Bible Study A study on the Sabbath

[cyberjosh]

I am in no way wanting to speak for Elijah, but I would like to make a comment in general about this if I may.

I would not say we are "obligated" but rather able to do so in purity of faith. It would almost be like asking the question, "Are we obligated to have no other gods but The Lord?". I think it goes without saying it would be a ridiculous statement to say that having other gods is alright. Its a given. What's crazy is that there are indeed some now in the train of thought that it's ok to have "other" gods, name them what you like, as long as we agree that there is "A" God.

Whether we like it or not the Sabbath is a part of the law of God. But the question that would be best asked is how should we observe the Sabbath. I guess the question could still be asked, do we just disregard the 4th as a whole, but how can we do that?

"18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Heaven and earth has not yet passed away. And we know that not yet have all things been accomplished. Our Lord made this statement before going into a discourse about the law and His magnification of it. We are not obligated, but shouldn't we do so from a desire to love Him and all that He has created?

Well let me put it this way, my Dad raised me (and has done so for my brother and sister as well) teaching me Bible verses using a pictoral flash-card method (with a picture of a scene or action in a verse on one side with the words on the other) adopted by a Christian homeschooling group many years ago (which is very effective, by the time I was 10 I memorized over 200 verses that way) and my Dad has used the flash cards ever since to teach verses even at his church to children in Sunday school as young as 4 & 5 years old well until they are 11-12 years old. It is a very effective memory tool. How that ties into this is that in order to aid a young child's understanding of some of the verses small alterations like removing "thees" and "thous" are done, but also notably the 4th commandment is memorized as "Remember the Church day to keep it holy", teaching young kids to want to go to Church and regarding it as holy and the Lord's day, in a way they can understand.

A legalist would say that the Christian "Church day", Sunday - the day of Jesus' resurrection, is not the Sabbath (Saturday) and therefore any Christian who observes any semblance of the Sabbath on any day other than Saturday is breaking God's law under the new covenant in Jesus' blood. So the question of whether we must observe the Sabbath is a way of determining if one is following the Old Covenant law or if they acknowledge the freedom in Christ to observe a day unto God when they see fit (and by Christian tradition that day has been on the Lord's Day - Sunday). I do not see a large problem, speaking in principles, of introducing the idea of the 4th commandment to young Children as "remember the Church day to keep it holy" until they are old enough to understand a little more about what the Hebrew Sabbath is. But really how much of the Sabbath commandment are we to actually observe under the new covenant? Is it more letter or spirit that is important? That is what I am asking.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Also, before you ask, I dutifully observe a day of rest on Sunday by taking long Sunday afternoon naps. :D ;) A passion I inherited from my father. Even my cat joins in on the observance.

 

[Elijah674]

Thank you for the response, but are you implying that we as Christians are obligated to observe the sabbath still? I don't always understand your posts as well as I would like.

God Bless,

~Josh

??? Are you asking me what I am implying? Josh, the question needs to be answered DIRECT from the Word of God. What do They Teach? If you can find for me any place that They teach otherwise of what They COMMANDED, (Isa. 8:20) post it up for me. + a reversal of Heb. 8:8-9???

'Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and [FOREVER]. Be [NOT CARRIED ABOUT WITH DIVERS AND STRANGE DOCTRINES].'

OK: My personal answer for myself as 'i' think that you meant & as 'i' see it?

I Love My Lord, and if that is True on my part, (no Rev. 3:16 Lukewarm Love either)
why would 'i' not OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS???????? Christ even tel's us that they are His Fathers Commands! Rev. 12:17 In bottom/line, that is what the Eternal Gospel Rev. 14:6 is ALL ABOUT! DO WE LOVE CHRIST?????

So NO, a Gen. 4:7 'fruite offering' for the Lord's 7th Day Required Sabbath Day of Worship will not find 'me' saved in the END TIMES TESTING.(666)

And as in John 10:16, there are many who are sincerely Christ's other sheep
who had even died thinking that they too were Obeying their Masters will, who will be saved! Eccl. 12:13-14
But with that being so, that does not apply to us who are living in the Last day's of Dan. 12:4 & Hosea 4:6 or these of Rev. 3:16 ones even.

 

[Nathan]

Also, before you ask, I dutifully observe a day of rest on Sunday by taking long Sunday afternoon naps. :D ;) A passion I inherited from my father. Even my cat joins in on the observance.

You and me both brother. Of course.....there are other times when get the urge to take a day of rest also....just saying. lol

Man, that is a great idea!!! I love the idea of the flash cards. I came across, and studied it to an extent, teaching by orality. That would fit wonderfully into that concept. I am not as much of a stickler on what translation or even what little words may be left out when memorizing a verse. It is always the context and if the child is able to grasp the meaning behind the passage. Verses were mans 'addition' to the Holy Writings and only serve for good reference points. All to often, in our tradition, they have been made to be individual break points of thought.

So if I am teaching a child Scripture, then if they can paraphrase it I am good with it. That tells me they grasp what the intention is and not just memorizing the order of specific words. When they get older they can then have the foundation to go back on and build. I too was taught the Bible through pictures and such by my mother. What a wonderful blessing it has been through the years.

