “pass away”; and tongues are said to “be stilled”.

It is really hard for me to understand how that can be misunderstood or misapplied.

The Scriptures in 1 Corth. 13:10 clearly say that there will be a time when the "sign gifts" will cease because something better (“that which is perfect”) will replace them. Perfect means “complete”—the incomplete will be replaced by the complete.
1. The completion of the Bible.
2. The glorification of believers in heaven.

Again, notice the literal words of Scripture......"When the Perfect COMES"!

Going to heaven is not something COMING....... IT is the believer GOING to heaven.

Therefore, The "Perfect" has to be the completed Word of God. It was completed when John wrote the Revelation and then he died. As one of the original Eleven seen in Mark 16:14, the sign gifts then ended with his death.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Correct and agreed.

ALL of those "sign gifts" ended when the perfect came.

Please take the time to carfully read and understand the literal words in 1 Corth. 13......
The precise wording of verse 8 may hold a clue: the prophecies are said to “cease”; knowledge is said to “pass away”; and tongues are said to “be stilled”.

It is really hard for me to understand how that can be misunderstood or misapplied.

The Scriptures in 1 Corth. 13:10 clearly say that there will be a time when the "sign gifts" will cease because something better (“that which is perfect”) will replace them. Perfect means “complete”—the incomplete will be replaced by the complete.
1. The completion of the Bible.
2. The glorification of believers in heaven.

Again, notice the literal words of Scripture......"When the Perfect COMES"!

Going to heaven is not something COMING....... IT is the believer GOING to heaven.

Therefore, The "Perfect" has to be the completed Word of God. It was completed when John wrote the Revelation and then he died. As one of the original Eleven seen in Mark 16:14, the sign gifts then ended with his death.

Blessings again, Roger.

You may not be fully understanding what I am teaching there, because I'm actually saying quite the opposite (see post below). But if you would like to join in the Apologetics version you are welcome to.

Post in thread 'A Cessationist Passage? Part 2'

Jan 21, 2025

If Paul intended any parallel with this passage it was that Christ is superior to Moses, and being in Christ the believer has obtained what is far superior to what Moses obtained.

This is a teaching of Paul, but it's not what's being discussed in 1st Corinthians 13. The focus in this passage is on how they were operating in the gifts, which must be in love and with maturity, versus to no productive end and in immaturely (i.e. as a mere "clanging cymbal" etc).

Let me show you what the verses in question are referring to, using your translation of 8-12.

Love never ends. As for...

• Hidden In Him

 

[Rodger]

Absolutely. On this much we absolutely agree.


Well I can certainly understand some getting off-track if they are not firmly founded in the word of God as you say, so maybe there could be a meeting of the minds there some day. As I said, I believe in the importance of both; the written word AND the prophetic word. I believe we are increasingly entering the time when Joel 2:28 is beginning to be fulfilled, which is the reason I stress both. I believe it is the Lord's will that we increasingly understand these things going forward.


When you see the Lord confirming things to you over and over again, your faith increases until you use don't have doubts anymore about the efficacy of Spirit-filled, Spirit-breathed dreams and visions. The proof is in the fruit of it, and what the results are. I would again refer you to a thread I referenced earlier in Post #17 where I mention a few things, under "We Bare A Responsibility," but there's a lot I never share with the public.

You said.......
"When you see the Lord confirming things to you over and over again, your faith increases until you use don't have doubts anymore about the efficacy of Spirit-filled, Spirit-breathed dreams and visions."

Far be it from me to question your befiefs and I am not doing that in any way. However, may I ask you a question?

If you DO NOT see God confirming something to you, would that cause you to question your vision or dream? If that is the case, then wouldn't the logical and common sense next step to accept is that we would expect visions/dreams to be an ordinary occurrence? That seems to be what you are saying.

It is absolutely correct As recorded in the Bible, that God spoke to people times past by means of visions/dreams.

Examples are Joseph, son of Jacob; Joseph, the husband of Mary; Solomon; Isaiah; Ezekiel; Daniel; Peter; and Paul. The prophet Joel predicted an outpouring of visions, and this was confirmed by the apostle Peter in Acts chapter 2. However, and most importantly, It is important to note that the difference between a vision and a dream is that a vision is given when a person is awake while a dream is given when a person is asleep.

Of course, There is no limit to what God can do and that should not be a focus of debate.

May I say to you that we must be careful when it comes to visions/dreams and the interpretation of them. We must keep in mind that the Bible is finished, and it tells us everything we need to know.

