A Saviour unto Israel ?

[veteran]

Re: Titus 1:14

Titus 1:14

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The whole concoction of a future restoration of National Israel is premised on mere speculation and spiritual blindness to the truth; for If God did make such a promise, then the promise would be unconditional, and if so, then how and why did He cut her off as branches from the covenant olive tree because of their unbelief ? For that would be absurd and contradicts the very nature of God in being Faithful to His covenant promises in spite of our unbelief per 2 tim 2:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

But yet the false teaching of today's dispensationalist says just that, that Israel [ the nation] has been rejected only temporarily due to unbelief !

Pulling out one verse from God's Word to apply whatever meaning one wants to assign to it is not rightly dividing God's Truth per 2 Tim.2:15.

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)

It's obvious some who call theirselves Christian today are merciless when it comes to God's Plan for the seed of Israel.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet:

Pulling out one verse from God's Word to apply whatever meaning one wants to assign to it is not rightly dividing God's Truth per 2 Tim.2:15.

so you are one who does not believe in Gods faithfulness and that unbelief does not hinder it..

2 tim 2:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Thats why God was Faithful in the conversion of saul, who at first believed not, but His unbelief was cancelled out by God giving Him Faith 1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul believed through grace as He teaches here acts 18:

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace

 

[veteran]

vet:

Pulling out one verse from God's Word to apply whatever meaning one wants to assign to it is not rightly dividing God's Truth per 2 Tim.2:15.

so you are one who does not believe in Gods faithfulness and that unbelief does not hinder it..

2 tim 2:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Thats why God was Faithful in the conversion of saul, who at first believed not, but His unbelief was cancelled out by God giving Him Faith 1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul believed through grace as He teaches here acts 18:

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace

Who are you to question God's Will? What of the 7,000 God told Elijah He had preserved unto Himself?

An even better example, just what was Saul (Paul) doing on the road to Damascus when Christ struck him down, and intervened directly to convert him? Saul (Paul) was in that same trap of following the traditions of the Jews that got in the way of accepting Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour. Saul even had a letter of authority in his pocket to hunt down Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem for trial. Can't you realize that many unbelieving Jews today are in that same kind of unbelief state as Saul (Paul) was then? Saul (Paul) believed in God, so he was certainly no atheist, yet he was under that blindness he spoke of in Romans 11, which he said God Himself did. God blinded, God removed blindness, it's simple.

So what would have happenned if Saul (Paul) said no to our Lord Jesus when He struck him down? What if Saul had determined to still hold to the traditions of the Jews instead? He would have remained cut off. But don't you think Christ's direct Divine intervention had a huge... effect upon Saul's conversion to Christ? You bet it did. What's to say our Heavenly Father is not going to do that for the unbelieving Jews in the future, ESPECIALLY if their blindness is from His Hand in the first place so His Salvation could go to the Gentiles? This is why Paul left the condition of their Salvation open at the end of Romans 11, and he did that because of what's written in the OT prophets concerning the restoration of Israel.

This is the reason why we are not to judge others to condemnation, for we don't have that authority. Only Christ has been given that Authority. NONE born in the flesh have even been judged by Christ to perish yet.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet said:

Who are you to question God's Will?

I questioned you, and you avoided the question, here it is again..

so you are one who does not believe in Gods faithfulness and that unbelief does not hinder it..

2 tim 2:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Thats why God was Faithful in the conversion of saul, who at first believed not, but His unbelief was cancelled out by God giving Him Faith 1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul believed through grace as He teaches here acts 18:

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace

Now do you believe God temporaily set aside National israel for unbelief ? based upon this scripture rom 11:

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off,

So quit avoiding scripture and stand up and answer honestly, do you believe the nation was cut off because of unbelief, yes or no..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 11:

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

The all Israel that will be saved is the all Israel for which the deliverer came out of zion [ which is Christ the messiah first coming] isa 59:

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

The all Israel for whom He went to the cross to redeem per ps 130:

7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

isa 44:


21Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel,[see isa 49:3] thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

22I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

23Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel

lk 1:

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

This is not carnal Israel, but all the Israel of God, chosen not by race but by Grace in the Israel of God, Jesus Christ. The New Covenant with Israel is inclusive of the fullness of the gentiles and when that is completed, then cometh to pass, and so all Israel shall be saved, by the deliverer that came out of zion..

