A Saviour unto Israel ?

[savedbygrace57]

vet:

Paul obtained MERCY from our Lord Jesus from the sin of his persecution of The Church, because as written, Saul (Paul) did it "ignorantly in unbelief." Not only did Saul (Paul) not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was The Christ, he even sought to persecute anyone of that time that did believe Jesus was The Christ. Our Lord counted him as being faithful after... He converted him.

I already know this, this passage in fact contradicts your assumption..unbelief cannot prevent the salvation of the elect..God merely gives them Faith to believe where there was unbelief, paul is an example of that..

Paul says that faith and love [ to Jesus christ] was abundant towards him 1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Jesus merely converts his unbelieving elect into believers by His abunadant grace stored up in Him for them..

jn 1:

16And of his fulness have all we[the elect] received, and grace for grace.

 

[veteran]

vet:

Paul obtained MERCY from our Lord Jesus from the sin of his persecution of The Church, because as written, Saul (Paul) did it "ignorantly in unbelief." Not only did Saul (Paul) not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was The Christ, he even sought to persecute anyone of that time that did believe Jesus was The Christ. Our Lord counted him as being faithful after... He converted him.

I already know this, this passage in fact contradicts your assumption..unbelief cannot prevent the salvation of the elect..God merely gives them Faith to believe where there was unbelief, paul is an example of that..

Paul says that faith and love [ to Jesus christ] was abundant towards him 1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Jesus merely converts his unbelieving elect into believers by His abunadant grace stored up in Him for them..

jn 1:

16And of his fulness have all we[the elect] received, and grace for grace.

The only contradiction on this matter is your false belief that today's unbelieving Israel is cast off forever, which Paul did showed there's reason to believe God will turn them back to Him through Christ in final. It's your assumptions on that which contradict Apostle Paul and much of God's Word, because nobody but the devil and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish. Even Judah Iscariot has not yet been judged by our Lord Jesus.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet:

The only contradiction on this matter is your false belief that today's unbelieving Israel is cast off forever,

All unbelievers are cut off forever, jew or gentile..

 

[veteran]

Re: Romans 11 :32

Now by God doing this, the gentiles [ the church] would now be instrumental of God, to call by the preaching of the gospel, the elect Jews of the nation into fellowship with Jesus Christ, as well as the elect gentiles too..In other words, now that national Israel is cut off, the elect Jews in that nation will come to faith in Christ through the preaching of the church, which would now be mainly gentiles. So God has by succession plans concluded both Jew and gentiles under unbelief, in order to Have mercy upon all, all people groups..

There's that replacement heresay of Dispensationalism again, the false idea that Christ's Church is now a Gentile Church which believing Israel must bow to in order to be saved.

Apostle Paul showed just the opposite of that idea...

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(KJV)

A study in the Book of Acts shows Christ's early Church was made up of both Israelites and Gentiles as one body. The promises continued through Israel first, which included The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and then was preached to the Gentiles by Christ's Apostles, in that order. It's Gentiles that MUST come to Christ Jesus through the promises first given to Israel, not the other way around, and thus Paul's mention of "the commonwealth of Israel" including Gentiles that were at one time without Christ.

Believing Israel continued in those promises first given; that's why all of Christ's chosen Apostles were Israelites by birth. It's also why Paul was chosen to preach The Gospel to the Gentiles.

 

[veteran]

I assume several here believe in the "secret rapture" idea that started in 1830's Great Britain. I certainly think Savedbygrace57 is on that belief. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The "secret rapture" idea is tied to doctrines of Dispensationalism. It sought to create a separation even between Israelites and Gentiles that believe on Christ. It also is part of the dual-Gospel movement, like one Gospel to Israel, and another Gospel to Gentiles, claiming Apostle Paul made such separation about the 'mystery' of Salvation going to the Gentiles.

But per God's Word, there is only one Church under Christ Jesus, made up of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles as one body. Neither group is to be separate. And our Lord Jesus made it plain that His coming is after the tribulation He spoke of, which is the opposite of the "secret rapture" idea which John Darby and Scofield taught starting in the 1800's.

This is why Dispensationalists often teach that the Israelite 144,000 of Rev.7 are "left behind" on earth while the Gentile Church is raptured out before the tribulation in secret.

If those on the Dispensationalist movement treat even believing Israel separate like that, then it's no wonder why some on that doctrine treat unbelieving Israel today like they cannot ever be saved.

 

[samuel]

The Apostle Paul best summarized the fate of Zion, Israel.