The key truth is that if God were to give a vision/dream it would have to agree completely with what He has already revealed in His Word. I hope everyone realizes that if it does not, that then would make God a liar and if He is a liar, NO ONE IS SAVED!

Visions/dreams should never be given equal or greater authority than the Word of God. God’s Word is our ultimate authority for Christian faith and practice. If you believe you have had a vision and feel that perhaps God gave it to you, prayerfully examine the Word of God and make sure your vision is in agreement with Scripture.

You see, God would not give a vision/dream to a person and then keep the meaning of the vision hidden. In Scripture, whenever a person asked God for the meaning of a vision, God made sure it was explained to the person.

Also, please undrstand that Satan is the master of deception! He will do anything and everything to draw attention away from the Word of God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you DO NOT see God confirming something to you, would that cause you to question your vision or dream?

This can happen quite frequently, Roger, but it doesn't mean the dream was not from God. Many dreams come in the form of Warning Dreams, which present a certain scenario as playing out unless changes are made that affect things. I receive these dreams quite often and make the necessary changes, so the dreams do not come to pass as they were presented. This is one of the ways I believe He can guide our steps prophetically, so that we are constantly making wise decisions instead of poor ones.

 

[electedbyHim]

This can happen quite frequently, Roger, but it doesn't mean the dream was not from God. Many dreams come in the form of Warning Dreams, which present a certain scenario as playing out unless changes are made that affect things. I receive these dreams quite often and make the necessary changes, so the dreams do not come to pass as they were presented. This is one of the ways I believe He can guide our steps prophetically, so that we are constantly making wise decisions instead of poor ones.

I am curious now.

Hidden, what standard do you use to measure that your dream is from God.

If not the Bible, how do you know?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am curious now.

Hidden, what standard do you use to measure that your dream is from God.

If not the Bible, how do you know?

This is where it gets tricky, and it's an excellent question. I am at more of an advanced state in operating in it now. I have seen enough supernatural confirmations to where I KNOW the Spirit of God is involved. I don't question that now. I suppose that is what has opened me up to trust in what a Warning Dream is saying and take it seriously. Sometimes it can be tough telling the difference between something that MAY come to pass and something that IS or WILL. But think of it this way: It's like the Lord paints a picture for you of what your life will be like if you keep going in a certain direction, given where you are currently headed in mentally; or given the decisions you COULD make, given your current emotional or temperamental make up. You watch that vision during sleep, and after interpretation you know what your life could become unless you take steps to circumvent things or alter them in some way. The minute you do that, the next dream could be on the same subject but it will be different now.

Were the dreams from God? Yes. Were they predicting the future? Yes. Were the things they depicted inescapable? No. And that is where theology comes in. If I take the view that my own personal future is already preplanned and inescapable and nothing I do will change things, receiving Warning dreams will do me no good because I don't believe my actions will alter any of the outcomes. So the theological approach to the question in large part determines how you would answer that question. I consider them all to be of God, but whether many of them come to pass or not is largely contingent upon the decisions I make.

 

[Rodger]

This is where it gets tricky, and it's an excellent question. I am at more of an advanced state in operating in it now. I have seen enough supernatural confirmations to where I KNOW the Spirit of God is involved. I don't question that now. I suppose that is what has opened me up to trust in what a Warning Dream is saying and take it seriously. Sometimes it can be tough telling the difference between something that MAY come to pass and something that IS or WILL. But think of it this way: It's like the Lord paints a picture for you of what your life will be like if you keep going in a certain direction, given where you are currently headed in mentally; or given the decisions you COULD make, given your current emotional or temperamental make up. You watch that vision during sleep, and after interpretation you know what your life could become unless you take steps to circumvent things or alter them in some way. The minute you do that, the next dream could be on the same subject but it will be different now.

Were the dreams from God? Yes. Were they predicting the future? Yes. Were the things they depicted inescapable? No. And that is where theology comes in. If I take the view that my own personal future is already preplanned and inescapable and nothing I do will change things, receiving Warning dreams will do me no good because I don't believe my actions will alter any of the outcomes. So the theological approach to the question in large part determines how you would answer that question. I consider them all to be of God, but whether many of them come to pass or not is largely contingent upon the decisions I make.

I see that you are a staff member and a moderator and far be it from me to challenge your opinions. However, I can say with clarity that what you are saying really does speak to the problem of "pride".

YOU have placed yourself in a lofty position when you say......"I am at a more advanced stage now".
Again, you believe what you believe and I will not challenge that but what you are saying can lead to very dangerous endings.

@ "electedbyhim" questioned by what standard do you measure that your dreams actually come from God. You stated that YOU are that standard.

