Bible Study A False Teaching about the Cross and Jesus being Crucified

[stovebolts]

Crucified and cross have the same definition in major Concordances and I use interchangeably both terms in my explanations.

As scripture shows He died on the cross but not crucified on the cross.

The meat of the Word is Jesus denied self before the foundation of the world, defined as crucified, and then He died on the cross but His physical dying isn’t crucified,

I’m having a hard time here. If you removed your first quote, it might reduce some confusion since your first quote defines the two as the same, then later you parse the two.

I’m a simple person. Christ died on the cross because he was crucified on the cross.

When you say Jesus denied self on the cross, can you give an example to clarify what you mean?

 

[Ken123$]

I’m having a hard time here. If you removed your first quote, it might reduce some confusion since your first quote defines the two as the same, then later you parse the two.

I’m a simple person. Christ died on the cross because he was crucified on the cross.

When you say Jesus denied self on the cross, can you give an example to clarify what you mean?

Thanks for asking. I am new here and not sure how to rework the first quote.
Would this help. Jesus denied self from the beginning of the world, while dying, and for eternity. When He was physically being crucified He also was denying self which brought forth dying. Denying self is His good work which led to His death.

 

[JLB]

And Jesus literally denied self for death on the cross. It is what Jesus did to die on the cross not what evil people did to kill Him. Yes His death saves mankind and this would not have happened unless he deny self.

Ok.

I agree He didn’t want to suffer and die a horrible death, of torture and pain, but humbled Himself to do His Fathers will, in denial of self.


He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” Matthew 26:39



And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:8




JLB

 

[Ken123$]

I know of scripture that shows He denied-self being Greek defined loss of self interest.

​

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

16:24 Then 5119 said 2036 5627 Jesus 2424 unto his 846 disciples 3101, If any 1536 [man] will 2309 5719 come 2064 5629 after 3694 me 3450, let him deny 533 5663 himself 1438, and 2532 take up 142 5657 his 846 cross 4716, and 2532 follow 1

Word: aparneomai

Pronounce: ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee

Strongs Number: G533

Orig: from 575 and 720; to deny utterly, i.e. disown, abstain:--deny. G575

Use: TDNT-1:471,* Verb

Heb Strong: H3988

1) to deny
1a) to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone
1b) to forget one's self, lose sight of one's self and one's own interests

 

[Ken123$]

Ok.

I agree He didn’t want to suffer and die a horrible death, of torture and pain, but humbled Himself to do His Fathers will, in denial of self.


He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” Matthew 26:39



And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:8




JLB

He humbled Himself and became obedient, could He have done this without denying self? Seems like denying self was The step in His final Crucification as described in the Crucified definition.
Bible Explore.com, KJV W/ STRONGS BIBLE - 1 CORINTHIANS 1 http://www.godrules.net/library/kjvstrongs/kjvstrongs1cor1.htm

1:18 For 1063 the preaching 3056 of the cross 4716 is 2076 5748 to them 3303 that perish 622 5730 foolishness 3472; but 1161 unto us 2254 which are saved 4982 5746 it is 2076 5748 the power 1411 of God 2316.

Word: stauroj, Pronounce: stow-ros' , Strongs Number: G4716. Orig: from the base of 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross. G2476. Use: TDNT-7:572,1071 Noun Masculine, Heb Strong

 

[JLB]

He humbled Himself and became obedient, could He have done this without denying self? Seems like denying self was The step in His final Crucification as described in the Crucified definition.

His life was spent in denial of self centered desires to obedient to the will of the Father.


The Spirit led Him into the wilderness to fast for 40 days and be tempted by the devil.


Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. Matthew 4:1




JLB

 

[Ken123$]

Are self centered desires different than self interest? Seems like self interest denial is an entire removal of all interest but self centered denial is removing of only strong feeling or wanting. The removal of all interest is the requirement of Jesus for Himself and for His Children. This entire removal of self interest opens the door for us to replace our interest with Him being our Lord because our interest is His interest.

Desires seems to be : a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen.


Interest seems to be: to engage the attention or arouse the interest of

Deny Self​

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

16:24 Then 5119 said 2036 5627 Jesus 2424 unto his 846 disciples 3101, If any 1536 [man] will 2309 5719 come 2064 5629 after 3694 me 3450, let him deny 533 5663 himself 1438, and 2532 take up 142 5657 his 846 cross 4716, and 2532 follow 1

Word: aparneomai Pronounce: ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee Strongs Number: G533 Orig: from 575 and 720; to deny utterly, i.e. disown, abstain:--deny. G575 Use: TDNT-1:471,* Verb Heb Strong: H3988

1) to deny
1a) to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone
1b) to forget one's self, lose sight of one's self and one's own interests

 

[Who Me]

The roman view of Christians.