This was fulfilled during Jesus Christ first coming, and during His ministry then, He was the King that cometh unto zion..

Matt 21:

1And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,

2Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

3And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

4All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

5Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.

6And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

This turning of Jacob from ungodliness was accomplished by Jesus death on the cross, for it was used of God to turn many ethnic Jews of Israel to God, peter states here acts 3:


25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. cp with rom 11:26

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

 

[glorydaz]

The same word in the Greek for regeneration is used in these two verses.
Greek word palingenesia ­ palin=again; gennao=to bring into being, to be born
Matt. 19:28 - "in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne..."
Titus 3:5 - "He saved us...by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit"

Right, and that's why our Lord Jesus said in John 5 those in Him don't go into condemnation, but pass from death unto life. The Titus 3:5 usage is about the "new creature" status inside us, the receiving of The Holy Spirit. That is how Christ's Kingdom has come already now in The Spirit only. But His physical kingdom to come on earth has yet to be manifested, for that's about the future glory of the sons of God with the redemption of our body (Rom.8). It's importance to realize that difference.
I do realize the difference...where we disagree is what happens when that time comes.

Those who have been born again (regenerated) and follow Jesus into glory will be with Him when He returns to manifest His judgment. We will see and know what He knows, and that His determinations are Holy and right.

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rewards will be given to those written in the Lamb's book of Life according to our obedience and according to our humility...last shall be first. We only have this time in the flesh to choose to enter into His rest. I don't believe there will be another 1000yr. period of time to get it right.

But the time of the literal 'rest' and rewards is not yet, for we are to remain working in the field until that day of His coming. The "thousand years" of Rev.20 hasn't even begun yet, for there's specific conditions for it to manifest per God's Word also, and one of them is Christ ruling on earth with His saints of the "first resurrection". That resurrection hasn't even happenned yet. It's about a literal resurrection you know, the raising of the asleep saints joined with the saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming, i.e, post-rapture. So it's not Biblical to apply today's time to that still future "thousand years" period. Jesus is our Sabbath rest....we enter into it when we believe on Him.
I'll address this below..
[quote:xqc3s02a]I see the church judging...discerning right from wrong, announcing the good news of the Kingdom, and interceding with prayer while we're here on earth.

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

This is the time for all men to choose. This is when Jesus rules with a rod of iron, convicting men of their sin through His body as we smite them with the Word of God.

Yes, today in this world is the time for all men to choose, with The Gospel being preached, etc. But that doesn't prove we're in the "thousand years" period of Rev.20 yet. That "rod of iron" of Revelation and the Psalms is for when Christ rules over all the wicked, the resurrection of the unjust. And as written, His saints rule with Him over all nations in that time, on this earth, which is also the time of the wicked bowing the knee to Christ, especially the "synagogue of Satan". That has yet to occur. All one need do is look at today's world to see that isn't taking place yet. That future reign will be a literal reign during that "thousand years"; it's not some spiritual metaphor for this time today.
We don't "see" it because the peace He left us is not as the world gives.
He rules not according to our human understanding.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

The Holy Spirit is reproving the world of sin, imbuing the church with the righteousness of the law, and judging hearts today. Satan was judged at the cross. We only await the day of the Lord when all His judgments and rewards are made manifest to all men. You can be sure every knee will bow on that great day. Even the world's worst sinners will be brought to their knees at the judgment seat of Christ.

That's just it, that "day of the Lord" is the "thousand years" period of Rev.20. It hasn't come yet.[/quote:xqc3s02a]
The first resurrection you refer to can't be when the Lord comes for His bride, because there will be some still alive that won't be resurrected but translated from life into glorified bodies.
To understand this, we need to look at what the second death means. Our first death is not our physical death but the spiritual death we inherited from Adam. The second death is for those who have not been written in the Lamb's book of life. When we're born again, we have been raised from death into life...that is the first resurrection.

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[veteran]

vet said:

Who are you to question God's Will?

I questioned you, and you avoided the question, here it is again..

so you are one who does not believe in Gods faithfulness and that unbelief does not hinder it..

What, I didn't avoid your question, I answered it but you still don't get it. Of course unbelief will hinder one's Salvation through Christ. You've never seen me write otherwise on this forum. But the real question is, can God remove one's blindness and unbelief, and cause them to believe?