Romans 3:23.......
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Glory = Standard!

Again.....I am not arguing with you and I with you all of Gods blessing, however, IMHO you are walking on very thin ice on this topic.

I hope that you have considered tha dreams may be false messages from our spiritual enemies.

Deut. 13:1-5.......
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,(2)and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'(3) you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.(4) “You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.
(5) “But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you."

That means, whether a prophet was true or false does not depend on the performance of signs alone—it also depends on the message being consistent with other revealed truth from the scripture.

Jude 1:8...........
"Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones."

That means the "dreamers," of Jude's day dreamed about ways to indulge what they wanted to do. Better said, it refers to their ability and efforts to have claimed spiritual visions/dreams as an excuse for their action.

In Jeremiah 23:32 God said this about the “smooth tongued” false prophets: ....
“Their imaginary dreams are flagrant lies that lead my people into sin. I did not send or appoint them, and they have no message at all for my people”.

In all love and respect I say again that any vision or dream must also be found in the written Word of God as a standard for authenticity. Without that then it is only an opinion.

 

[hawkman]

They are all the Bible---different translations.

Different translations but not all have the same books bound together in what we call a bible !

You said complete and closed so which one do decide to call this ? What is your method ?

The Bible is a closed book. Closed as in complete.

What exactly are you calling "The Bible " ? KJV ? NIV ? The Message ? Douay-Rheims ? etc.

 

[electedbyHim]

This is where it gets tricky, and it's an excellent question. I am at more of an advanced state in operating in it now. I have seen enough supernatural confirmations to where I KNOW the Spirit of God is involved. I don't question that now. I suppose that is what has opened me up to trust in what a Warning Dream is saying and take it seriously. Sometimes it can be tough telling the difference between something that MAY come to pass and something that IS or WILL. But think of it this way: It's like the Lord paints a picture for you of what your life will be like if you keep going in a certain direction, given where you are currently headed in mentally; or given the decisions you COULD make, given your current emotional or temperamental make up. You watch that vision during sleep, and after interpretation you know what your life could become unless you take steps to circumvent things or alter them in some way. The minute you do that, the next dream could be on the same subject but it will be different now.

Were the dreams from God? Yes. Were they predicting the future? Yes. Were the things they depicted inescapable? No. And that is where theology comes in. If I take the view that my own personal future is already preplanned and inescapable and nothing I do will change things, receiving Warning dreams will do me no good because I don't believe my actions will alter any of the outcomes. So the theological approach to the question in large part determines how you would answer that question. I consider them all to be of God, but whether many of them come to pass or not is largely contingent upon the decisions I make.

Thank you for your honesty.

 

[Arial]

You said complete and closed so which one do decide to call this ? What is your method ?

With the exception of Bibles put out by cults and the one put out by Open Theist, they are all saying the same thing. They are translating words from one language into another---not an exact science and very complex. Being a translator is a discipline all its own. Some translations are more preferable than other to different people, and some are more precise, but if one looks into it simply with internet available breakdowns of language to language, you will find that they are not in contradiction to one another. massive amounts of original texts are used at the beginning and still used, and those in a multiple of languages. If you really want to understand the process, research it.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

LoL.

Elected, GotQuestions here is interpreting the word "prophecy" through the same doctrinal bias MacArthur is. Almost the same exact wording is used throughout. I am telling you the word has always had to do with the predictive utterances of God.

I would make the same offer as with Arial. If you would like, list for me the passages (both OT and NT) where the word prophecy is used in a manner that has nothing to do with the predictive and we can discuss it. I will list the uses of the word where the term had a predictive meaning, and we can then compare the two sample groups and see which sense is more prevalent in the NT and OT.

Why do you limit the word study to "prophecy"? Why not include the clause "the word of the LORD came to..."?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why do you limit the word study to "prophecy"? Why not include the clause "the word of the LORD came to..."?

Because the argument was over what that word meant specifically. He cited a GotQuestions piece that stated, "The spiritual gift of prophecy is listed among the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:10 and Romans 12:6. The Greek word translated “prophesying” or “prophecy” in both passages properly means..."

The discussion was over that specific word. Kind of a long time ago now, so I quite honestly don't remember much else. I just know I was responding to the potential redefinition of the word so that it no longer had anything to do with supernatural gifts.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see that you are a staff member and a moderator and far be it from me to challenge your opinions. However, I can say with clarity that what you are saying really does speak to the problem of "pride".

YOU have placed yourself in a lofty position when you say......"I am at a more advanced stage now".
Again, you believe what you believe and I will not challenge that but what you are saying can lead to very dangerous endings.

