A Person is Justified by Works and not by Faith Alone

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5,

Do you have other Scriptures that bear on the topic, and can you provide your interpretation of James 2:24 in it's context? Interested in your thoughts.

Hi Doulos Iesou,

I've been busy the past few days. In the context of James 2 James addressing how Christians are to treat others and concludes that ta mane is justified or not based on how he does that. For instance he says,

2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; {assembly: Gr. synagogue}
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: {in...: or, well, or, seemly}
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? (Jam 2:2-4 KJV)

and,

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? (Jam 2:15-16 KJV)

I think this is in line with what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount (Mat 5-7). I think this passage in James is pretty clear but is often understood in a manner that tries to reconcile it with a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on works of the Law.

 

[chessman]

Yet he claims, "now I know," which seems to under-gird your premise of it being necessary to demonstrate to us.

How does the fact that the angel was sent to give Abraham a message ("now I know...") under-gird my premise?

What do you think he meant when he said, "now I know"?

Exactly what he said. The angel told Abraham that God knew something.
Abraham needed that message. God didn't. In fact God knew the what, when and where of the events leading up to the altar scene (and every other scene), else Issac wouldn't have been there. For goodness sake, you couldn't have picked a better example to demonstrate that God knows the future (before it happened) than this one. If you think God learned something that day (versus Abraham learning something), prove it.

I've said this from the beginning post about this text. Yet you keep saying this text conflicts with my premise/points somehow. But for the second and last time, how so?

we have a citation for his obedience being the cause of the blessing, or reason for God making the blessing on Abraham.

Abraham's offspring (Issac) was his blessing. Abraham's obedience at the altar came well after he was blessed with Issac. Hmm, sounds like God knew Abraham's future to me. And Issac's as well. Abraham didn't know it, however, until God told him.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's ironic, since you're literally the first person I have ever seen present this perspective, whether through personal dialogue or reading commentaries. So it doesn't SCREAM hypocrisy to anyone else.

Maybe you missed post #45, which immediately followed my post where I explained James 2.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-not-by-faith-alone.57742/page-3#post-1045415

 

[JLB]

Maybe you missed post #45, which immediately followed my post where I explained James 2.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-not-by-faith-alone.57742/page-3#post-1045415

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' Matthew 25:41-43


'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;


Depart from Me... BECAUSE I was hungry and you gave Me no food.


The reason these were banished to hell, was BECAUSE they has no works of obedience to demonstrate the love of God.


A faith that does not have works is a faith that can not save.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

A faith that does not have works is a faith that can not save.JLB

That's correct. When someone like the idiot in 2:15 and 16 doesn't demonstrate their faith by observable deeds, it won't save them from the charge of hypocrisy.

What one claims needs to be backed up by deeds before they will be justified in the eyes of others.

Or do you believe that one can simply make a claim without any deeds, and should be justified in the eyes of others regarding what they claim???

[Trolling remark claiming to know what another believes.]

 

[JLB]

That's correct. When someone like the idiot in 2:15 and 16 doesn't demonstrate their faith by observable deeds, it won't save them from the charge of hypocrisy.

What one claims needs to be backed up by deeds before they will be justified in the eyes of others.

Or do you believe that one can simply make a claim without any deeds, and should be justified in the eyes of others regarding what they claim???

You know my position is true.

Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;

Depart from Me... BECAUSE I was hungry and you gave Me no food.

Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
Matthew 25:34-35

Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: BECAUSE I was hungry and you gave Me food; Matthew 25:34-35


The group that did the work of showing love by their action was welcomed into God's Kingdom on the day of Judgement.

The group that ignored this kingdom principle, that Jesus taught us, did not show any love, by denying the food to those who needed were cursed and sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell.

Because you gave Me food. = works

Because you gave Me no food. = no works


JLB

 

[JLB]

Basically, you think James is teaching the Hebrew Believers about hypocrisy, that to merely state a faith without works is hypocritical and God wants to save you from hypocrisy. You don't think this salvation is referring to eternal salvation, because why would James talk about salvation with people who are already saved?

People who believe the Gospel are saved at the end of the faith.

