A Saviour unto Israel ?

[Son of Israel]

Being the seed of Abraham doesn't benefit me "in the flesh" anymore than it did Ishmael Verteran! LOL.
This is the ONLY TRUE SEED OF ABRAHAM... (you really need to know this it appears...)

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ

Now you know that all those in Christ are the ONLY Seed of Abraham. Whether Jew or Greek, bond or free, male or female.

The simplicity in Christ! Astounding isn't it

Son of Israel

I think you might want to study those verses you quoted again, and get all of what Paul was saying there, not just the part you want to use...

Galatians 3:14-29
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Here's Paul's main subject, The Promise. It's about 1) the blessing of Abraham, and 2) that it might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, and 3) it is a Promise of The Spirit through Faith.

That's three objects Paul gave in that, so we're not supposed to leave any one of them out of Paul's Message.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, 'And to seeds', as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Paul is covering object 1) the blessing of Abraham, in that 16th verse. That Promise did not come through Ishmael, nor any of Abraham's other kin, like his brothers Nahor or Haran, but only through Isaac. And from Isaac through Jacob whom God named Israel. That's what Paul is talking about there, and also in Romans 9:7 when he said, "...but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called." In other words, Paul is not speaking of the Promise going to others outside Israel just yet, but gets to that part later on in the chapter. Christ was to be born through a specific flesh seed, that of Israel. That was part of the Promise to Abraham, that God would send The Saviour through His literal seed, out of Abraham's loins.

Paul is also including the "promises" God made through Abraham to Israel. If we believe on Christ Jesus by Faith, then those promises first given to Abraham that flowed down to Israel MUST still be in effect today. They simply won't be found among un-believing Israel, as long as they are cut-off through unbelief.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(KJV)

The Old Covenant law, even though given 430 years after The Promise, cannot disannul The Promise by Faith. The Promise by Faith was always given first before the law.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

What is that "inheritance" Paul speaks of? It's God's Promise of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. It is not of the law, and never was. And notice God gave it to Abraham by Promise. That means God promises to give the Gift of Salvation, and to receive it one must believe. And it includes a specific inheritance which God declared through His servants the prophets.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

God's law was given because of Israel's trangressions. It included the Old Covenant religious dogma and ritual, animal sacrifices, etc. And when "the seed" would come, meaning Jesus of Nazareth The Christ, the Old Covenant was to be put away.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

God's law never was against The Promise of sending His Salvation through Jesus Christ. It's simply that the law could never accomplish eternal Life. The law is a different working altogether.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Only ONE born in the flesh was without sin, our Lord Jesus Christ. This is WHY we ALL have been put under sin, so that we might be saved through The Promise first given to Abraham, which is by Faith on Jesus Christ The Saviour.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I think those verses are pretty clear. We're not to be under the law since Christ came, but Paul says later in Galatians that is only IF... we are led by and walk by The Spirit, and not by our flesh.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(KJV)

All Paul is saying there, is that all those of Faith on Jesus Christ, are the spiritual children of Abraham through The Promise, and we all become one in Christ Jesus. He is NOT saying that God's promises to Israel are no more, for to think that would mean throwing away the very things God included in the inheritance part of The Promise to Abraham! Inheriting the earth with the wicked subdued is one of the things in that inheritance when Christ returns.

The only way the Promises to Israel are in effect is in Christ who is the ONE PROMISED SEED Of ABRAHAM. Gal 3:16.

When you comprehend that, we'll move on veteran.

 

[veteran]

The Message continues there about the tribes of Jacob's seed being restored with Salvation also going to Gentiles...

Isa 49:6
6 And He said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be My salvation unto the end of the earth.
(KJV)

Fulfilled...

(Joh 1:5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

(Joh 1:6) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

(Joh 1:7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

(Joh 1:8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

(Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

(Joh 1:10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

(Joh 1:11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Just because fleshly Israel didn't comprehend the fulfillment of Isaiah 49 doesn't mean it isn't fulfilled lol.

Not so fast. That has NOT been fulfilled yet today...

Isa 49:6
6 And He said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be My salvation unto the end of the earth.

