[_ Old Earth _] A thought on Human origins

[Barbarian]

Once you start using non-scriptural miracles to patch up holes in belief, anything goes.

 

[Knotical]

Do you know why I used the words "maybe" and "could've"? Because we simply do not know, and we can not know. The bible never was clear on the generations subject, ever. But rather than taking the bible 100% at face value, and denying scientific evidence and saying "The world is only 6000 years old because the bible says so" we should be discerning. The bible is not clear on the matter, as such we must work with the bible with the information that scientists give us.

Far too much has been proven, far too many creatures have been discovered, far too many events have transpired, and all those things COULD NOT have happened within 6000 years, as simple as that.

The only reason the bible may appear to be unclear on certain subjects is because we fail to see it, and need to ask the Holy Spirit for the ability to see what God wants us to see.

 

[Barbarian]

If this were true, every sincere Christian would agree on those things. And they manifestly do not.

 

[GodsGrace]

The only reason the bible may appear to be unclear on certain subjects is because we fail to see it, and need to ask the Holy Spirit for the ability to see what God wants us to see.

I don't know knotical.
I think the bible is unclear because of different reasons.
Maybe there would have been too much to say. John 21:25
Maybe Jesus just thought we wouldn't understand.
We have to admit that there's a disconnect between what Jesus said and what Paul said. Did you ever notice this? Jesus was actually more works oriented and legalistic than Paul was! I know Jesus came to kill the Law, but He also said that it was not abolished. Whereas for Paul, we serve God in our SPIRIT.
I often wish Jesus had been more clear on many things.
Of course, the man of His day would not have understood about evolution. Each age has its own enlightenment.
I think the bible makes VERY clear what needs to be clear.
We're sinners and we were born that way
We must recognize this
We need a savior
Jesus is that savior
We must trust Him with our very soul
He died to pay the penalty and forgive sins
And in three days He rose again

W

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Once you start using non-scriptural miracles to patch up holes in belief, anything goes.

Did God write the Ten Commandments with His finger as it states in scripture?

 

[Barbarian]

Did God write the Ten Commandments with His finger as it states in scripture?

Was that figurative as in other figurative descriptions of God? Was Jesus wrong when He described God as a spirit, claiming that a spirit has no body?

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Was that figurative as in other figurative descriptions of God? Was Jesus wrong when He described God as a spirit, claiming that a spirit has no body?

You know, you could be right. In all this bantering I lose touch with the main point of all this. The point is not to argue with a fellow Christian as to whether God has actual physical hands. The point is God formed Adam specifically, deliberately and intentionally, from the dust of the ground. Not from other creatures. Not from evolved pseudo humanoids. Not from the manipulation of some random mutant being.

God specifically made the first Human. He formed him in His own image. Unlike the other creatures which were spoke into being (again no evolving from some spectacular random spontaneous forming of some single cell "life" form morphing over millennia into the beautiful creatures of this earth). However a loving creator gave special care to personally forming this first human and breathing life into him.

To waste any more time arguing, in this dimension, about the existence of physical "hands" or no physical "hands" of our Creator, God, who exists in a totally different and infinitely more wondrous dimension, to me, is like two children arguing over which tastes better, peanut butter and jam or peanut butter and jelly, when there is a huge banquet of food prepared by a chef, in the room next to them.

So, if you will allow, I will continue to believe that the creator formed Adam, personally, not just with His voice. He then breathed the breath of life into his nostrils and gave him life. This was the first human. The first human, made in God's own image. From this first human , male, God removed a rib and made the first human woman. This is where the ancestral line begins. Not from apes or any other mythical creature.

When we get to glory, I believe the whole argument of God having or not having a physical appendage, that we have in this dimension as physical beings confined to this world, will be very embarrassing.

 

[GodsGrace]

To no one in particular...

I thought I'd feel very out of place on this thread, but actually I don't.
That's because science cannot prove or disprove God.
I don't believe He meant for science to prove His existence. God gave us science for our benefit - not to use to prove His existence.
We have children, we raise them, we feed them and clothe them and teach them to be moral and nice and smart.
Do they have to prove we're their parents once their grown? No. They just use what they were given and should be thankful for it.
I could quote Romans 1:19-20 but I'm sure everyone on this thread already knows this.

So some scientists have been telling young and impressionable children that we come from apes. Maybe this is why some started acting like them. Relativity, do what you like, have no regard for others, and all that. (actually some apes have more regard for others than some humans do).