Was there ever a time when you or others did not believe, but then heard The Gospel and had Faith, and believed? I think you'd say yes to that. Well, that's still the state unbelieving Israel is in today. It's not up to us to say God won't remove their blindness with their coming to Christ Jesus.

2 tim 2:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Thats why God was Faithful in the conversion of saul, who at first believed not, but His unbelief was cancelled out by God giving Him Faith 1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Saul (Paul) was converted by Christ DIRECTLY. Christ had to remove his blindness first. He did not believe Jesus of Nazareth was The Christ prior to that road to Damascus event. And you yourself admit that, because you said, "...but his unbelief was cancelled out by God giving him Faith."

Why was Saul (Paul) among the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace per Rom.11:1-5, and not of the latter group of unbelieving Israel in Rom.11?

 

[whirlwind]

Who are you to question God's Will? What of the 7,000 God told Elijah He had preserved unto Himself?

An even better example, just what was Saul (Paul) doing on the road to Damascus when Christ struck him down, and intervened directly to convert him? Saul (Paul) was in that same trap of following the traditions of the Jews that got in the way of accepting Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour. Saul even had a letter of authority in his pocket to hunt down Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem for trial. Can't you realize that many unbelieving Jews today are in that same kind of unbelief state as Saul (Paul) was then? Saul (Paul) believed in God, so he was certainly no atheist, yet he was under that blindness he spoke of in Romans 11, which he said God Himself did. God blinded, God removed blindness, it's simple.

So what would have happenned if Saul (Paul) said no to our Lord Jesus when He struck him down? What if Saul had determined to still hold to the traditions of the Jews instead? He would have remained cut off. But don't you think Christ's direct Divine intervention had a huge... effect upon Saul's conversion to Christ? You bet it did. What's to say our Heavenly Father is not going to do that for the unbelieving Jews in the future, ESPECIALLY if their blindness is from His Hand in the first place so His Salvation could go to the Gentiles? This is why Paul left the condition of their Salvation open at the end of Romans 11, and he did that because of what's written in the OT prophets concerning the restoration of Israel.

This is the reason why we are not to judge others to condemnation, for we don't have that authority. Only Christ has been given that Authority. NONE born in the flesh have even been judged by Christ to perish yet.

:yes :amen

 

[veteran]

Rom 11:

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

The all Israel that will be saved is the all Israel for which the deliverer came out of zion [ which is Christ the messiah first coming] isa 59:

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

The all Israel for whom He went to the cross to redeem per ps 130:

7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

You're jumping forward to far in prophecy, what Apostle Paul said about The Deliverer coming to Zion and turning transgression from Jacob is about Christ SECOND COMING, not His first coming.

Ps 14:7
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of His people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
(KJV)

That particular captivity there is about the restoration of Israel, like the joining of the two houses of Israel per the two sticks prophecy in Ezekiel 37. That has yet to occur today.

Here's the specific OT Scripture Paul quoted in Rom.11...

Isa 59:19-20
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and His glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

What were we shown in Rev.9 and Rev.12 about the flood metaphor in connection with the dragon persecuting the woman (Israel) for 1260 days? That's about the end of days, which is when Christ's second coming happens, when He will once again come to Zion (Jerusalem), as written in Zechariah 14 and Acts 1, and Psalms 2.

Isa 11:10-13
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
(KJV)


Jer 23:5-8
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, Which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, Which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.(KJV)

That has yet to happen, for as even the Jeremiah example shows, Christ Jesus is Who will do that, but at His second coming in final. The Book of Jeremiah is not just about Israel's rebellion and God bringing the king of Babylon upon to destroy Jerusalem in that time, but it also contains many Scriptures about Israel's future restoration under Christ in final.

Do you deny Israel's restoration back to the land given in Ezekiel 47? If you do, then it's no wonder you appear to want to drop off much of the end of Paul's teaching in Romans 11.

Here's another prophecy about this that is still yet to be fulfilled...

Amos 9:8-15
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

Now there's the unbelieving of Israel that you're talking about, those who still rebel against God and will remain cut off. Do we know who those are yet? No, because Christ's return is not yet, but near.