I believe in alterations, that is what translations do in the first place, but I cannot say I would ever change Sabbath to Church. You probably know me well enough by now that I am big on word usage. And I do falter quite a bit myself when it comes to using correct words. But that does not mean I should dismiss it when others do. I am not being judgmental at all, but simply trying to share the facts.

The Sabbath was the seventh day of creation. The Church is the "called out ones". The Sabbath was God's day of rest. The Church is the body of Christ. I could go on and on, but there is no need for it. These two are completely separate and distinct. It is not like replacing a thou with a you. I am not going to tell you what you can do or not do, and I do understand what you are trying to do by giving them a foot hold into understanding Scripture, but is changing the commandment, verse, passage, really the way to help them out? Do you think that they might have a harder time understanding the full grasp of the meaning later on in life? Just curious.

Indeed, what does the Sabbath mean to us who are in Christ? Are the letter and spirit able to be completely separated? Is the flesh compatible with the spirit? There are a myriad of questions that should be asked before one could ever understand the depth of the Sabbath and the 'keeping' of it. Think about it, until Jesus came (so for thousands of years) they thought that murder was a physical act of destroying a persons life. Jesus comes and tells them; "look fellows, if you are angry with someone then your liable to judgement, murder is not just a physical act." Of course, then we have some manuscripts that insert, "without cause". I have not studied that in its depth, but it sounds like a 'loop hole' to me and I have no need for it.

Have I ever been angry with someone? Oh you bet I have. I wonder just how many people I have murdered in my lifetime. But lets move on to the Sabbath. Jesus magnified some of the others in plain text, does that men that He did not magnify this one for us? I think He did. I think that He gave the true intention of it in more ways than one. And in fact, I think that ever since the meaning behind the Sabbath was opened more and more as His Disciples and Apostles understood more and more through the Spirit. I think that it culminates in Hebrews.

I do not think its a matter of what we can and cannot do on any given day. Which is given credit by Paul's statement in Romans 14. Its the intent of the heart. There is some deep, deep spiritual truth behind the Sabbath. It is the very first commandment that we 'understand' when reading the Bible chronologically. It was first introduced in Genesis 2. God blessed it and made it Holy. There are so many things that are specific to the Sabbath. So many things that surround it. For example, God's using of it as a sign. Why would He pick that and not idolatry? Wouldn't it make sense that a sign of worshiping the one true and living God would be that we did not have any other idols that are man made?

I believe in the Sabbath, I believe in the magnification of it. I would like to dive deeper into the magnification of it and leave the man imposed rules and regulations out of it.

 

[Theofilus]

Well let me put it this way, my Dad raised me (and has done so for my brother and sister as well) teaching me Bible verses using a pictoral flash-card method (with a picture of a scene or action in a verse on one side with the words on the other) adopted by a Christian homeschooling group many years ago (which is very effective, by the time I was 10 I memorized over 200 verses that way) and my Dad has used the flash cards ever since to teach verses even at his church to children in Sunday school as young as 4 & 5 years old well until they are 11-12 years old. It is a very effective memory tool. How that ties into this is that in order to aid a young child's understanding of some of the verses small alterations like removing "thees" and "thous" are done, but also notably the 4th commandment is memorized as "Remember the Church day to keep it holy", teaching young kids to want to go to Church and regarding it as holy and the Lord's day, in a way they can understand.

A legalist would say that the Christian "Church day", Sunday - the day of Jesus' resurrection, is not the Sabbath (Saturday) and therefore any Christian who observes any semblance of the Sabbath on any day other than Saturday is breaking God's law under the new covenant in Jesus' blood. So the question of whether we must observe the Sabbath is a way of determining if one is following the Old Covenant law or if they acknowledge the freedom in Christ to observe a day unto God when they see fit (and by Christian tradition that day has been on the Lord's Day - Sunday). I do not see a large problem, speaking in principles, of introducing the idea of the 4th commandment to young Children as "remember the Church day to keep it holy" until they are old enough to understand a little more about what the Hebrew Sabbath is. But really how much of the Sabbath commandment are we to actually observe under the new covenant? Is it more letter or spirit that is important? That is what I am asking.

God Bless,

~Josh

Paraphrasing Bible verses to help children understand them is good, as long as you are carfull of two things.

• At some point, they have to learn the "real" version of what happened. Too often, people still believe the Sunday school version of things, even after they have been Christians for decades.
• Don't change the meaning of Scripture. Simplifying is one thing, but changing the meaning is quite another.

The word "Sabbath" doesn't mean "every seventh day". It's the name of one particular day of the week. We have names for all the days of the week, but Hebrew simply numbers them, with one exception - Sabbath. If the commandment was "Remember Saturday to keep it holy... Six days shall you labor, but Saturday is a day of rest" would you find it acceptable to change that to "church day"? Well, that's actually what it says. Sabbath is the name of the day that coresponds to our Saturday (strictly speaking, from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday).

I expect you will call me a legalist, but this has nothing to do with legalism. It's what the Word says.

 

[cyberjosh]

Hello all,

First of all so as to not beat around the bush, or leave anything ambiguous I will try to clear the following up:

Do I believe that the 4th commandment as given in Exodus 20 by God on Mt. Sinai was intended for a literal Saturday observance by the Israelites bound under covenant with God? Of course.