It's my understanding that many scientists are giving up on evolution because it cannot be proven and some aspects of it should have been by now after all this scientific research. I think this is good because evolution, if it were true, would be very much in agreement with open theism: Which is: God created us, not knowing the future or what was to become of us. IOW, He created us and then left us on our own. And the bible and Jesus teach me that God is a personal God and that He cares for me and didn't walk away after creating the first man and woman. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. He said: "I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Mathew 28:20b
The most comforting words in all of scripture. (for me).

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Was that figurative as in other figurative descriptions of God? Was Jesus wrong when He described God as a spirit, claiming that a spirit has no body?

Barb,
I just thought of something.
Have you ever been to the Sistine Chapel in Rome?
You could see the finger of God there!
(Michelangelo's version).
God is spirit. But He could do whatever he wants to.
Funny. Both you and Jacks Bratt are right.
Who are we to know everything about God??
Job 38:4

Wondering

 

[Mike S]

They were the first humans to figure out how to survive and thrive in Ice Age conditions in Northern Europe. So probably pretty bright.

You mean they adapted to climate change? What a novel idea.

 

[Barbarian]

You mean they adapted to climate change?

Yep. Squatty, compact humans tend to be found in cold climates. But more than adapted, they found ways to survive in a much harsher environment. Cultural adaptations were at least as important as biological ones.

People can put up with a lot of discomfort if they have to.

 

[Barbarian]

Barb,
I just thought of something.
Have you ever been to the Sistine Chapel in Rome?
You could see the finger of God there!

A beautiful visual interpretation of a mystery.

God is spirit. But He could do whatever he wants to.

True enough. But that doesn't mean He's done everything possible for Him.

Who are we to know everything about God??
Job 38:4

True enough. Therefore, we should be extremely careful about adding new ideas to what we do know.

 

[Barbarian]

You know, you could be right. In all this bantering I lose touch with the main point of all this. The point is not to argue with a fellow Christian as to whether God has actual physical hands. The point is God formed Adam specifically, deliberately and intentionally, from the dust of the ground.

Scripture tells us that living things were brought forth from the Earth. The difference is not that we were from the Earth, but that God made us a living spirit. Man is formed in his physical self, by natural means, but our immortal soul is given directly by God.

Not from other creatures.

That is a modern revision, not found in scripture.

Unlike the other creatures which were spoke into being

The Bible says that God used nature to produce living things, being brought forth by previous created things, the earth, air, and water He had made.

(again no evolving from some spectacular random spontaneous forming of some single cell "life" form morphing over millennia into the beautiful creatures of this earth).

Darwin's great discovery was that it was not random.

However a loving creator gave special care to personally forming this first human and breathing life into him.

We are animals, formed like the others, except for that immortal soul that he gives immediately to each of us.

To waste any more time arguing, in this dimension, about the existence of physical "hands" or no physical "hands" of our Creator, God, who exists in a totally different and infinitely more wondrous dimension, to me, is like two children arguing over which tastes better, peanut butter and jam or peanut butter and jelly, when there is a huge banquet of food prepared by a chef, in the room next to them.

Of course. The precise "how" of our evolution as living things is immaterial to the "why" of His giving us an immortal soul. One was natural, like the other animals. One was an act of love done directly and personally by Him for and to each one of us.

So, if you will allow, I will continue to believe that the creator formed Adam, personally, not just with His voice. He then breathed the breath of life into his nostrils and gave him life. This was the first human. The first human, made in God's own image. From this first human , male, God removed a rib and made the first human woman.

It won't matter. He doesn't care if you accept the way He did it, or if you don't. Your salvation depends on other things. I would caution you that the doctrine of special creation has caused many people to lose their faith, when they learn that it cannot be true, and assume that it is the only acceptable belief for a Christian.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture tells us that living things were brought forth from the Earth. The difference is not that we were from the Earth, but that God made us a living spirit. Man is formed in his physical self, by natural means, but our immortal soul is given directly by God.

That is a modern revision, not found in scripture.

The Bible says that God used nature to produce living things, being brought forth by previous created things, the earth, air, and water He had made.

Darwin's great discovery was that it was not random.

We are animals, formed like the others, except for that immortal soul that he gives immediately to each of us.