The part about God giving Christ Jesus to be a light to the Gentiles part has been... fulfilled today, in the spiritual, even though believing Gentiles still have yet to reap the inheritance Christ will bring when He comes. They will not inherit without believing Israel. Both will inherit together at the same time under Christ when He returns.

But what about that part of "to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel', and the part "that Thou mayest be My salvation unto the end of the earth"? That is YET to be fulfilled today.

If you continue to read there in Isaiah 49, you'll discover that is about the restoration of the 12 tribes of Israel back to the lands of inheritance God promised their fathers. It is also about Christ's Salvation in EFFECT upon all the earth, meaning established with His rod of iron ruling over ALL nations on this earth, and not just Salvation preached. That of course has yet to come today, because not all nations today recognize Christ Jesus as KING and LORD. Many have yet to bow to Him, and confess Him as LORD. But they all will in that timing. Zion asks about her children also there in Isaiah 49, and who are those returning, bringing her sons and daughters in their arms and on their shoulders? It's the believing Gentiles, bringing the saved of Israel back to the Holy Land.

This is a really beautiful Message from The LORD in Isaiah. It's about the time of the reestablishing by Christ Jesus...

Isa 49:14-22
14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of My hands; thy walls are continually before Me.
17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, 'The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.'
21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, 'Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?'
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up Mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
(KJV)

 

[veteran]

This must also be like hot steam in the face of those who try to throw away Israel...

Matt 19:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(KJV)

It's amazing that some believers on Christ Jesus would be jealous of even Christ's promising His Apostles they will sit upon 12 thrones to judge the future twelve tribes of Israel in His literal Kingdom to come.

This is about the River of the waters of life in Revelation 22...

Ezek 47:6-12
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
(KJV)

Then what do you think is established in that area of the holy land in the future?


Ezek 47:13-21
13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up Mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazar-hatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazar-enan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
(KJV)

That is about the promised inheritance to Abraham per the Salvation Promise of Jesus Christ which God first gave to Abraham. No one can change that inheritance God gives the twelve tribes of Israel there. But it's obvious some think to be able to change it, but all they do is blow hot air. God will do this just as He says.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet says:

This must also be like hot steam in the face of those who try to throw away Israel...

Matt 19:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(KJV)

The regeneration here is speaking about Jesus resurrection and ascencion and How the disciples would reign with Him [eph 2:6] in the conversion of the elect, the twelve tribes of Israel are Jesus christ [ who is Israel] His children given to Him..which was typified by Jacob and His twelve Sons..

The Lord Jesus currently sits on His throne of Glory.. heb 8:

1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

lk 24 :26

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

If you cant discern from these scriptures that Jesus christ is upon the Throne of His Glory now, I feel sorry for you..

In the future it will be manifested at His second coming..

 

[glorydaz]

It's amazing that some believers on Christ Jesus would be jealous of even Christ's promising His Apostles they will sit upon 12 thrones to judge the future twelve tribes of Israel in His literal Kingdom to come.

I don't think believers are jealous, Veteran. And the Apostles sit on their 12 thrones now.
This is my take on that first portion of Ezekiel. When Jesus came He brought the living water, and whoever partakes shall be healed of their iniquity (by His stripes we are healed), and have life.

And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

The disciples went out as fishers of men...each after their kind (Jews and gentiles), but the miry places (desolate) will not be healed and given life.

10And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. 11But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

The righteous are the trees of righteousness whose leaves shall not fade, nor the fruit (of the Spirit), but shall bring forth new fruit from the Spirit...healing and growth.

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

[quote:ufptmtd2] 12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

[/quote:ufptmtd2]

O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

 

[veteran]

I'll be glad when our Lord Jesus does return, and then all the mystical interpretations of His Word that men's doctrines have devised will be no more.

When God's Word mentions literal areas on earth in a prophesy, like that Ezekiel 47 example of the River and the many trees on either side of it does, that is not a mystical meaning. Those areas mentioned there are literal. That River of the waters of life is literal. It's easy to know that because that's the River of Gen.2 that came out of God's Garden and fed four other rivers upon the earth. That's one of the ways God let us know that River is real, and not just some mystical wondering.

Many have succumbed to men's doctrines on how Christ's Salvation will be manifested in final, some totally leaving this earth out of it. So they MUST spiritualize or turn literal prophesy about it into some religious idea to try and make the Scripture fit their doctrines. That's what is being done today even with literal Scripture about Christ's second coming.