Do I believe that Christians, believers in Jesus Christ, who are under the new covenant are commanded or expected to observe the Saturday Sabbath? No.

That, BTW, is one reason I am not a 7th day Adventist.

May Christians observe it if they choose? Yes (see Acts 15 - was not a requirement but is permissible).

Now to address other things.

The Sabbath was the seventh day of creation. The Church is the "called out ones". The Sabbath was God's day of rest. The Church is the body of Christ. I could go on and on, but there is no need for it. These two are completely separate and distinct. It is not like replacing a thou with a you. I am not going to tell you what you can do or not do, and I do understand what you are trying to do by giving them a foot hold into understanding Scripture, but is changing the commandment, verse, passage, really the way to help them out? Do you think that they might have a harder time understanding the full grasp of the meaning later on in life? Just curious.

No I do not think it inhibits understanding as long as it is taught correctly. I was taught that way and I am very aware of what the Sabbath is today. The verse was taught in the manner that it was in order to relay a principle that is applicable to new covenant Christians (though Sunday is by no means required anymore than Saturday for Christians - as I said it just was traditionally decided that the Lord's day - Sunday - when Jesus rose would be a day of gathering & a day of rest). In all things observe them as unto the Lord.

Paraphrasing Bible verses to help children understand them is good, as long as you are carfull of two things.

•At some point, they have to learn the "real" version of what happened. Too often, people still believe the Sunday school version of things, even after they have been Christians for decades.
•Don't change the meaning of Scripture. Simplifying is one thing, but changing the meaning is quite another.

The word "Sabbath" doesn't mean "every seventh day". It's the name of one particular day of the week. We have names for all the days of the week, but Hebrew simply numbers them, with one exception - Sabbath. If the commandment was "Remember Saturday to keep it holy... Six days shall you labor, but Saturday is a day of rest" would you find it acceptable to change that to "church day"? Well, that's actually what it says. Sabbath is the name of the day that coresponds to our Saturday (strictly speaking, from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday).

I expect you will call me a legalist, but this has nothing to do with legalism. It's what the Word says.

I agree with your assessment of what must be done when paraphrasing, and such memorizations are not done without instruction (telling how & when God gave these commandments and what they entailed, etc.) As I said, I went through that teaching process and I have a good understanding of it today. Also, as I stated at the beginning of this post I certainly do understand that the Sabbath itself is on Saturday. However I do not believe that Sabbath observance is binding on NT believers, because it is an old covenant ordinance and it was not reiterated under the new covenant. However principles from OT ordinances are always applicable to new covenant believers, even sacrificial ordinances, as they can be applied as examples of to how we should approach God offer ourselves a living sacrifice to Him. One however has the feedom to observe a day unto the Lord like the Sabbath any day or even every day, as long as it is done as unto the Lord. Paul clearly itterates these freedoms in Christ under the new covenant.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah here:
Josh, you say.. (among other things.. 'about I have a good understanding..' and.. 'beating around the bush.' means what??)

and you say:'However I do not believe that Sabbath observance is binding on NT believers, because it is an old covenant ordinance and it was not reiterated under the new covenant.'

OK: my highlights. But give the Inspiration of the Sabbath of the forth Commandment [ever even being hinted at as an 'ordinance'] & with your good understanding sounds 'stuffy' to me at least?? And what do you do with the Rev. 14:6 N.T. (Covenant) Truth of the Eternal Gospel when you say that it is not Everlasting???

You divide up where there NOW, IS NO DIVISION! Christ is IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE where there is the Heavenly Ark still having the MERCY SEAT over the Ark, (Rev. 11:18-19 even finds the time of Judgement!) that has the Eternal Covenant INSIDE. (7th Day Sabbath Commandment & ALL!) And we are told that that is the TESTAMENT. And you say that their forth command of the TESTAMENT is what, abolished?

Ex. 25
[16] And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
[17] And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. (but the Mercy of Christ death is not for one to live in open sin! James 2:10-12 )
[18] And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
[19] And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
[20] And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
[21] And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and [in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.]

(And again, if one can find even a hint that Moses laws were either written by God or were of these Eternal ten inside the Ark of God, we need that documentation! Yet, lets see how long the Sabbath was around & how long it was REQUIRED to be by the Godhead. Creation week is the start for mankind. Abe will be be seen as documentation, if one believes the Godhead. And you can read Isa. 66:22-23 for well, well, past what 'some' falsely 'teach' ..that the New Covenant obliterates the 7th Day Sabbath And This is IN THE NEW EARTH! )

Isa. 66
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(Also see Rev.'s last couple verses of ones Warning!)

And Abe: Gen.12
[1] Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[2] And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
....
[5] And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the (as Abe was a Gentile, so was these converts!) souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

(And it takes time for the Holy Spirit to win over converts, huh Josh? But what Eternal Gospel was Abe 'teaching'?)

Interesting, and the Lord [said]! God spoke directly to His own before He was asked not to. But do not miss the point, what was it that Abe was teaching that had 'GENTILE SOUL'S WON TO CHRIST'? (No law? NO CONDITIONS??) Hardly! And some again, falsely say, the Eternal Law of God started with the Jew on Mount Sinnai. Then..., even explain then what Law Noah preached for 120 years with the same Holy Spirit's STRIVING & with the same results as todays Rev. 17:1-5 ones, to NO EFFECT!?