Of course. The precise "how" of our evolution as living things is immaterial to the "why" of His giving us an immortal soul. One was natural, like the other animals. One was an act of love done directly and personally by Him for and to each one of us.

It won't matter. He doesn't care if you accept the way He did it, or if you don't. Your salvation depends on other things. I would caution you that the doctrine of special creation has caused many people to lose their faith, when they learn that it cannot be true, and assume that it is the only acceptable belief for a Christian.

Barbarian,
I have to leave and cannot read everything you wrote. But you've written some incorrect doctrine.
Scripture tells us that living things were brought forth from the Earth. The difference is not that we were from the Earth, but that God made us a living spirit. Man is formed in his physical self, by natural means, but our immortal soul is given directly by God.

Where does it say this?? Living things were brought forth by God, not from the earth. Maybe I misunderstand what you mean?

The Bible says that God used nature to produce living things, being brought forth by previous created things, the earth, air, and water He had made.

No Barb. Scripture says that God made everythng, even the things of nature. He didn't use previously created things. That's what the word CREATE means. You must know that this word should be attributed ONLY to God - it is misused by us. Man cannot CREATE anything because he's using material already in existence. When God Created - nothing was in existence.

Also, every living creature was to create itself: Genesis 1:21-22 Genesis 1:24-25
Every "kind" reproduced itself.

It seems like science is getting closer to God - not farther.
Let There Be Light.
The Big Bang!

W

 

[Knotical]

I don't know knotical.
I think the bible is unclear because of different reasons.
Maybe there would have been too much to say. John 21:25
Maybe Jesus just thought we wouldn't understand.
We have to admit that there's a disconnect between what Jesus said and what Paul said. Did you ever notice this? Jesus was actually more works oriented and legalistic than Paul was! I know Jesus came to kill the Law, but He also said that it was not abolished. Whereas for Paul, we serve God in our SPIRIT.
I often wish Jesus had been more clear on many things.
Of course, the man of His day would not have understood about evolution. Each age has its own enlightenment.
I think the bible makes VERY clear what needs to be clear.
We're sinners and we were born that way
We must recognize this
We need a savior
Jesus is that savior
We must trust Him with our very soul
He died to pay the penalty and forgive sins
And in three days He rose again

W

Take a look at many of the interactions Jesus had with people during his ministry on this earth. There were plenty of examples where Jesus was explaining things to people and they just did not get what He was telling them, including His own disciples. This was because they were not meant to understand at that time, or possibly ever depending on the individual.

Jesus did not come to kill the law, but to fulfill it. Big difference.

Jesus did not promote works based salvation, but to highlight that it is impossible for anyone to secure their salvation on their own by following the law. Which is why He was sent in the first place.

The bible was written for a purpose and only those who have been given the gift of understanding through the Holy Spirit will truly understand what it teaches. So, just because someone does not understand what the bible is teaching does not mean there are errors within it, but that they have not been given the gift of understanding.

 

[Barbarian]

I have to leave and cannot read everything you wrote. But you've written some incorrect doctrine.
Scripture tells us that living things were brought forth from the Earth. The difference is not that we were from the Earth, but that God made us a living spirit. Man is formed in his physical self, by natural means, but our immortal soul is given directly by God.

Where does it say this?? Living things were brought forth by God, not from the earth.

Gen. 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

God uses nature for most things in this world. Why wouldn't He? That's why He made it.

Barbarian observes:
The Bible says that God used nature to produce living things, being brought forth by previous created things, the earth, air, and water He had made.

No Barb. Scripture says that God made everythng, even the things of nature.

Yes, He made everything. But as you see, He created nature, and then used nature to created other things. This is not a modern idea; Jewish and early Christian writers noted the fact.

He didn't use previously created things.

He says that the earth, air, and waters brought forth living things. It's in Genesis 1.

That's what the word CREATE means. You must know that this word should be attributed ONLY to God - it is misused by us. Man cannot CREATE anything because he's using material already in existence.

Absolutely correct. Here's more:
Gen. 1:[11] And he said: Let the earth bring forth the green herb, and such as may seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, which may have seed in itself upon the earth. And it was so done. [12] And the earth brought forth the green herb, and such as yieldeth seed according to its kind, and the tree that beareth fruit, having seed each one according to its kind. And God saw that it was good...
Gen. 1:[20] God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven...
Gen. 1:[24] And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done. [25] And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Note the symbolism. Three of the four classical elements were involved in creation of life. Earth, Air, and Water produced living things. The fourth was given only to man. God directly gives man an immortal soul, the fire of a living spirit. And then it is complete. Do you see how beautifully and fully, this story explains the majesty and wisdom of His creation?