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by My name, saith the LORD That doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of My people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
(KJV)

 

[glorydaz]

Was there ever a time when you or others did not believe, but then heard The Gospel and had Faith, and believed? I think you'd say yes to that. Well, that's still the state unbelieving Israel is in today. It's not up to us to say God won't remove their blindness with their coming to Christ Jesus.

Saul (Paul) was converted by Christ DIRECTLY. Christ had to remove his blindness first. He did not believe Jesus of Nazareth was The Christ prior to that road to Damascus event. And you yourself admit that, because you said, "...but his unbelief was cancelled out by God giving him Faith."

Why was Saul (Paul) among the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace per Rom.11:1-5, and not of the latter group of unbelieving Israel in Rom.11?

The only blindness left is that given to all men. The Jews who haven't repented are in the same boat as the rest of mankind. They had their chance when Jesus came...just like all the other Jews in the early church who did turn. God certainly didn't remove the blindness of some Jews and not others. Any blindness now is only what's common to man.

 

[veteran]

Your replies are mixed among my words, so I've done my best to separate them.

Jesus is our Sabbath rest....we enter into it when we believe on Him.

Yes, but will that Rest ever be literal with His establishing His reign over the wicked, and bringing in righteousness upon the whole... earth? Yes, and that's what His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 is about. That's what "the day of The LORD" is about. It has not yet come, for that's when all the wicked will bow the knee to Him as KING of kings, and LORD of lords. THAT, is what the "rod of iron" He and His elect rule with is for.

Ps 2:8-9
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
(KJV)

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(KJV)

We don't "see" it because the peace He left us is not as the world gives.
He rules not according to our human understanding.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Christ's future reign on earth during the "thousand years" will be a literal reign, and there will be literal righteousness on the earth in that time, so of course His peace will be the only true peace on earth, and none of that is OF this present world. This is why Peter taught this present world will be destroyed by fire, even as Paul said also (2 Pet.3; Heb.12). That time is yet to come. That's why we don't see it yet today, and not for any other reason.

[quote:2t57bx48]The Holy Spirit is reproving the world of sin, imbuing the church with the righteousness of the law, and judging hearts today. Satan was judged at the cross. We only await the day of the Lord when all His judgments and rewards are made manifest to all men. You can be sure every knee will bow on that great day. Even the world's worst sinners will be brought to their knees at the judgment seat of Christ.

In so many words, you've just agreed Christ's "thousand years" reign has not started, because His thousand years is 'the day of The Lord'. Paul called that day, "the day of Christ" in 2 Thess.2, and Paul linked the gathering of the saints to that future time. (In the Greek of Paul's "day of Christ", the word for "Christ" is actually the word for Lord.)

The first resurrection you refer to can't be when the Lord comes for His bride, because there will be some still alive that won't be resurrected but translated from life into glorified bodies.

What? There's only a one time return of our Lord Jesus written in God's Word, not two or three. The 1 Thess.4 return is the same one of 1 Cor.15, and Rev.11:15 at the sound of the trump.

To understand this, we need to look at what the second death means. Our first death is not our physical death but the spiritual death we inherited from Adam. The second death is for those who have not been written in the Lamb's book of life. When we're born again, we have been raised from death into life...that is the first resurrection.

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

[/quote:2t57bx48]

The first death is the death of our flesh. The "second death" of Rev.20 is the death of one's soul cast into the future "lake of fire" event.

What you're saying is of how Paul taught about Christ's death and Resurrection in the metaphorical sense, and applied it to all believers on Him. That's a metaphor. Now if Paul meant that metaphor literally, then no believer would have need to go through the change to put on the "spiritual body" which he also taught concerning the resurrection. We have to learn when Paul is speaking in metaphor about a literal event yet to come...

Rom 6:3-11
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:

Do you see the distinction Paul makes there? If we've been planted together IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH... what does he mean by "likeness"? That word for likeness means form, shape, similtude. Are we NOW in a resurrection body like our Lord's today? Are we manifested in the "spiritual body" today which Paul taught? NO, not yet! So Paul is giving a metaphor, but it's about a future manifestation when the sons of God shall manifest at Christ's coming, being given a resurrection body like our Lord's. That glory is yet to come today.