But years later after Abe's calling, God appeared to Isaac & in verse 5 and [Documented] why He called Abe in the first place! It was because he was OBEDIENT! And notice what laws are listed.

Gen.26

[1] And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
[2] And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
[3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
[4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And then one reads this posting in part below, which tells us of the poster's thoughts, but not what God HAS COMMANDED. (and I highlighted the word of ordinance) Again, 'i' ask for documentation for where the Godhead ever even 'hinted' that the 7th Day Sabbath of Theirs that They Blessed & that They Sanctified & wrote Theirself IN TABLES OF STONE & THEN RECREATED IN THE BORN AGAIN HEART & set aside for Holy use was ever called an ordinance? Whatever?? --Elijah

And you say:
'I agree with your assessment of what must be done when paraphrasing, and such memorizations are not done without instruction (telling how & when God gave these commandments and what they entailed, etc.) As I said, I went through that teaching process and I have a good understanding of it today. Also, as I stated at the beginning of this post I certainly do understand that the Sabbath itself is on Saturday. However I do not believe that Sabbath observance is binding on NT believers, because it is an old covenant ordinance and it was not reiterated under the new covenant. However principles from OT ordinances are always applicable to new covenant believers, even sacrificial ordinances, as they can be applied as examples of to how we should approach God offer ourselves a living sacrifice to Him. One however has the feedom to observe a day unto the Lord like the Sabbath any day or even every day, as long as it is done as unto the Lord. Paul clearly itterates these freedoms in Christ under the new covenant.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

I understand what you are saying Josh. I do. I was brought up probably a lot like you were. However, the main reason behind this topic was to dig deeper into the meaning of the Sabbath. And when I mean "deeper", I mean beyond what we have been taught through tradition. Down to the roots of what it is.

I also have found it very, very interesting that we hold no qualms about the other 9 listed. We will not for a moment say that they are not binding on us. Paul specifically states that murderers and thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God, nor those who practice such things. We also know about idolatry, adultery, lying, or greedy people. Theses all can be found within the ten commandments. The Law.

So what about the Sabbath? Why do we not find Paul addressing it directly like he does the rest? Why did God rest after creating everything? There is so much that surrounds it besides the 7th day, besides "not doing anything" on the day. Those are all fleshly things that surround the Sabbath. I want to look at the magnification of it. There is no way that it is not in effect for the children of God, of which we are.

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How does modern Christianity get around this? I am just wanting to dig deep. Not make it complicated, and not blow it off as nothing. There is a reason why God "rested" after creating everything. There is a reason why He blessed it, and there is a reason why He made it Holy. Yet all I am finding from most is that people either want to say;

"It is what it is. Has not changed. Its from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. It should be observed as such."

or

"It was for old Israel. It is no longer binding on "Christians" today. It is now something we do on Sundays."

or

"It does not matter. Do what you want. It will all come out in the wash."


Its frustrating. It never fails that this is where it ends up. One side against another on the specific day of the week without going any deeper into the meaning behind it. Or maybe I should not be surprised. It is the same thing that Jesus dealt with so long ago. Its all about rules and regulations for everyone. But I guess that is how we are wired? We need to 'know' what is ok and what is not. We have a tendency to either say, "it is not ok to do this" or we will say, "it is now ok to do that". All this does is point to our own self centered.

Ok. So I go to a "church" on Sundays. Do I feel like I am observing the Sabbath on that day? No. Do I think it has been abolished? Absolutely not. How do I relate the two? Do I not care about it? No, I care deeply about it. Do I think it was for a specific group of people? No, God specifically said that those who were foreigners inside the gates of the Israelites were to observe the Sabbath the same as Israel. If it was only applicable to a specific group then why were the foreigners held liable to "obey" something they were never given?

Here is the one thing that I get 'hung' up on, if you can call it that. The one time Jesus references the Sabbath, and does any sort of magnification of it, is when He states that it was made for man. Why? What does that mean really? How does it apply to "keeping" it? Can we all move on from the day of the week? Or.....or.....does it all fit into place when we get past our fleshly understanding of things and look at the spiritual side of them? Does the "work" not being done and the "day" of the week come into play in a spiritual sense?

Come on guys. Lets dig deep. Will God withhold wisdom to those who seek her in spirit and truth?

 

[cyberjosh]

Perhaps my choice of 'ordinance' as the word was not technically correct, but I regarded it in the sense that all of God's commands are 'ordained' (hence ordinance), decreed, set, etc. Yes it was a commandment, or 'word' (davar - a spoken word or decree; 10 commandments = 10 words). This does not change the fact that the observance of the Sabbath was covenental. When Did God ever require the Gentiles to observe the Sabbath? God did not command Abraham to observe the Sabbath. This is different from acknowleding the fact that on the 7th day God indeed rested from all his works. The issue is whether we are expected by God to rest/abstain from work also on every Saturday and withhold from doing certain things in order to keep His covenant with the Israelites. Also whether God will reinstate the Sabbath observance in the New Earth or not is up to God. That does not prove that is is binding on the Church now.