The "regeneration" Christ is speaking of to His Apostles in Matt.19 is not about the time when He was caught up to The Father's throne. It's about the future new heavens and a new earth time. Christ's Apostles are not now in Heaven upon thrones ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel. And they certainly are not here on earth doing that either. Some need to do a deeper study of just what throne that is meant which Christ will sit upon in Matt.19 too.

Notice the following events tied with that particular throne...

Matt 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(KJV)

That has yet to happen today. That's about everyone bowing the knee to Christ Jesus as LORD, and each soul appearing before His Judgment Seat. That's when Christ will separate His saints still alive on earth from the wicked.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet says:

I'll be glad when our Lord Jesus does return

I dont think you will be glad, especially if God keeps you in spiritual darkness as you now are..

 

[glorydaz]

vet says:

I'll be glad when our Lord Jesus does return

I dont think you will be glad, especially if God keeps you in spiritual darkness as you now are..

You have the guts to say such a thing after you went whining to the mods when I called you a child of the........oops, I can't say it with the "grace" you do. Let's just put it this way....you need to take a candle everywhere you go.

 

[glorydaz]

I'll be glad when our Lord Jesus does return, and then all the mystical interpretations of His Word that men's doctrines have devised will be no more.

When God's Word mentions literal areas on earth in a prophesy, like that Ezekiel 47 example of the River and the many trees on either side of it does, that is not a mystical meaning. Those areas mentioned there are literal. That River of the waters of life is literal. It's easy to know that because that's the River of Gen.2 that came out of God's Garden and fed four other rivers upon the earth. That's one of the ways God let us know that River is real, and not just some mystical wondering.

Many have succumbed to men's doctrines on how Christ's Salvation will be manifested in final, some totally leaving this earth out of it. So they MUST spiritualize or turn literal prophesy about it into some religious idea to try and make the Scripture fit their doctrines. That's what is being done today even with literal Scripture about Christ's second coming.

Veteran...Please don't ascribe an understanding given me by the Holy Spirit to some doctrine of men.
I was reading your verse...I remembered the one verse from Isaiah, I know about fruit, and explained it the way I saw it. I'm certainly not claiming it's a vision from God, but I'll be danged if I'll allow you to say it comes from some mystical interpretation from doctrines of men. It's one thing to disagree, but it's quite another to accuse me of not thinking for myself.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rom 11:28

Rom 11:

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

The unbelieving Jews were enemies of the gospel and to all who were true believers, both jew and gentile. For Paul himself as an unbelieving jew was a enemie to those who preached and believed the gospel [ 1 tim 1:13 ; acts 9], but as for the election of grace within Israel, these are loved for the promises made to fathers sake, the promises that there would be deliverance for ethnic jews is kept by God in the deliverance of the election of grace within the jewish people, as paul himself was an example of [ rom 11:1] So this verse here speaks as rom 9:6 contrasting the two Israels, which are Unbelieving Israel the enemies of the gospel [ permanently ] and the remnant which is according to the election of grace, who of course start out as enemies by nature as paul did , but will be delivered or converted to Jesus christ as Paul was.. The remnant along with the believing gentiles is how all Israel will be saved, and at the same time God being Faithful to ethnic Jews who are part of the election of grace..

 

[veteran]

I'll be glad when our Lord Jesus does return, and then all the mystical interpretations of His Word that men's doctrines have devised will be no more.

When God's Word mentions literal areas on earth in a prophesy, like that Ezekiel 47 example of the River and the many trees on either side of it does, that is not a mystical meaning. Those areas mentioned there are literal. That River of the waters of life is literal. It's easy to know that because that's the River of Gen.2 that came out of God's Garden and fed four other rivers upon the earth. That's one of the ways God let us know that River is real, and not just some mystical wondering.

Many have succumbed to men's doctrines on how Christ's Salvation will be manifested in final, some totally leaving this earth out of it. So they MUST spiritualize or turn literal prophesy about it into some religious idea to try and make the Scripture fit their doctrines. That's what is being done today even with literal Scripture about Christ's second coming.