Blessings, Roger. My apologies, but I never saw this post for some reason until Bruce just brought it back up, but I touch on this subject a good bit in the following study. It can be a problem for some if they are not careful and not aware of the enemy's devices, but I've been at it awhile and don't regard myself as anything special. If I have any value at all it is only because of Christ in me, and I never forget that fact. But I do appreciate the warnings. Does me no harm to be reminded.

Thread 'Charismatic Bible Studies - 1 Peter 5:1-11'

Jan 18, 2025

Leaders Must Resist The Devil, And Flee From Ungodly Temptations



Scripture teaches that Satan fell through pride. He exalted himself such that he began comparing himself to the Most High God, and as a result he was cast down to the earth, so he now fights against God and seeks to undermine everything He does as His enemy.

This includes in the church, where he takes every opportunity to corrupt God's leaders and fill them with the same spirit of pride that caused him to fall. Peter therefore now begins to warn those who were shepherding God's people of the...

• Hidden In Him
• Replies: 4
• Forum: Pentecostalism

• 

 

[hawkman]

In all love and respect I say again that any vision or dream must also be found in the written Word of God as a standard for authenticity.

Scripture to support your statement ?

 

[Rodger]

Scripture to support your statement ?

Dear "hawkman", there is no question that in times past God spoke to men through vision and dreams. However that was a very long time ago before the Word of God was written down. That is the fact I am speaking about......TODAY.

The apostle Paul reminds us in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, “Test everything; hold fast what is good.”
So, even in the midst of interpreting dreams and visions, we must compare them with God’s Word to ensure their legitimacy.

Jeremiah 23:32.......
“I am against these false prophets. Their imaginary dreams are flagrant lies that lead my people into sin. I did not send or appoint them, and they have no message at all for my people. I, the Lord, have spoken!”

Deuteronomy 13:1-3​

“Suppose there are prophets among you or those who dream dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles occur. If they then say, ‘Come, let us worship other gods’—gods you have not known before—do not listen to them.”​

Zech. 10:2........
“Household gods give worthless advice, fortune-tellers predict only lies, and interpreters of dreams pronounce falsehoods that give no comfort. So my people are wandering like lost sheep; they are attacked because they have no shepherd.”

Now, allow me to ask you this.....if YOU tell me that God spoke to you in a vision, how do you then respond to me saying to you-----He didnt speak to me, are you more of His favorite than me??????
Since He visited YOU and only YOU, dosent that completly change the written Word of God where we read in James 2:1 .....
"My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism."

Explain 1 Timothy 5:21.....
" I solemnly command you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus and the highest angels to obey these instructions without taking sides or showing favoritism to anyone."

 

[hawkman]

The apostle Paul reminds us in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, “Test everything; hold fast what is good.”
So, even in the midst of interpreting dreams and visions, we must compare them with God’s Word to ensure their legitimacy.

Test , yes we must .

Now, allow me to ask you this.....if YOU tell me that God spoke to you in a vision, how do you then respond to me saying to you-----He didnt speak to me, are you more of His favorite than me??????

The vision I saw was letters on a painting hanging on a wall . There was three other Christians present with me in the room , they did not see the letters . The letters were black and at least three inches tall so there was no reason they should not have seen them . God did not speak to me at this time .

Rodger , are you ready to see visions or to have God speak to you ?

Since He visited YOU and only YOU, dosent that completly change the written Word of God where we read in James 2:1

Let me know when you have asked everyone else if they have had a vision from God or not . The whole of Christianity is not of the cessationist mold .

 

[JLB]

I am a "Cessationist" in that God has said all that He wanted to say and the "sign gifts" given to the apostles have ended with the death of the last apostle.

So you believe now that we have the the Bible there is no need for the Promise of the Father to empower our lives to be witnesses for Him and to do the works that Jesus did?

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Acts 1:8

I will be the first one to agree that many have abused the gifts of the Spirit, and have turned people "off" from wanting to operate in them.

Nevertheless, at the end of the day, it's about what our Savior and Lord wants us to do to fulfill His purpose for our lives, and be doing that in these last days.

If you believe that now that we have the Bible, we don't need the power of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, then I would like to see some scripture that says there is no more baptism with the Holy Spirit, no more apostles, no more power to live the Christian life and be a witness for Christ, no more healings, no more casting out devils, no more prophets...

It would be refreshing to see some scripture from Jesus, Paul and Peter and John, that teaches us the Church doesn't need any of these things the first century Church operated in anymore.




JLB