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

What body of sin is Paul talking about? Our flesh body, for it's flesh death he speaks of there. And as long as we have a flesh body today, we will continue to deal with sin. Our flesh is probably what causes most of our sins. That's why we need Christ's Blood shed on the cross for us, for He is the only One born in the flesh That was without sin. So do you know any Christian believer today that has completely stopped sinning? I don't. This is why we are to still repent of our sins through Christ even after we've been baptized into His death.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:

We are to reckon Christ's death and resurrection as ALREADY having effect over our spirit inside our flesh, even though we still live in the flesh and it has not yet died, or gone through the 'change' at His coming. We're not to reckon that upon our flesh bodies which are to perish and go back to the dust of the earth at flesh death (the first death - Eccl.12:5-7).

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)

All Apostle Paul is saying, is for those in Christ to RECKON our flesh as already dead with Christ's death while we are still in the flesh body. He didn't call that reckoning the "first death". The first death is still... the actual death of our flesh bodies. The "reckon" word means 'to suppose'.

This would be a good place to cover what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection, and how it links to Christ's coming, His thousand years reign, and then the "second death" idea in Rev.20.

 

[veteran]

The only blindness left is that given to all men. The Jews who haven't repented are in the same boat as the rest of mankind. They had their chance when Jesus came...just like all the other Jews in the early church who did turn. God certainly didn't remove the blindness of some Jews and not others. Any blindness now is only what's common to man.

But there again, that is judging man before the time. We cannot do that and remain in Christ Jesus, for we still don't know if God will remove the blindness of all unbelieving Israel yet, for Paul showed that blindness is to continue until when? When we think it should end? No. It's to continue until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (Rom.11:25-26). There are MANY Gentiles today in foreign nations that are hearing The Gospel for the first time. There's a great exodus of Gentiles coming to Christ Jesus overseas today. And there's no reason to think it won't continue all the way through the coming great tribulation.

 

[glorydaz]

The only blindness left is that given to all men. The Jews who haven't repented are in the same boat as the rest of mankind. They had their chance when Jesus came...just like all the other Jews in the early church who did turn. God certainly didn't remove the blindness of some Jews and not others. Any blindness now is only what's common to man.

But there again, that is judging man before the time. We cannot do that and remain in Christ Jesus, for we still don't know if God will remove the blindness of all unbelieving Israel yet, for Paul showed that blindness is to continue until when? When we think it should end? No. It's to continue until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (Rom.11:25-26). There are MANY Gentiles today in foreign nations that are hearing The Gospel for the first time. There's a great exodus of Gentiles coming to Christ Jesus overseas today. And there's no reason to think it won't continue all the way through the coming great tribulation.

The light of the Gospel gives no one an excuse for blindness. Only the hardness of man's heart is keeping him from the truth...whether he be Jew or Gentile. The vail has been taken away in Christ.
The fulness of the gentiles (nations) speaks merely of the ripeness of the harvest. I see no special dispensation for the nation of Israel. All unbelievers are in the same boat.

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[veteran]

The only blindness left is that given to all men. The Jews who haven't repented are in the same boat as the rest of mankind. They had their chance when Jesus came...just like all the other Jews in the early church who did turn. God certainly didn't remove the blindness of some Jews and not others. Any blindness now is only what's common to man.

Think about that again, for Christ Divinely intervened with Saul (Paul) converting him in Person, removing the blindness of the "spirit of slumber" upon him. Paul was even busy hunting down Christians when it happened. Our Lord Jesus did that because He said Paul was His "chosen vessel" (Acts 9). Our Lord Jesus did not do that for the rest of Israel. So The Lord did indeed remove His blindess from some while not with others of Israel.

The light of the Gospel gives no one an excuse for blindness. Only the hardness of man's heart is keeping him from the truth...whether he be Jew or Gentile. The vail has been taken away in Christ.
The fulness of the gentiles (nations) speaks merely of the ripeness of the harvest. I see no special dispensation for the nation of Israel. All unbelievers are in the same boat.

The vail is ONLY removed when someone comes to Christ and believes. That's what Paul said. But that "spirit of slumber" Paul said is upon them is what's preventing belief, and Paul said there's a condition for when that blindness is to be removed, when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Something you might want to consider in your deeper Bible study too. That "spirit of slumber" is not only upon unbelieving Jews, for it involves the condition of having 'eyes to see, and ears to hear', a metaphor God's Word used about being given understanding in His Word. So there's more involved than just unbelieving Jews today. It also involves the great apostasy of 2 Thess.2, including many believers in the future when the final antichrist comes for the great tribulation to play God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet says:

Of course unbelief will hinder one's Salvation through Christ.