"I say then, God has not rejected His people has He? May it never be! . God gave them a spirit of stupor. I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall did they? May it never be! But by their transgressions salvation has come to the Gentiles to make them jealous. Do not be arrogant, remember that it is not you that supports the root but the root supports you. a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion. He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins .for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" Romans 11:1, 8, 11,18,25,26, 27, 29

:yes

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet says:

I

assume several here believe in the "secret rapture" idea that started in 1830's Great Britain. I certainly think Savedbygrace57 is on that belief. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong, and why the diversion ? If you want start a thread on the secret rapture..

 

[glorydaz]

The Apostle Paul best summarized the fate of Zion, Israel.

"I say then, God has not rejected His people has He? May it never be! . God gave them a spirit of stupor. I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall did they? May it never be! But by their transgressions salvation has come to the Gentiles to make them jealous. Do not be arrogant, remember that it is not you that supports the root but the root supports you. a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion. He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins .for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" Romans 11:1, 8, 11,18,25,26, 27, 29

:yes

The Deliverer did come. Now, whosoever will may come.
God doesn't save nations...he saves individuals.
Unbelief.....One must believe to be saved.

 

[samuel]

Choosing to be willfully dumb, or stupid, will not win you any points with God or me.

 

[glorydaz]

Choosing to be willfully dumb, or stupid, will not win you any points with God or me.

If you're speaking to me, perhaps you need to rethink the point system.

I don't post to please you or anyone else. I speak my mind just like you do...but I'm nicer than your are. :biglaugh

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus christ is only a Saviour to Israel, the chosen of God, His body..

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Jews erroneously thought (as many do today) that the promises made to Abraham regarding his seed respected all of his descendants. Their boast was "we be Abraham’s seed" (John 8:33), to which Christ replied, "If ye were Abraham’s children ye would do the works of Abraham" (verse 39 and see Romans 4:12-13). God’s rejection of Ishmael and Esau was proof that the promises were not made to the natural descendants as such.

The choice of Isaac and Jacob showed that the promise was limited to an elect line. "The children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted [regarded] as the seed. For this is the word of promise. At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son (Rom. 9:8,9). The "children of God" and the "children of promise" are one and the same, whether they be Jews or Gentiles. As Isaac was born supernaturally, so are all of God’s elect (John 1:13). As Isaac, on that account, was heir of the promised blessing, so are Christians (Gal. 4:29; 3:29). "Children of the promise" are identical with "the heirs of promise" (Heb. 6:17, and cf. Rom. 8:17). All the everlasting promises made to Israel was not made to Israel of the flesh, but Israel of promise, and these promises found their fulfillment in Jesus christ ( 2 cor 1:20; gal 3:16).

 

[savedbygrace57]

And So all Israel shall be saved !

Rom 11:


25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All Israel is saved by God's Mystery plan and purpose, and not according to the natural mind of men.

Israel was saved by God's hardening of non elect jews, from Covenant Israel [ which were ethnic jews who were genuine believers in the messiah] and the grafting in of gentiles believers into Covenant Israel, and in this manner all Israel shall be saved, the Israel of God !

This is confirmed by the mentioning of the gentiles as entering in eiselthein


And what are they entering into ? The Covenant Israel, the Commonwealth of Israel eph 2:

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

The ethnic jews who were saved !

What Paul is is saying, is that Israel of promise is being saved contrary to what people think, its not by God saving all ethnic jews, but by the breaking off of the unsaved jews, and the grafting in of the saved gentiles into fellowship with the saved jews, is how God planned and purpose to save all Israel. This was a Mystery !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 11:24 & Eph 2:11-13
Rom 11:

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

eph 2:

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;


12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man [Or Israel], so making peace;

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God [Israel];


The Israel that God loves and foreknew use to be represented by both saved and reprobated jews in the Nation of Israel, but now having broken off the reprobated jews [ The physical nation of Israel as a whole] and grafting in the saved gentiles, the Israel of God is represented by both saved jews and saved gentiles, instead of saved jews and reprobated jews.

​

 

[savedbygrace57]

The scripture is full of the evidence that both jew and gentile would be the One People of God, the Israel of God, a Spiritual People, with no ethnic distinction.

That both would be a union of believers in Christ gal 3:

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This was predicted in the book of gen 3:


15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed [Christ Gal 3:16]; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Later in the book of genesis we have regarding the Sons of Noah this promise Gen 9:


26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Japheth, a patriarch of the gentiles,, would dwell in the tents of shem, the father of the semitic race.

This was fulfilled with Christ death eph 2:


12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

​

 

[savedbygrace57]

According to scripture who is Israel ? Truly in scripture Israel can be defined in three ways. We know for one it means the physical nation of Israel, and taken alone they are not the Children of God rom 9:8. However in the scripture truth Israel is also applied to Jesus Christ the Son of God i.e Isa 49:3; hos 11:1 cp matt 2:15; and thirdly Israel refers to believers that belong to Christ, which are the seed of Abraham and Heirs according to Promise..