Note they viewed Jesus as being on a cross not the false JW view of on a stake.

 

[stovebolts]

The roman view of Christians.

Note they viewed Jesus as being on a cross not the false JW view of on a stake.

Where in the world did that picture come from? And why does the head look like a horses head?

 

[Ken123$]

The roman view of Christians.

Note they viewed Jesus as being on a cross not the false JW view of on a stake.

Did you see my revised post and your thoughts?
Crucified and cross have the same definition in major Concordances and I use interchangeably both terms in my explanations.

The meat of the Word is Jesus denied self before the foundation of the world, defined as crucified, and then He died on the cross but His physical dying isn’t crucified, IE during His dying He denied self which is non-physical and defined as crucification and for eternity He denies self, also Christians should deny self for eternity and is their crucification.

The New Testament shows Christ was crucified died and rose from the dead and, by Greek definition, He figuratively denied self for His death on the cross. IE the NT exclusively shows one-way He was crucified denying self which resulted in His death, resurrection and bringing His blood as a sacrificial offering to His father.

******************

John 19:23 The New King James Version Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.

Remember the context of this scripture and it is an act of soldiers on Jesus and it is obviously not soldiers self denial but is their act which means to physical kill Jesus.

When referring to Jesus crucification it is Him denying self as Strongs shows being figuratively self denial.

Word: stauroj, Pronounce: stow-ros' , Strongs Number: G4716. Orig: from the base of 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross. G2476. Use: TDNT-7:572,1071 Noun Masculine, Heb Strong



https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/john/19/23#:~:text=John 19:23,top in one piece

**************

Also, the Old Testament shows His crucifixion was self-denial which is a true understanding of God’s will. Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead and God the Father believed He would raise Jesus because of Abrahams work of faith. Then God allowed His son Jesus to die and will raise Him. This could did not happened until man (Abraham) denied self and gave his son by a work of faith. Therefore, the OT shows Jesus was crucified same as Abraham’s faith of self-denial. Both Jesus and Abraham denied-self which allowed death, first Abraham for his son then God for His Son, Abraham son’s actual physical death was stopped by God because there was no need for this to happen.

Basis for this teaching​

Preaching the cross or His crusification is preaching His death on the cross?

​

Preaching the cross isn’t preaching His death on the cross and scripture shows His cross, by Greek definition, is a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment) and this seems to be an accurate understanding of preaching the cross. But further review of this scripture shows God’s understanding of what preaching the cross is. The cross is defined as a stake and figuratively self-denial per Greek definition. 1 Corinthians 1:18. By definition figurative language is new insight into a word. This new insight (Self-Denial) is God’s insight and is beyond the insight of his death on the cross. Figuratively, exposure to death, IE self-denial is to deny self and when we deny self He can live in us and we are following in His footsteps same as when He denied self unto death on the cross.



Example of usage of figuratively:



http://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-figurative-language.html



Vocabulary.com figuratively/literally

http://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/figuratively-literally/



The Greek definition of Deny in Matthew 16:24 when Jesus said let him deny is to lose one’s self-interest.



REF Greek definition:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Bible Explore.com, KJV W/ STRONGS BIBLE - 1 CORINTHIANS 1 http://www.godrules.net/library/kjvstrongs/kjvstrongs1cor1.htm

1:18 For 1063 the preaching 3056 of the cross 4716 is 2076 5748 to them 3303 that perish 622 5730 foolishness 3472; but 1161 unto us 2254 which are saved 4982 5746 it is 2076 5748 the power 1411 of God 2316.

Word: stauroj, Pronounce: stow-ros' , Strongs Number: G4716. Orig: from the base of 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross. G2476. Use: TDNT-7:572,1071 Noun Masculine, Heb Strong

​

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus denied self from the beginning of the world, while dying, and for eternity. When He was physically being crucified He also was denying self which brought forth dying

Greetings, Ken.

I can't say as I buy this argument. We know the Lord asked the Father, "If it be Your will, let this cup pass from Me," so one could argue that He had to deny His self-will before submitting to crucifixion. But what aspect of His will would He have had to deny before He became manifest in the flesh? Is there some trial mentioned in scripture where the pre-incarnate Lord wanted to do one thing but the Father commanded Him to do another? What scripture are you basing this argument on?

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

 

[Sister]

So what area of Biblical growth/understanding are you trying to get across? I'm completely lost with what you are trying to say.