James clearly speaks of Justification, which means to be declared as righteous.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James is warning believers that believing without the action of obedience is done in vain, and can not bring forth the salvation of the soul, in the end.

Hypocrites will be assigned to the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


Abraham believed God, and obeyed God, and showed he obeyed by the action of obedience.

Jesus taught this very thing to us as well.

Depart from Me... BECAUSE I was hungry and you gave Me no food.

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9


James topic is salvation, because a person is justified by faith through obedience.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'd wonder if he would agree with your belief that it is "being saved from the charge of hypocrisy," that wasn't as clear at that point.

and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:51

 

[Doulos Iesou]

People who believe the Gospel are saved at the end of the faith.

James clearly speaks of Justification, which means to be declared as righteous.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James is warning believers that believing without the action of obedience is done in vain, and can not bring forth the salvation of the soul, in the end.

Hypocrites will be assigned to the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


Abraham believed God, and obeyed God, and showed he obeyed by the action of obedience.

Jesus taught this very thing to us as well.

Depart from Me... BECAUSE I was hungry and you gave Me no food.

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9


James topic is salvation, because a person is justified by faith through obedience.


JLB

I agree with your post JLB.

I think "justification" is a little more nuanced, but that's fine, I can approve of what you have posted. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:51

I'm not saying hypocrisy isn't bad. I'm arguing against Freegrace's assertion that when James as, "Can faith save him?" He means can faith save him eternally, rather than can faith save him from the charge of hypocrisy.

From what you posted above, you seem to agree with this assessment. Yes?

 

[JLB]

I'm not saying hypocrisy isn't bad. I'm arguing against Freegrace's assertion that when James as, "Can faith save him?" He means can faith save him eternally, rather than can faith save him from the charge of hypocrisy.

From what you posted above, you seem to agree with this assessment. Yes?

Yes, of course.

James clearly teaches us of a righteousness that is demonstrated by obeying God.

That is what by faith means; Obedience.

by faith Noah moved with godly fear and built the Ark.

Faith entered Noah when God spoke to him to build the Ark.

However if Noah doesn't move with godly fear and do the work of building the Ark, then his faith would have been dead.

Notice what the scripture indicates -

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

This is an illustration of the salvation that wrought by those who believe and obey.

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism

Jesus says it this way -

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

We show we believe by the work of being Baptized.


Work = the effort that obedience requires.


JLB

 

[john darling]

It's God's salvation so he can do whatever he wants with it, however I think he does have standards. Jesus' teachings (including the commands which require some kind of action in order to be obeyed) represent the values of Heaven.

If we don't act on those teachings, then we show that we're not interested in the values of Heaven in which case, why would God want to bring us into that kingdom for eternity? Jesus said, "JN 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

We become born again, like little children learning a completely new set of values to live by. We won't learn or grow if we don't act on those values.

I think there are several teachings about being careful not to brag or boast about our goodness, but they are not teachings against doing good. I think we could actually get to a point where we rejoice in good works.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

(Removed. A&T guidelines: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)

 

[john darling]

I've been thinking a bit about this concept of "believing" on/in Jesus. Probably the most famous Bible verse in recent history is:

JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But I think words like "in" and "on" confuse the issue on what it means to believe. For example, "Children who believe in their father learn faster than children who do not". I could interpret this as, "I believe my father is real" or "I believe my father is good a person" or "I believe my father loves me", but none of these examples of belief contributes to actual learning. They are subjective points of view which could be true whether the child is learning anything or not.

But if you remove the word, "in" the sentence takes on a different meaning. "Children who believe their parents learn faster than children who do not". If my father tells me, "brush your teeth every day to avoid cavities" and I believe him, then I will brush everyday. If I do not believe him, then I'm unlikely to follow his instructions and I will not learn the lesson.

The Bible describes something similar. At the end of John we see this verse:

JN 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The first half uses "on" while the second half does not, implying something more than theoretical belief. Here are more examples:

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Paul references Isaiah who makes a connection between believing and obeying.

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Peter also makes a connection between believing and obedience

JN 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
JN 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And here Jesus makes a comparison between belief and the "works of God".

If we believe Jesus, then we will act on his teachings.

