Jethro Bodine
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(Post removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah)
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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A Person is Justified by Works and not by Faith Alone
- Thread starter Doulos Iesou
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
(Post removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah)
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Jethro Bodine
Member
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Trolling. Obadiah)
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James was speaking from the perspective of others, not the perspective of God. When one misunderstands this, they conclude that one must include works in order to be saved. Which contradicts many other Scriptures.
The context of James 2:14-26 is about demonstrating one's faith. It begins with an example of that in v.15 and 16. The example is of a believer who is hypocritical. Not of one who is unsaved. It would be ludicrous to claim that anyone who is hypocritical is unsaved. Many believers can be and are hypocritical, and James was urging believers to demonstrate their faith to others.
James 2:18
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” NASB
The "someone" here is challenging the reader about his faith by the statement: "you have faith". He is also noting that he has works. The challenge of this "someone" is to show or demonstrate your faith without works. How can one do that? It is impossible to demonstrate one's faith without works. One can indicate they are a Christian, but if they act like the one in 2:15-16, they are being a hypocrite.
And finally, the "someone" says that he WILL demonstrate his faith by his works.
There are many Scriptures that speak to the fact that others observe the believer and judge the believer by his actions. James is making that point in 2:26.
Here are some verses that clearly indicate that we are to live our lives with the perspective of others in view: (NASB)
2 Cor 8:21 - for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
Rom 12:17 - Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
Rom 14:18 - For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
1 Tim 3:7 - And he must have a good reputation (works to demonstrate one's faith) with those outside the church (unbelievers), so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1 Thess 4:12 - so that you will behave properly toward outsiders (don't be a hypocrite) and not be in any need.
1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent (works to demonstrate your faith) among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. (clearly speaking against being hypocritical) Directly applicable to James 2:15-16.
It was my pleasure!
No sir! It's all yours.
Jethro Bodine
Member
From the account of Abraham that James uses to illustrate his point:
"12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."" (Genesis 22:12 NASB)
The account most certainly is from the perspective of God.
No, not so ludicrous:
"48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place (hell) there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:48-51 NASB parenthesis mine)
In his teaching, Jesus says the hypocrite who is not ready for the return of the master goes to hell--the place of torment where unbelievers go. I say to the church that you are playing with fire if you think you can be a hypocrite and think you can't possibly go to hell.
chessman
Member
The verse most certainly is the angel speaking,
You ... Verse 11
Genesis 22:11-12 (LEB) And the angel of Yahweh called to him from heaven ... He [the angel] said; "For now I know ...
Plus, the point is that the angel told Abraham something so that Abraham would know what it was that was being said, not that God had need to know something about Abraham.
Psalm 69:5 (LEB) O God, you yourself know my foolishness,and my guilty deeds are not hidden from you.
All accounts are from the perspective if God.
In his teaching, Jesus says the
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I see. So you believe that God is not omniscient and had to test Abe in order to determine his attitude toward God. I certainly disagree. God is omniscient and that means He has always known everything.
I said this:
"The context of James 2:14-26 is about demonstrating one's faith. It begins with an example of that in v.15 and 16. The example is of a believer who is hypocritical. Not of one who is unsaved. It would be ludicrous to claim that anyone who is hypocritical is unsaved."
Those who use parables to inform their doctrine are on very shaky ground. Why? Because Jesus used parables to teach truths that would be difficult for people to understand. But your view is to take them nearly literally, which they AREN'T meant to be. And your view spiritualizes them. [This isn't a competition where the winner is determined by points scored.]
Even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand His parables, so He had to explain them to them.
Instead of using a parable, since you disagree with my view, please take the OP and show me how my explanation of the verses in James didn't mean what I explain, and how the verses I offered in support of my view of James doesn't support my view.
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Doulos Iesou
Member
Thanks for the detailed response on this Chessman. I don't have a personal investment on this issue as my theology on the matter remains intact regardless of this interpretation. However, I have always found the standard protestant understanding a bit lacking.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:21-24 (ESV)
Looking at the context, we have a rather curious example that doesn't really support the perspective you offered. The example is concerning Abraham obeying God in sacrificing his son, certainly he was not having to demonstrate his faith to his son, but rather it was God who commanded him to do so.
This it says in James, "fulfilled" the saying, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." This I think is the key portion of the text, and ties it in with Paul's teachings. People looked at Paul's teaching and thought that you could be justified by faith alone, yet James now clarifies the role that works play. That a future justification by works will be accomplished and will fulfill the initial justification by faith. It is very important that James used the Greek word δικαιοῦται as this word is primarily used by Paul especially in Romans and Galatians when talking about the role of faith in our justification. James now talks about how our faith produces works, which is also necessary for our justification.