You contradict paul 2 tim 2:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Jesus christ simply gave him faith to replace his unbelief..so this proves you dont have any ideal of what you are talking about..

 

[savedbygrace57]

rom 11:29

rom 11:

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

For the gifts and callings of God are without repentance; and thats why for the Fathers sake there is a remnant [ Israel of God] in Israel [ National Israel], again thats why Paul, a benjamite, a hebrew of hebrews , was made to see[converted], and thats why he had a good hope that many more of his jewish brethren would be turned to the Lord, they too being of the foreknown of God and the election of grace, of which the rest were broken off in their unbelief.

Note: When God set aside the National Covenant with Israel as a Nation being the representation of the Kingdom of God on earth as His People, that did not mean He would not still save ethnic Jews by grace..

You see those that were blinded [ jn 9:39] were made enemies for the gentiles sake, that the elect remnant of them [ see acts 15:14-16] may be grafted into the Olive Tree, but in regards to the remnant according to the election of grace [in national Israel], they are beloved for the Fathers sake, because the gifts and the callings of God's own eternal purpose of grace [ 2 tim 1:9] and not race.

For God did not repent of His purpose of Judicial blindness unto the nation of Israel [ jn 9:39] nor of His purpose and calling of the election of grace of the gentiles for james says:

acts 15:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This blinding of national Israel and introducing of the gentiles into covenant relationship with the elect remnant of the jews, was all of Gods doing .. Matt 21:42

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

 

[glorydaz]

The only blindness left is that given to all men. The Jews who haven't repented are in the same boat as the rest of mankind. They had their chance when Jesus came...just like all the other Jews in the early church who did turn. God certainly didn't remove the blindness of some Jews and not others. Any blindness now is only what's common to man.

Think about that again, for Christ Divinely intervened with Saul (Paul) converting him in Person, removing the blindness of the "spirit of slumber" upon him. Paul was even busy hunting down Christians when it happened. Our Lord Jesus did that because He said Paul was His "chosen vessel" (Acts 9). Our Lord Jesus did not do that for the rest of Israel. So The Lord did indeed remove His blindess from some while not with others of Israel.

The light of the Gospel gives no one an excuse for blindness. Only the hardness of man's heart is keeping him from the truth...whether he be Jew or Gentile. The vail has been taken away in Christ.
The fulness of the gentiles (nations) speaks merely of the ripeness of the harvest. I see no special dispensation for the nation of Israel. All unbelievers are in the same boat.

The vail is ONLY removed when someone comes to Christ and believes. That's what Paul said. But that "spirit of slumber" Paul said is upon them is what's preventing belief, and Paul said there's a condition for when that blindness is to be removed, when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Something you might want to consider in your deeper Bible study too. That "spirit of slumber" is not only upon unbelieving Jews, for it involves the condition of having 'eyes to see, and ears to hear', a metaphor God's Word used about being given understanding in His Word. So there's more involved than just unbelieving Jews today. It also involves the great apostasy of 2 Thess.2, including many believers in the future when the final antichrist comes for the great tribulation to play God.

That's exactly what I've been saying, Veteran. It isn't just the Jews.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God has not changed towards Israel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For God has not changed His purpose of Grace towards Israel, for He keeps His covenant faithfulness [ in spite of the rejection of Him by the jews of national Israel] He keeps His promise by converting the remnant according to the election of grace..That is Paul's point in rom 11:2

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. That means there were Jews in Israel He foreknew in their being chosen in Christ and predestinated to the Image of His Son per rom 8:


28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So God is Faithful in converting the Jews of the nation who are of the election, and He is Faithful in converting the gentiles of the nations who are of the election..and Gods plan entailed breaking off national Israel for the grafting in of the gentiles..