You tell me something please. How do you in particular obey God's commandment to observe the Sabbath? Do you go "out of your place" or travel any significant distance on Saturdays (Exodus 16:29)? Do you observe all the other Sabbath laws of the OT? Do you gather food or go grocery shopping on that day? Tell me, what is your way of ensuring you do not break the Sabbath? And where did Jesus teach Sabbath observance as a command to his followers? Where did Paul, or Peter, or John, or James? I think it is rather you who are offering your own interpretaion. I'm just saying. Please show me otherwise if this is not so.

Also, to get to the heart of it all, how would breaking this command affect a Christian's walk with God in your mind? I did not see a condition on His communion with us or on the reality of the indwelling of His Spirit in us, apart from breaking the relationship ourselves by seperation/apostasy caused by blapheming the Holy Spirit and trampling on Jesus' sacrifice. Please explain how this is crucial to to our adequacy to be "ministers of a new covenant" (2 Corinthians 3:6)?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

So what about the Sabbath? Why do we not find Paul addressing it directly like he does the rest? Why did God rest after creating everything? There is so much that surrounds it besides the 7th day, besides "not doing anything" on the day. Those are all fleshly things that surround the Sabbath. I want to look at the magnification of it. There is no way that it is not in effect for the children of God, of which we are.

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How does modern Christianity get around this? I am just wanting to dig deep. Not make it complicated, and not blow it off as nothing. There is a reason why God "rested" after creating everything. There is a reason why He blessed it, and there is a reason why He made it Holy. Yet all I am finding from most is that people either want to say;

I certainly believe there is a reason for the Sabbath, and not that it was "for nothing". Hebrews greatly extends the principle of the "Sabbath rest" by saying that there remains a rest that we must enter into. You can keep all your Saturdays/Sabbaths, prophesy in Jesus' name, and cast out demons and still not enter into God's rest or God's kingdom. That is what I am saying here. How can we say that every Christian that does not observe the Sabbath on Saturdays will not be allowed into God's Kingdom (what Elijah seems to be saying - correct me if I am wrong)? Do not impose upon Christians a yoke that is not Christ's when we were given liberty in Christ. Oh, but is obeying God "a yoke" most retort? Of course not, but it is not by works we obtain salvation it is because we are saved that we exhibit good fruit unto God.

It's not so much that we are picking which of God's old covenant commandments to observe, Jesus made it very clear that loving God and one's neighbor are the cheif of the commandments and exposed the laws implications in the sermon on the mount, and thereby demonstrated them always to have been in God's moral law. The Sabbath had to do with our relationship with God not fellow man, and now Christ lives in us - his Temple - and we have communion with him in our inner man. How can observing or not observing an external practice of resting on Saturdays help or hurt that communion? And, yes there were more commands than resting on the Sabbath also, which would take another study of its own to go into all the commands, but all those commands were to foreshadow the realities in Christ. External observance does not bring us closer to God but rather the observance of the heart.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

I really think TRUTH over TRADITION said it best, better than I have come across here:

It is funny how most believe we are to keep the 10 commandments but only pay attention to 9 leaving out that pesky 4th commandment. It's clear that the Sabbath carried a great deal of importance, but does that mean anything for Christians? The 10 commandments should be more accurately called the 10 words of the covenant, and ALL of them represented an agreement national Israel made with God starting at Sinai which set them apart from the nations. Signs of this covenant included Sabbaths, circumcision, as well as other specified ordinances applicable only to those party to the covenant.

Here's what we should be asking. Why was it a sin for those of Israel to work on the Sabbath? The answer is because THEY were in a covenant relationship with GOD which commanded them to honor the 7th day. Before the covenant working on the Sabbath was not an issue, it only became an issue because God placed it as a term of the covenant He had with Israel.

As we look to Jesus kingdom, we are told that the Old Covenant has been fulfilled and thus finished and that a new covenant has been established. The new covenant has no Sabbath ordinance, therefore Sabbath keeping has no relevance for those party to the new covenant. Does that mean that the 7th day is no longer blessed by God, NO, God blessed it in the creation week, BUT it is not a day anyone since the fulfillment of the old covenant has been commissioned to keep.

We must relaize that not only is the Sabbath irrelavant to the new covenant, but so are the other 9 words of the Sinai covenant. But someone might ask: "If that's the case, is it now okay to steal, murder, and commit adultry, etc.?" My response would be, no, and it has always been wrong to do those things even before the Sinai covenant. Remember that sin can be understood without a written law. We are intelligent beings created in the image of an almighty God who has given us a conscience that can know what is right and what is not. God's word tells us that "him who knows what is right and does it not, to him it is sin."

As he said "Before the covenant working on the Sabbath was not an issue, it only became an issue because God placed it as a term of the covenant He had with Israel". This was my point when I said God did not require Abraham to do so. I've helped my Dad many a time mow the lawn, shuck corn from the garden, and do other yard/house work on Saturdays - and all in obedience to my father and with a glad heart. I believe God honors that. It's often the best time to do it on the weekend even (for our family). Sundays are often no exception either. We need to discern the intent of the prohibition on work on the Sabbath.