Veteran...Please don't ascribe an understanding given me by the Holy Spirit to some doctrine of men.
I was reading your verse...I remembered the one verse from Isaiah, I know about fruit, and explained it the way I saw it. I'm certainly not claiming it's a vision from God, but I'll be danged if I'll allow you to say it comes from some mystical interpretation from doctrines of men. It's one thing to disagree, but it's quite another to accuse me of not thinking for myself.

Not accusing you of any thing bro. I'm just tired in general of all the spiritualizing of events done on this forum about literal things in God's Word, especially by those who like to act like they're studied. Only my last paragraph was in response to what you wrote. And I think you agree, Christ's Apostles are definitely going to be established with the saints for the future new heavens and a new earth timing.

 

[veteran]

Re: rom 11:28

Rom 11:

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

The unbelieving Jews were enemies of the gospel and to all who were true believers, both jew and gentile. For Paul himself as an unbelieving jew was a enemie to those who preached and believed the gospel [ 1 tim 1:13 ; acts 9], but as for the election of grace within Israel, these are loved for the promises made to fathers sake, the promises that there would be deliverance for ethnic jews is kept by God in the deliverance of the election of grace within the jewish people, as paul himself was an example of [ rom 11:1] So this verse here speaks as rom 9:6 contrasting the two Israels, which are Unbelieving Israel the enemies of the gospel [ permanently ] and the remnant which is according to the election of grace, who of course start out as enemies by nature as paul did , but will be delivered or converted to Jesus christ as Paul was.. The remnant along with the believing gentiles is how all Israel will be saved, and at the same time God being Faithful to ethnic Jews who are part of the election of grace..

Not really what Paul was teaching in Romans 11. Paul mentioned two different Israelite groups in Rom.11...

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

The Israelite election of Rom.11:1-5 obtained, but the rest of Israel was blinded by God. That's two different groups of Israelites. The group mentioned in Rom.11:1-5 obtained by election according to God's grace, and represent the Israel remnant that believed. But the rest of Israel...

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
(KJV)

That's the blinded of Israel in those 8-10 verses, a different Israel group, the unbelieving of Israel.

Paul's message in the rest of Rom.11 was about that latter group of Israelites that God blinded for our sakes to be enemies of The Gospel, but still are beloved for The Father's sake. Paul quoted the last part of Isaiah 59 about the time of Christ's coming. It was Paul's hope for that time their blindness would be taken away, and they would come to Christ Jesus. Thus it was Paul's hope that ALL Israel would be saved, like he said in Rom.11:26.

 

[glorydaz]

Not accusing you of any thing bro. I'm just tired in general of all the spiritualizing of events done on this forum about literal things in God's Word, especially by those who like to act like they're studied. Only my last paragraph was in response to what you wrote. And I think you agree, Christ's Apostles are definitely going to be established with the saints for the future new heavens and a new earth timing.

I think it's always best to keep an open mind so the Holy Spirit is free to enlighten us to whatever new truth he has for us. That isn't always easy to do. If it goes against God's Word or character, I toss it out. We know the apostles are with Christ, and we know Rev. speaks of 24 elders, so I figure they're among them. I also know this, the kingdom Jesus established when He came the first time will be brought to fruition at His second coming, continuing throughout eternity, and we'll go on into glory with Him. He will come again and gather His bride and judge the world. You and I part company on the 1000 yr. kingdom and ruling with a rod of iron, but those aren't essentials as far as I'm concerned. I look forward to His return, and looking at the state of this world, it's only a matter of time.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: rom 11:28

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
(KJV)

That's the blinded of Israel in those 8-10 verses, a different Israel group, the unbelieving of Israel.

Paul's message in the rest of Rom.11 was about that latter group of Israelites that God blinded for our sakes to be enemies of The Gospel, but still are beloved for The Father's sake. Paul quoted the last part of Isaiah 59 about the time of Christ's coming. It was Paul's hope for that time their blindness would be taken away, and they would come to Christ Jesus. Thus it was Paul's hope that ALL Israel would be saved, like he said in Rom.11:26.