So in reality, it is those who believe in some kinda postponement theory [ jewish fable] that have no understanding of Gods immutability, for they fail to see Gods purpose in national Israel fall [ matt 21:42-43 ] and the grafting in of the gentiles per acts 15:


17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world

Notice how this calling of the gentiles is associated with the building up of the tabernacle of David vs

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

This building again was in a spiritual way..notice how the terminology of building is used by Paul with the adding of the gentiles to build the temple of God eph 2:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit

We should all know that the temple was built after the pattern of the tabernacle..

So vs 29 of romans 11 is emphatically stating that the gifts and callings to the remnant Jews, and the remnant gentiles are without repentance by God; for this is evidenced by the everlasting covenant to Israel has not been annulled by the reject and blindness of National Israel in part, because the election [ within the nation] hath obtained the promises of the everlasting covenant along with the elect gentiles in the world, and this was the Mystery, but now being revealed by the Gospel..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Romans 11 :32

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rom 11:32

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all

This is one of the most misunderstood verses in romans, and the false teachers and followers of antichrist have a field day with it wresting it out of context. This verse is in the context of Paul's exposition of the mystery !

rom 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

rom 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

eph 3:3

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

And how the unbelief of national Israel [ the partial blindness] was ordered by God for the inclusion or grafting in of the gentiles into Covenant Israel.

Now by God doing this, the gentiles [ the church] would now be instrumental of God, to call by the preaching of the gospel, the elect Jews of the nation into fellowship with Jesus Christ, as well as the elect gentiles too..In other words, now that national Israel is cut off, the elect Jews in that nation will come to faith in Christ through the preaching of the church, which would now be mainly gentiles. So God has by succession plans concluded both Jew and gentiles under unbelief, in order to Have mercy upon all, all people groups..

For at first the gentiles for the most part were in unbelief and ignorant to God and the true way of salvation during the OT era..but now under the new covenant era the tide has changed, and now the Jews for the most part are under unbelief, and now God has mercy on the remnant Jews through the ministry of the gentiles or church..

This was intimated long ago in this prophecy isa 61:6

But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

remember back earlier in rom 11 this statement ? rom 11:12

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The enriching of the gentiles, will fall to the enriching of the elect remnant in national Israel, even though for the most part the many Jews of that nation were blinded..

But the gentile church, would be used of God up until the end, to call out of national Israel a people for His name sake, as He called out of the gentiles a people for his name sake see acts 15:14..

So thats what Paul means in this verse, in having mercy on all.. He shut down earlier the gentiles in unbelief [ OT ] and under the NT He shut down the Jews in unbelief..and He will have mercy upon each people group, for both groups of people contain a remnant according to the election of grace, which are the vessels of mercy, not of the Jews only but also of the gentiles rom 9:


23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[veteran]

vet says:

Of course unbelief will hinder one's Salvation through Christ.

You contradict paul 2 tim 2:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Jesus christ simply gave him faith to replace his unbelief..so this proves you dont have any ideal of what you are talking about..

I think someone deleted my post in answer to that. Your accusation is unwarrented.

2 Tim 2:12-13
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself.
(KJV)

The 2 Tim.2:13 verse is about the unbelief of some not making Christ's Salvation of none effect.


1 Tim 1:11-16
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, Who hath enabled me, for that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul obtained MERCY from our Lord Jesus from the sin of his persecution of The Church, because as written, Saul (Paul) did it "ignorantly in unbelief." Not only did Saul (Paul) not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was The Christ, he even sought to persecute anyone of that time that did believe Jesus was The Christ. Our Lord counted him as being faithful after... He converted him.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting.
(KJV)

Christ's conversion of Paul was to show His Mercy, and to make Paul an apostle of The Gospel. The word 'apostle' means one that is 'sent', a called chosen one. The Message is, that someone can be deceived and work against Christ in unbelief, and ignorance, and then through God's mercy be brought into His fold.

Now if The LORD did that with Saul (Paul), then who can say He won't also remove the unbelief of the rest of Israel when the fulness of the Gentiles is come in? This is not my idea, this is what Paul is saying at the end of Romans 11 about unbelieving Israel...

Rom 11:25-34
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The "blindness in part" is about the difference between the remnant of Israel which God preserved and called, vs. those of unbelieving Israel which were placed in blindess. It's that "blindness in part" that is to one day be removed from unbelieving Israel.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?(KJV)

So those who think God is already done with unbelieving of Israel need to take re-account of their own personal assumptions, and not assign it to the Will of God.