Now the question stands, are James and Paul talking about the same kind of works?
Doulos Iesou
Member
Apparently God wanted it demonstrated through his works.
He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” Genesis 22:12 (ESV)
It was then on this basis that God blessed Abraham.
"And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore." Genesis 22:15-17 (ESV)
God then swears by himself, that he will bless him on the basis of him not withholding his son.
Didn't you guys even read one word of this?
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-not-by-faith-alone.57742/page-3#post-1045407
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-not-by-faith-alone.57742/page-3#post-1045407
Doulos Iesou
Member
The areas that I find lacking in this evaluation are here below.
1) Why does James use the word "justified" the same as Paul, which is only used in this context in regards to a judgment rendered by God? (See James 2:24)
2) Why does James refer to the story of Abraham's works being validated not by man, but by God in Genesis 22:12?
3) Why was the statement, "Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness," fulfilled in the act of not withholding his son from God?
These are key questions, and they are central to the context of what James is talking about.
In regards, to the references to the "someone," James is simply offering hypothetical situation.
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? James 2:14 (ESV)
The if, makes it a hypothetical statement, to illustrate the point between an admission of faith that is not accompanied by works. The question here is, can that faith save him? The answer we discover is no, that faith cannot save him. Mere belief is not salvific.
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! James 2:19 (ESV)
Of course demons do not believe the same way, they merely have correct theology about who God is, yet Abraham actively trusted in God which "was completed by his works."
I think one of the key issues at hand is whether or not the "works" Paul was referencing is the same as James.
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Romans 3:28 (ESV)
Interesting.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The works are not the justification but rather the evidence.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Just read every word of it and responded.
Doulos Iesou
Member
How then does this text say that a person is not justified by faith alone, but also by works?
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24 (ESV)
Perhaps this will help.
1) What are the works Paul is referencing?
2) What does justification mean?
For the points I made. There is justification in the eyes of men, as well as justification in the eyes of God. And I proved that James' point was being justified in the eyes of others. Believers who demonstrate their faith before others are hypocritical and are NOT justified in their eyes. Which is why they are called hypocrites by others.
Here is the Scripture:
Gen 22:11-12
11But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven andsaid, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing tohim; for now I know that you fear God, since you have notwithheld your son, your only son, from Me.” NASB
The one making the statement is from an angel of the Lord, not the Lord Himself. It would seem that now the angel knew something that he didn't know before. If you want to take James 2 reference about Abraham to be about God finally learning something, means you don't actually believe that God isn't omniscient; that He doesn't really know everything. Yet, Scripture says that He does.
I believe that every act of belief towards God is counted as righteousness. Please don't apply this verse to salvation, since Abraham was saved way before he took Issac to the mountain for sacrifice.
Yes sir. And I have answered them directly.
Yes, he is. What is the point? My point stands whether James was doing the challenging, or his use of a hypothetical.
Only until you can demonstrate that my explanation of the passage is in error can we actually discuss v.14. It seems you've made the mistake of assuming that James was thinking of "saving faith" just because the words touch in the sentence.
The first thing that must be determined is what kind of saving James had in mind. It wasn't salvific. That is clearly seen throughout his epistle by his term for his audience and what he says to them. In fact, a review of commentaries all agree that he wrote to Hebrew believers. Guess what: they are already saved.
This is a red herring. The only point of James here is that he notes that demons believe in monotheism. Which isn't saving faith, btw. Please note that. In fact, it's apples and oranges to even try to make any kind of statement about what demons believe and how that may affect them. Of course they believe that God is One, and that Jesus is the Christ, the Holy One of God. Why? They were there, in heaven, before any of them rebelled along with satan. So of course they would know that.
Christ didn't die for angels. So there is no issue at all about what saving faith is in regard to demons.
Doesn't matter. Paul's point was that works don't save. Only faith saves. James' point was that believers need to demonstrate their faith to others so they won't be hypocrites.I think one of the key issues at hand is whether or not the "works" Paul was referencing is the same as James. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Romans 3:28 (ESV) Interesting.
So, what James was trying to 'save' his audience from was being a hypocrite. And being called one.
iow, a believer who doesn't demonstrate his faith before others will be seen as and called a hypocrite. Those believers who follow James' point will be saved from being a hypocrite.
Until my point can be shown from the text to be in error, it stands. And all the verses I provided that supports my point.