Yes, the unbelieving Israel...there are no promises for them other than the Gospel that will be preached them by the Israel of God. The cross is the dividing line...many still stumble at the cross, but the only way to enter into the promised land is through belief in Jesus Christ.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet says:

Paul's message in the rest of Rom.11 was about that latter group of Israelites that God blinded for our sakes to be enemies of The Gospel, but still are beloved for The Father's sake.

No, those beloved of God are the foreknown of which paul was..Those as He , will be converted for the Fathers sake, now Paul's conversion was before many of the elect remnant that were blinded at the time that The New Covenant came into effect at the cross of Jesus Christ, but Paul was confident that many more ethnic Jews would be converted through the preaching of the gospel, by the gentile church..The issue here is not that God has rejected Jewish people, but the Nation as it being His Covenant People, which of course would include some Jewish people..There is always hope for a Jew as well as any other ethnicity as long as they are of the election of grace..But the nation having any more prominence in the program of God is no more, but the people Israel, whether Jew or gentile, continues forever..

 

[savedbygrace57]

When the fulness of the gentiles has come in, it will be no longer time for any to be grafted into the olive tree, at that time [ the end] all Israel shall be saved [ Not National Israel] but all Israel, the Israel of God, all them chosen in the True servant Israel, Jesus christ [ isa 49 ], this is clearly stated rom 11:26. Again Jesus is the Israel of whom the promises pertained [ gal 3:16] also see isa 49:1-3 of which it is said, has a sword in His mouth and His Name is Israel..Isa 49:

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me

from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

No doubt this is Jesus christ, and except one is in christ, they are not of the Israel of promise, which again is why paul writes rom 9:6. There was a national external covenant Israel, through the Law [ ex 20], and there is the eternal covenant Israel through election in Jesus christ before the world began, the foreknown rom 11:1..

Now if Jesus christ is the Israel per Isa 49, Hos 1 ; matt 2:15; and ps 80:8, then the church, His body, is the representation of the body of Israel..

When the last elect jew or gentile is brought into fellowship with Jesus christ their Head, then the end shall come..

 

[veteran]

I think it's always best to keep an open mind so the Holy Spirit is free to enlighten us to whatever new truth he has for us. That isn't always easy to do. If it goes against God's Word or character, I toss it out. We know the apostles are with Christ, and we know Rev. speaks of 24 elders, so I figure they're among them. I also know this, the kingdom Jesus established when He came the first time will be brought to fruition at His second coming, continuing throughout eternity, and we'll go on into glory with Him. He will come again and gather His bride and judge the world. You and I part company on the 1000 yr. kingdom and ruling with a rod of iron, but those aren't essentials as far as I'm concerned. I look forward to His return, and looking at the state of this world, it's only a matter of time.

So you don't believe the "thousand years" of Christ's de facto reign over the wicked, with all bowing the knee to Him as KING and LORD? Based on the conditions of that prophesy, I fail to see how that could ever be applied to this world today, or in the past. What Christ told the Church of Philadelphia in Rev.3, that He would make those of the "synagogue of Satan" bow the knee in worship at their feet is part of that timing.

And the conditons of what our Lord Jesus said to His Apostles about the thrones has very specific conditions attached to it also...

Matt 19:27-30
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
(KJV)

If it's a matter of deciding whether our Lord meant that in the spiritual sense only, then such an idea fails, because notice all the conditons attached to that timing. It's about rewards being handed out to the saints. Christ also included the time when His twelve Apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. That has yet to happen.

And remember the Matt.25 prophecy when Christ comes to sit upon the throne of His glory, and then all nations are brought before His Judgment Seat. That has yet to happen, for it's about His separating the goats (wicked) from His sheep, and His sheep inheriting the kingdom, which means to inherit this earth.

 

[glorydaz]

If it's a matter of deciding whether our Lord meant that in the spiritual sense only, then such an idea fails, because notice all the conditons attached to that timing. It's about rewards being handed out to the saints. Christ also included the time when His twelve Apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. That has yet to happen.

The same word in the Greek for regeneration is used in these two verses.

Greek word palingenesia ­ palin=again; gennao=to bring into being, to be born
Matt. 19:28 - "in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne..."
Titus 3:5 - "He saved us...by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit"

Those who have been born again (regenerated) and follow Jesus into glory will be with Him when He returns to manifest His judgment. We will see and know what He knows, and that His determinations are Holy and right.