Just like Ishmael could not be a heir as a seed of Abraham per gal 4:

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So not all of that nation of Israel was the Israel that was heir, heir of God and joint heir with Christ.

Gal 3:29 rom 9:8 rom 2:28-29..

Now notice this statement rom 11:

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

It should not be hard to conclude that a physical nation is not the subject as to being grafted into..But now the gentiles were grafted into the same tree.

Now the branches that God removed were the majority of the jews that comprised the physical nation, and gentiles as wild branches were grafted into the olive tree [Spiritual Israel] and now share the future inheritance with the saved patriarchs, the True Israel of God, the promises made to them, hence Paul's statements eph 3:

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.​

 

[Drew]

According to scripture who is Israel ? Truly in scripture Israel can be defined in three ways. We know for one it means the physical nation of Israel, and taken alone they are not the Children of God rom 9:8. However in the scripture truth Israel is also applied to Jesus Christ the Son of God i.e Isa 49:3; hos 11:1 cp matt 2:15; and thirdly Israel refers to believers that belong to Christ, which are the seed of Abraham and Heirs according to Promise.

I entirely agree with this analysis.

I would especially underscore the importance of understanding Jesus as taking on the destiny of the nation of Israel - understanding this truth makes sense of so much of the redemption story.

We disagree on the matter of "pre-destination", but I am with you 110 % on this summary analysis of how the term "Israel" is used in the Bible.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Now that its established that scripturally there are up to three different Israels #1. The physical nation which is formulated by all the physical seed of Abraham brought out of the land of egypt and constituted a nation at Sinai ex 20. Note, within this nation was also spiritual Israel, True Believers in Christ..

#2 The Lord Jesus Christ, the servant of Jehovah Isa 49:

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Hos 11:1 and matt 2:15

1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Scripture refers this to Christ Matt 2:

15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Jn 15:

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

ps 80:

8Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

This vine is also called my Firstborn Son ex 4:

22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

All the above is scripture witness that Jesus Christ is Israel..


#3. All believers who belong to Christ [Israel] are Israel or the seed of Abraham, the children of promise gal 3:

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The physical jews from Abraham are not the children of promise Israel, but His spiritual children through Christ His seed are, which is the Israel of God which belongeth all the promises..
​

 

[Eventide]

Sadly enough, many Christians today ignore the mystery pertaining to the nation of Israel and how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

Paul tells us plainly that those who do ignore the mystery will become wise in their own conceits.

The gospel of Matthew (Ch 19) shows us that His Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones and will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel when the Lord comes again in His glory..

But many people (even many professing Christians) hate the nation of Israel and refuse to see its future restoration and salvation according to the scriptures.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Now out of the 3 different Israels that scripture confirms which Israel are the promises to ? This includes the land promise as well.

Lets first look at the promises made to Abraham, who is the representative head of both physical and spiritual seed of Israel the Father of all who believe per rom 4:

16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, [Believing Israel]

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Now as we observe these promises to Abraham it is very important to see that there are two types of promises made to Abraham, those that included Him in the promise and those that did not include him.

Now lets look at one of the covenant promises to Him but did not include him !

Gen 12:


6And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

This is a promise to give Abraham's physical seed the land of canaan..But this promise was not given to Abraham personally and it was not stated in this promise how long the physical seed of Abram would have this land..

The promise of Abraham's physical seed receiving land without Him appears again in gen 15:

18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

And again its mentioned by Abraham gen 24:


7The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

And again, in these references it never speaks of Abraham being made a promise to have this land, but His seed, physical descendants, and not once is it said by God for how long they would have this physical land of canaan...

Now another covenant promise was made to Abraham in scripture which did include Him in the promise Gen 12:

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gen 13:

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

Notice this promise God specifically says to Abram that He would give it personally to Abraham, and so the words to thee is used..

For this promise is to both Abraham and His seed both and the possession of this land is eternal..

This covenant promise is spoken again in gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

For this is also confirmed to Isaac and Jacob Gen 26:

1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen 28:

12And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

13And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

And so thats why the writer of Hebrews writes that Isaac and Jacob were heirs together of the same promise Heb 11:

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

And this land, inheritance which they sought as a result of the promise was heavenly:

Heb 11:

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This land or country they sought was not a physical plot of land in the middle east, but a heavenly hope, for as a result of this promise they considered themselves strangers and pilgrims of this earth, because their land promise, their country promise was heavenly..

BTW, it is this heavenly hope of the Fathers that Paul meant here in acts 26:


6And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

8Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Amen, the Land, the Country thast the True Fathers hoped for, was only to be attained through the resurrection of the dead, a heavenly hope, the same peter writes about 1 pet 1:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

This is the same promise that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had from those promises made them personally in genesis..
​