"Does that mean that the 7th day is no longer blessed by God, NO, God blessed it in the creation week, BUT it is not a day anyone since the fulfillment of the old covenant has been commissioned to keep." This I also agree with. The Sabbath was indeed established at creation, it was a blessed day but not until the Sinai covenant were stipulations of observation added for the sake of God's covenant with Israel. But this does not change the fact that the Sabbath itself will always be the Sabbath.

"We must relaize that not only is the Sabbath irrelavant to the new covenant, but so are the other 9 words of the Sinai covenant." In the sense I think he means this, I agree with it. Because what we are shown in the NT is God's everlasting law, what I call a "moral law" which existed before the Sinai covenant with Israel and thus though the 10 commandments contains and expresses much of his moral law, it is not bound to the confines of these covenental commandments. The Gentiles even at the time were held by the same moral standards not to lie, kill, cheat, steal, and commit adultery.

 

[Elijah674]

Perhaps my choice of 'ordinance' as the word was not technically correct, I regarded it in the sense that all of God's commands are 'ordained' (hence ordinance), decreed, set, etc. Yes it was a commandment, or 'word' (davar - a spoken word or decree; 10 commandments = 10 words). This does not change the fact that the observance of the Sabbath was covenental. When Did God ever require the Gentiles to observe the Sabbath? God did not command Abraham to observe the Sabbath. This is different from acknowleding the fact that on the 7th day God rested from all his works. The issue is whether we are expected by God to rest also on every Saturday and withhold from doing certain things in order to keep His covenant with the Israelites. Also whether God will reinstate the Sabbath observance in the New Earth or not is up to God. That does not prove that is is binding on the Church now.

You tell me something please. How do you in particular obey God's commandment to observe the Sabbath? Do you go "out of your place" or travel any significant distance on Saturdays (Exodus 16:29)? Do you observe all the other Sabbath laws of the OT? Do you gather food or go grocery shopping on that day? Tell me, what is your way of ensuring you do not break the Sabbath? And where did Jesus teach Sabbath observance? Where did Paul, or Peter, or John, or James? I think it is rather you who are offering your own interpretaion. Please show me otherwise if this is not so.

Also, to get to the heart of it all, how would breaking this command affect a Christian's walk with God in your mind? I did not see a condition on His communion with us or on the reality of the indwelling of His Spirit in us, apart from breaking the relationship ourselves by seperation/apostasy caused by blapheming the Holy Spirit and trampling on Jesus' sacrifice. Please explain how this is crucial to to our adequacy to be "ministers of a new covenant" (2 Corinthians 3:6).

God Bless,

~Josh

Did you even read why God CALLED Abe in the firstbplace in His Inspired Gen. 26:5 verse??

And your question about how would the breaking of this command effect a Christians walk with God? It matters not which command is knowingly broken! (James 2:8-12 again)

See Psalms 19:13's Word of PRESUMPTION!! When the Holy Spirit 'LEADS' & mankind just will not be 'led', after a while the 'LUKEWARM' one will be harder to save that the exceedingly COLD blind one! of Rev. 3:16. And the Rev. 17:1-5 surely have passed the boundaries of Heb. 6:6 & fulfill Eze. 8:16-17 'sun worship & thumbing the nose in abomination's repeat history. (Eccl. 3:15)

Again my friend, what 'we' as individuals think or believe matters little. But for sure you can understand what John 3:3-8 [DOCUMENTS]?? One must BE BORN AGAIN IS MANTORY as the First Requirement Christ says. You surely find that to be true??

OK? So if on the N.T. (Covenant) side of the RENT VAIL & Christ as our High Priest in heaven & sending the Holy Ghost back to not speak of Himself, but UPLIFT CHRIST we now find that NO ONE HAS THE HOLY GHOST WHO DOES NOT OBEY HIM as in Acts 5:32. And again, who [INSPIRED THE WHOLE BOOK?] And you teach that THEIR SABBATH COMMAND IS ......

'I did not see a condition on His communion with us [[ or on the reality of the indwelling of His Spirit in us,]] apart from breaking the relationship ourselves by seperation/apostasy caused by blapheming the Holy Spirit and trampling on Jesus' sacrifice.' (my highlights)

Was that clear or not?? The Words are that of Inspiration, not mine. What this is saying is that to be saved in the first place, they MUST HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT! And [[REQUIRED]] number two is that the ETERNAL CONDITION from day one on to be given the Holy Ghost, is that anyone to be saved [[[MUST OBEY HIM!]]] Or they have NO RELATIONSHIP with Him.

---Elijah

 

[cyberjosh]

I'm sorry Nathan for derailing your thread. I know you want to discuss the deeper things. I just can't bring myself to acknowledge that our covenant with Christ requires keeping the Sinai law's Sabbath stipulations.

The least evidence of which is (aside from the Scriptures) that otherwise I've sinned every day of my life to this very day by not observing it to the law's specifications and yet somehow grown in my walk with God and communion with His Holy Spirit (whose very work is convicting of sin - and surely many sins have I been convicted of by the Spirit, even recently, but breaking the Sabbath has never been one of them). This would be a mystery beyond me, expecially since I see no command to keep the Mosaic Sabbath laws under the new covenant.