 

[eddif]

Natural man is not the born again man. Discussing in and on will have differing meanings, according to your condition.

II Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

eddif

 

[JLB]

I've been thinking a bit about this concept of "believing" on/in Jesus. Probably the most famous Bible verse in recent history is:


But I think words like "in" and "on" confuse the issue on what it means to believe. For example, "Children who believe in their father learn faster than children who do not". I could interpret this as, "I believe my father is real" or "I believe my father is good a person" or "I believe my father loves me", but none of these examples of belief contributes to actual learning. They are subjective points of view which could be true whether the child is learning anything or not.

But if you remove the word, "in" the sentence takes on a different meaning. "Children who believe their parents learn faster than children who do not". If my father tells me, "brush your teeth every day to avoid cavities" and I believe him, then I will brush everyday. If I do not believe him, then I'm unlikely to follow his instructions and I will not learn the lesson.

The Bible describes something similar. At the end of John we see this verse:


The first half uses "on" while the second half does not, implying something more than theoretical belief. Here are more examples:


Paul references Isaiah who makes a connection between believing and obeying.



Peter also makes a connection between believing and obedience



And here Jesus makes a comparison between belief and the "works of God".

If we believe Jesus, then we will act on his teachings.

Belief and unbelief are interchangeable with obedience and disobedience.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


JLB

 

[Barbarian]

Jesus is very clear that He will judge us by our works. But absent faith and charity together, our works mean nothing at all. The works are saving, because they are based on our charity for others. And love is a gift of faith. You can't untangle them; they are part of a fabric.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil

 

[FreeGrace]

Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;

Depart from Me... BECAUSE I was hungry and you gave Me no food.

Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
Matthew 25:34-35

Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: BECAUSE I was hungry and you gave Me food; Matthew 25:34-35


The group that did the work of showing love by their action was welcomed into God's Kingdom on the day of Judgement.

The group that ignored this kingdom principle, that Jesus taught us, did not show any love, by denying the food to those who needed were cursed and sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell.

Because you gave Me food. = works

Because you gave Me no food. = no worksJLB

So you believe that people will go to hell for not feeding the hungry? That seems to be how liberal religion views the gospel. They deny the saving work of Christ on the cross and default to helping and feeding the poor. Is that your view of the gospel?

Let's consider your passage.

In v.31-32, Jesus separates the people, like a shepherd separates goats from sheep. iow, Jesus separates believers (saved people) from unbelievers (unsaved people).

Re: what you quoted (34-35), Jesus is noting what believers have done. This isn't a blanket statement of all believers, btw. As well, what unbelievers haven't done. But…what do you do with the religious liberals who deny the work of Christ, yet push their erroneous view of the gospel as being feeding the poor. Many unbelievers do that, yet have not believed in Christ for eternal life. According to your view, they should go to heaven.

We know the 'sheep' are believers because of v.37: "then the righteous…". Why are they called righteous? They have believed in Christ and have imputed righteousness.

As well, the goats are cast into the lake of fire for the SAME REASON those in Rev 20:15 are cast there: they weren't believers, they never had Christ's imputed righteousness, and they never received the irrevocable gift of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm not saying hypocrisy isn't bad. I'm arguing against Freegrace's assertion that when James as, "Can faith save him?" He means can faith save him eternally, rather than can faith save him from the charge of hypocrisy.

The evidence for hypocrisy is found in the example James gives in v.15-16. You've not shown otherwise.

In fact, v.18 further demonstrates the NEED for demonstration of one's faith in order for others to see it.

iow, stating your faith but without any evidence means that others cannot see your faith. James' point was to demonstrate one's faith to others, so you will be 'justified' in their eyes. I've already given many verses that support the fact that believers are to live their lives in such a way as to give unbelievers or others any reason to judge them. And no one has shown that those verses don't relate to James 2.

 

[FreeGrace]

James clearly teaches us of a righteousness that is demonstrated by obeying God.

No, James was teaching about one's FAITH that is to be demonstrated to others. And yes, by obeying God.

That is what by faith means; Obedience.

No, 'by faith' means because he trusted God. James' point was that those who have trusted God for their salvation are supposed to live by their faith (demonstrate it to others), lest they be charged with hypocrisy.