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rewards will be given to those written in the Lamb's book of Life according to our obedience and according to our humility...last shall be first. We only have this time in the flesh to choose to enter into His rest. I don't believe there will be another 1000yr. period of time to get it right.

I see the church judging...discerning right from wrong, announcing the good news of the Kingdom, and interceding with prayer while we're here on earth.

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

This is the time for all men to choose. This is when Jesus rules with a rod of iron, convicting men of their sin through His body as we smite them with the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit is reproving the world of sin, imbuing the church with the righteousness of the law, and judging hearts today. Satan was judged at the cross. We only await the day of the Lord when all His judgments and rewards are made manifest to all men. You can be sure every knee will bow on that great day. Even the world's worst sinners will be brought to their knees at the judgment seat of Christ.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Titus 1:14

Titus 1:14

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The whole concoction of a future restoration of National Israel is premised on mere speculation and spiritual blindness to the truth; for If God did make such a promise, then the promise would be unconditional, and if so, then how and why did He cut her off as branches from the covenant olive tree because of their unbelief ? For that would be absurd and contradicts the very nature of God in being Faithful to His covenant promises in spite of our unbelief per 2 tim 2:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

But yet the false teaching of today's dispensationalist says just that, that Israel [ the nation] has been rejected only temporarily due to unbelief !

 

[veteran]

The same word in the Greek for regeneration is used in these two verses.
Greek word palingenesia ­ palin=again; gennao=to bring into being, to be born
Matt. 19:28 - "in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne..."
Titus 3:5 - "He saved us...by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit"

Right, and that's why our Lord Jesus said in John 5 those in Him don't go into condemnation, but pass from death unto life. The Titus 3:5 usage is about the "new creature" status inside us, the receiving of The Holy Spirit. That is how Christ's Kingdom has come already now in The Spirit only. But His physical kingdom to come on earth has yet to be manifested, for that's about the future glory of the sons of God with the redemption of our body (Rom.8). It's importance to realize that difference.

Those who have been born again (regenerated) and follow Jesus into glory will be with Him when He returns to manifest His judgment. We will see and know what He knows, and that His determinations are Holy and right.

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rewards will be given to those written in the Lamb's book of Life according to our obedience and according to our humility...last shall be first. We only have this time in the flesh to choose to enter into His rest. I don't believe there will be another 1000yr. period of time to get it right.

But the time of the literal 'rest' and rewards is not yet, for we are to remain working in the field until that day of His coming. The "thousand years" of Rev.20 hasn't even begun yet, for there's specific conditions for it to manifest per God's Word also, and one of them is Christ ruling on earth with His saints of the "first resurrection". That resurrection hasn't even happenned yet. It's about a literal resurrection you know, the raising of the asleep saints joined with the saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming, i.e, post-rapture. So it's not Biblical to apply today's time to that still future "thousand years" period.

I see the church judging...discerning right from wrong, announcing the good news of the Kingdom, and interceding with prayer while we're here on earth.

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

This is the time for all men to choose. This is when Jesus rules with a rod of iron, convicting men of their sin through His body as we smite them with the Word of God.

Yes, today in this world is the time for all men to choose, with The Gospel being preached, etc. But that doesn't prove we're in the "thousand years" period of Rev.20 yet. That "rod of iron" of Revelation and the Psalms is for when Christ rules over all the wicked, the resurrection of the unjust. And as written, His saints rule with Him over all nations in that time, on this earth, which is also the time of the wicked bowing the knee to Christ, especially the "synagogue of Satan". That has yet to occur. All one need do is look at today's world to see that isn't taking place yet. That future reign will be a literal reign during that "thousand years"; it's not some spiritual metaphor for this time today.

The Holy Spirit is reproving the world of sin, imbuing the church with the righteousness of the law, and judging hearts today. Satan was judged at the cross. We only await the day of the Lord when all His judgments and rewards are made manifest to all men. You can be sure every knee will bow on that great day. Even the world's worst sinners will be brought to their knees at the judgment seat of Christ.

[/quote]

That's just it, that "day of the Lord" is the "thousand years" period of Rev.20. It hasn't come yet.