 

[cyberjosh]

Was that clear or not?? The Words are that of Inspiration, not mine. What this is saying is that to be saved in the first place, they MUST HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT! And [[REQUIRED]] number two is that the ETERNAL CONDITION from day one on to be given the Holy Ghost, is that anyone to be saved [[[MUST OBEY HIM!]]] Or they have NO RELATIONSHIP with Him.

Elijah please read my last post above. This is indeed the whole reason I brought up the Holy Spirit. Of course we cannot have the Spirit and actively choose to disobey God, for he will chasten us and if we ultimately reject the Holy Spirit we commit apostasy. Yet the Holy Spirit has not inspired any thing in the New Testament which states that we are to keep the old covenant law. And how can the Spirit be in a believing Christian and not convict them of it if it is a sin not to observe the Sabbath? Will you go so far as to presume to tell me I have not the Spirit in me? That I am not saved by grace in my savior Jesus?

Still also you have not said what breaking the sabbath means or does to a Christian, and why you regard it to be so important to impress upon me. You do not have to fear for my desire to obey God if that is your concern, I desire very much to and seek to obey him as best as I can by his grace. Please come into more specifics rather than these broad points you are trying to make.

 

[cyberjosh]

Elijah, may God bless you.

I see your heart for wanting to represent God's word and I take it in the spirit in which you intend it. However I have been fasting and the Spirit just impressed upon me while posting these things that I should not be arguing with another born again Christian to the point of bickering over this. It burdens my soul to think of doing so. If we must, we may have to part believing what we will on this matter, but I of course always seek to obey God's commandments - not because of legalism but out of Christ's love overflowing in me to do good works. I do not always do the good works that I should, but I trust that Christ will lead me into more perfect ways. I pray too that you will see the posts I have written in the spirit in which they were intended as well. Surely we are just looking at this from two different sides of the same realities we have in Christ. You do not have to reciprocate but I just pray you are not bitter because of any differences we may have in our understanding.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

Indeed Gentiles were commanded to 'observe' the Sabbath.

Exd 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,

Exd 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

In fact, it was the Children of God responsibility to teach this to the sojourner.

I am in no way trying to impose a guilt trip on you. I think this discussion can still bear fruit with the heat we are feeling.

I am at a loss now, however, where the "Ten Commandments" were classified as a covenant only between God and Israel. I understand that they were the ones that God entrusted with them, but not where He specifically stated they were only for them. In fact, it is a well known point that if one was to leave behind his family, country, and life and choose to follow the true and living God; then that person would have to submit to and "keep" the Law of God. A Gentile could indeed become a Jew.

Paul states it this way;

Rom 11:16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root [fn] of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

We were grafted in to them. Its not some "new" thing. Yes, there is a "new" covenant, which is better understood as a magnified way of how God deals with us now. But the root still stands as it has since the dawn of time. The Israelites were natural branches that grew from this root, and we were grafted into this root. The root did not just come about 2000 years ago.

Paul also says;

Rom 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them

Paul did not say that Christ is the end of the law for all things. Just He is the end of the law as it concerns righteousness.

Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

God entrusted Israel with these things. He has not abolished Israel, so that means that He has not abolished those things He gave them. So, therefore, it stands to reason that the Law is still in full effect. It will be till heaven and earth pass away. It will be till all things are accomplished. So what does it mean for us now? Why are we so quick to dismiss all of these things?

Paul is very pointed when he makes the remarkable statement;

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Think about it. And no I do not buy into the replacement theology. But just read it for what its worth. It specifically means that Israel is not just a physical lineage. If it were so, if it were just a physical thing, then how can some who are decedents of Israel not belong to Israel?

But we see the big picture. That Christ (the Root) is where ALL Israel comes from. They are "tame" Israel who are physical Israel because they have the Law, the worship, the glory, the adoption, and the promises. We are 'grafted' in to this "natural" Israel. So it stands to reason that whatever 'nourishment' they received from the root, we too would be receiving now.

Are you seeing the train of thought here? Christ is eternal. Out of Him came this 'chosen' people. A people who would be given all these things. They are dead things, except they receive renewal from that which supply's all life. Seeing how we are grafted into the very same root, not another plant, not a different plant, but the very same eternal root, then we receive the very same nourishment as they did. The root has not changed. And no where do we get any indication that all the branches that were given the Law and other things were the ones broken off.

In fact, the only reason why the 'natural' branches were broken off was because of unbelief. And Paul is very pointed in the fact that they would be naturally better off than us if they were to be grafted back on the root. We have no inclination to believe that they are broken off because they still hold to the law. In fact, it is professed as one of the things that makes them "natural" and the fact that we do not posses the Law as a thing that makes us "wild". They were broken off because they did not believe Jesus as the Christ. That is it.

Israel pursued the Law for the basis of righteousness. Some people say that the 'pursuance' of the law is a bad thing. Why? Paul, again, states it very clearly that the only reason why the pursuance of the law was bad is because it was not by faith. That in and of itself dictates that if they had pursued it on the basis of faith, which the patriarchs did, then they would have attained the righteousness that only comes through faith. It does not make the law null and void, it only makes the righteousness that people believed came from it null and void.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;

Rom 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Rom 9:33 as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

That Stone we all know as Christ. They did not obtain the righteousness ONLY because they did not pursue it by faith. NOT because they 'kept' the law of God. So. The question still begs to be answered. What nourishment came from the root and supplied the working of the law in the life of the natural branches? We understand that keeping the law does nothing for our righteousness, so what does it do?