This passage comes to mind:

Philippians 2:3-11

Philippians 2 BSB

3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


-----

Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of mankind. I am eternally grateful and want to have the mind of Christ. It isn't always easy to deny self, but Jesus Christ gave the ultimate example on the cross.

 

[Ken123$]

Greetings, Ken.

I can't say as I buy this argument. We know the Lord asked the Father, "If it be Your will, let this cup pass from Me," so one could argue that He had to deny His self-will before submitting to crucifixion. But what aspect of His will would He have had to deny before He became manifest in the flesh? Is there some trial mentioned in scripture where the pre-incarnate Lord wanted to do one thing but the Father commanded Him to do another? What scripture are you basing this argument on?

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

The old testament where sacrifices were animals was Jesus denying self but not physically. He was preparing mankind for His physical suffering and death. Denying self Greek definition is not physical but loss of self interest.

 

[Ken123$]

So what area of Biblical growth/understanding are you trying to get across? I'm completely lost with what you are trying to say.

This passage comes to mind:

Philippians 2:3-11

Philippians 2 BSB

3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


-----

Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of mankind. I am eternally grateful and want to have the mind of Christ. It isn't always easy to deny self, but Jesus Christ gave the ultimate example on the cross.

Denying self is Greek defined as loss of self interest and not physical denial but physical may be a result of denying self and for Jesus was a result with His physical death.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The old testament where sacrifices were animals was Jesus denying self but not physically.

How was Jesus denying Himself here?

Denying self Greek definition is not physical but loss of self interest.

I assume you're referring to ἀπαρνέομαι, which is merely an intensified form of αρνέομαι. Again, how are you establishing that it was never used of physical denial? In Titus 2:11-12 it states, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age." Earlier in the Chapter he mentions things like stealing and giving themselves to drinking wine, so here we have the word used in reference to denying material and fleshly (i.e. physical) desires.

How are you establishing that the Greek is never used of denying oneself physically?

 

[Ken123$]

Have you read the definition of Deny Self below?

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

16:24 Then 5119 said 2036 5627 Jesus 2424 unto his 846 disciples 3101, If any 1536 [man] will 2309 5719 come 2064 5629 after 3694 me 3450, let him deny 533 5663 himself 1438, and 2532 take up 142 5657 his 846 cross 4716, and 2532 follow 1

Word: aparneomai Pronounce: ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee Strongs Number: G533 Orig: from 575 and 720; to deny utterly, i.e. disown, abstain:--deny. G575 Use: TDNT-1:471,* Verb Heb Strong: H3988

1) to deny
1a) to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone
1b) to forget one's self, lose sight of one's self and one's own interests

 

[Hidden In Him]

Have you read the definition of Deny Self below?

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

16:24 Then 5119 said 2036 5627 Jesus 2424 unto his 846 disciples 3101, If any 1536 [man] will 2309 5719 come 2064 5629 after 3694 me 3450, let him deny 533 5663 himself 1438, and 2532 take up 142 5657 his 846 cross 4716, and 2532 follow 1

Word: aparneomai Pronounce: ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee Strongs Number: G533 Orig: from 575 and 720; to deny utterly, i.e. disown, abstain:--deny. G575 Use: TDNT-1:471,* Verb Heb Strong: H3988

1) to deny
1a) to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone
1b) to forget one's self, lose sight of one's self and one's own interests

Yes, Ken.

What I was sharing with you is that sometimes the word is used of denying the flesh its physical wants, such as when abstaining from things like wine, as your Strongs Concordance citation above points out.

More specific to the discussion, however, I wanted to know how you arrived at the conclusion that Jesus was denying Himself with respect to animal sacrifices in the Old Testament. Trying to limit my time on the forums, so I was just curious.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

 

[Who Me]

Where in the world did that picture come from? And why does the head look like a horses head?

Grafiti found in the ruins of Pompey, Italy.

 

[Who Me]

Crucified and cross have the same definition in major Concordances and I use interchangeably both terms in my explanation

Then why all the nonsence about him being crucified on a stake.

 

[Ken123$]

Then why all the nonsence about him being crucified on a stake.

Yes, Ken.

What I was sharing with you is that sometimes the word is used of denying the flesh its physical wants, such as when abstaining from things like wine, as your Strongs Concordance citation above points out.

More specific to the discussion, however, I wanted to know how you arrived at the conclusion that Jesus was denying Himself with respect to animal sacrifices in the Old Testament. Trying to limit my time on the forums, so I was just curious.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

The animal sacrifices happened because He decided to deny self for Future denying self which led to Him dying on the cross. Keep in mind loss of self interest in not physical.