Following this very interesting discourse in our utterly destitute state, and 'natural' Israel(who is classified as such because of all the things that have been given them by God), and the only reason why we were even grafted in was because of Gods mercy not because we "don't do some things"; after this Paul makes this "appeal";

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Think about it. It is us who are 'wild'. And Paul makes the statement that we should be transformed. Why do we so often consider belief in Jesus the Christ to be the end of the road? It is just the mere beginning of it. That is what 'attaches' us to the root. Then the transformation should begin to become like the 'natural' plant. And Israel, Israel from birth, will be more than capable of being grafted back in by simple belief in Jesus as the Christ.

So. What does this all have to do with the Sabbath? Much in every way! They were given this eternal law, this eternal knowledge of who God is and what He has done. Why should we not think twice about what the Sabbath is and what it is for just because we are Gentiles by nature? Are we not now apart of the same plant as Israel by nature?

 

[Nathan]

I'm sorry Nathan for derailing your thread. I know you want to discuss the deeper things. I just can't bring myself to acknowledge that our covenant with Christ requires keeping the Sinai law's Sabbath stipulations.

The least evidence of which is (aside from the Scriptures) that otherwise I've sinned every day of my life to this very day by not observing it to the law's specifications and yet somehow grown in my walk with God and communion with His Holy Spirit (whose very work is convicting of sin - and surely many sins have I been convicted of by the Spirit, even recently, but breaking the Sabbath has never been one of them). This would be a mystery beyond me, expecially since I see no command to keep the Mosaic Sabbath laws under the new covenant.

Your not in the least derailing the thread. It is good to throw all of these things out for 'inspection'. I think that as far as I am concerned it boils down to a desire to understand more about the Sabbath as a part of who God is, not as a part of what God commanded. It is a desire to know Him more. Not in an effort to 'do' things for righteousness, but to grow deeper in my faith. Faith comes through hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. There is a profound implication when you stop and consider that indeed the "Ten Commandments" are also known as the "Ten Words"

It goes deeper than 'do this' and 'don't do that' and 'do it this way'. Its not a matter of "breaking" the law, but understanding it. If a man or woman does not find any 'relevance' to the law as it applies to their walk with Christ, then they give no honor to it. It is in effect "dead to them". How can we say that about who God is? Are we so presumptuous to believe that just because He chose to give the understanding of the very nature of who He is to a specific group of people, that we cannot learn anything from it?

Its not about the rules and regulations. Its about the relationship. Think about it. You said it yourself, and it is undeniable, that the Sabbath has to do with our relationship with God. One of my udder disgusts is that we have somehow turned it into our relationship with man. It definitely does not help things that it is the only one that hangs out there almost by itself when we think of the things of God. Of the 9, it is the only one that seems to have a different aurora about it when it comes to modern day Christianity. And somewhere along the way "tradition" has replaced it with "Sunday Church Day". Why is it the only one that gets "replaced"?

 

[Sissy]

It was first introduced in Genesis 2. God blessed it and made it Holy.

What are we to "remember" about it?

Genesis 2
(1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
​

The 7th day was when God was done, finished, nothing left to be done.

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah, may God bless you.

I see your heart for wanting to represent God's word and I take it in the spirit in which you intend it. However I have been fasting and the Spirit just impressed upon me while posting these things that I should not be arguing with another born again Christian to the point of bickering over this. It burdens my soul to think of doing so. If we must, we may have to part believing what we will on this matter, but I of course always seek to obey God's commandments - not because of legalism but out of Christ's love overflowing in me to do good works. I do not always do the good works that I should, but I trust that Christ will lead me into more perfect ways. I pray too that you will see the posts I have written in the spirit in which they were intended as well. Surely we are just looking at this from two different sides of the same realities we have in Christ. You do not have to reciprocate but I just pray you are not bitter because of any differences we may have in our understanding.

God Bless,

~Josh

Hi again. Not only you as an individual which 'i' have repeatedly tried to bring across in my 'life' of service to my Master, which is.. that I do not want anyone to think that I am replying to anything other than the [posted] material.

For one to think that anyone can read another's 'motives' of their heart, is not my idea of being 'IN CHRIST'. Rom. 8:1. I have been on sites who some post under a variety of names. Who can know who they really are, or even male or female? But again, NO... NOTHING PERSONAL in my postings. For that IS GODS WORK! Rom. 8:14 He alone can read your or my heart.

And, surely we all know that God alone will be our judge & He knows ones heart.
--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

What are we to "remember" about it?

Genesis 2
(1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
​

The 7th day was when God was done, finished, nothing left to be done.

Now this is a very nice and simple approach to it. So now, why was it put as one of the ten commandments? We can "understand", in a manner of speaking, the reason for the other 9 commandments. What about the Sabbath puts it in the top tenth percentile of God's decree to a chosen, special people, called by His name and for His glory?