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

When God Created - nothing was in existence.

Of course. But then He created nature, and then used nature to make other things. That is what He's saying in Genesis.

Also, every living creature was to create itself: Genesis 1:21-22 Genesis 1:24-25
Every "kind" reproduced itself.

Actually, it doesn't say that. It says living things are created according to their kind. It does not say that they reproduce according to kinds.

It seems like science is getting closer to God - not farther.
Let There Be Light.
The Big Bang!

You may know that the physicist who proposed the theory was a Catholic priest, and most of the critics of his theory opposed it, because it implied a beginning, and hence a creation.

 

[Cygnus]

Do you know why I used the words "maybe" and "could've"? Because we simply do not know, and we can not know. The bible never was clear on the generations subject, ever. But rather than taking the bible 100% at face value, and denying scientific evidence and saying "The world is only 6000 years old because the bible says so" we should be discerning. The bible is not clear on the matter, as such we must work with the bible with the information that scientists give us.

Far too much has been proven, far too many creatures have been discovered, far too many events have transpired, and all those things COULD NOT have happened within 6000 years, as simple as that.

Are you saying we should take the words of the scientist concerning the age of the earth....despite all the evidense that says their dating methods are less than desirable?

You also made up a list of "things" ...then presented them as if they could not be accomplished in 6K years. Can you support that?

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Scripture tells us that living things were brought forth from the Earth. The difference is not that we were from the Earth, but that God made us a living spirit. Man is formed in his physical self, by natural means, but our immortal soul is given directly by God.



That is a modern revision, not found in scripture.



The Bible says that God used nature to produce living things, being brought forth by previous created things, the earth, air, and water He had made.



Darwin's great discovery was that it was not random.



We are animals, formed like the others, except for that immortal soul that he gives immediately to each of us.



Of course. The precise "how" of our evolution as living things is immaterial to the "why" of His giving us an immortal soul. One was natural, like the other animals. One was an act of love done directly and personally by Him for and to each one of us.



It won't matter. He doesn't care if you accept the way He did it, or if you don't. Your salvation depends on other things. I would caution you that the doctrine of special creation has caused many people to lose their faith, when they learn that it cannot be true, and assume that it is the only acceptable belief for a Christian.

If we look at the direct Hebrew to English translation it states:

כ וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים--יִשְׁרְצוּ הַמַּיִם, שֶׁרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה; וְעוֹף יְעוֹפֵף עַל-הָאָרֶץ, עַל-פְּנֵי רְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמָיִם.
20 And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.'
כא וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-הַתַּנִּינִם הַגְּדֹלִים; וְאֵת כָּל-נֶפֶשׁ הַחַיָּה הָרֹמֶשֶׂת אֲשֶׁר שָׁרְצוּ הַמַּיִם לְמִינֵהֶם, וְאֵת כָּל-עוֹף כָּנָף לְמִינֵהוּ, וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב. 21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
כב וַיְבָרֶךְ אֹתָם אֱלֹהִים, לֵאמֹר: פְּרוּ וּרְבוּ, וּמִלְאוּ אֶת-הַמַּיִם בַּיַּמִּים, וְהָעוֹף, יִרֶב בָּאָרֶץ. 22 And God blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.'
כג וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם חֲמִישִׁי. {פ} 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. {P}
כד וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה לְמִינָהּ, בְּהֵמָה וָרֶמֶשׂ וְחַיְתוֹ-אֶרֶץ, לְמִינָהּ; וַיְהִי-כֵן. 24 And God said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so.
כה וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים אֶת-חַיַּת הָאָרֶץ לְמִינָהּ, וְאֶת-הַבְּהֵמָה לְמִינָהּ, וְאֵת כָּל-רֶמֶשׂ הָאֲדָמָה, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.


So, it states that "God made" and "after their kind". Yes, it does say "'Let the earth bring forth", however to stretch that into the ground sprouting out animals, is quite a claim.
The scripture specifically states, especially in this direct translation, in verse 5 "one day" then a second day, a third day, etc.

This is backed up by:

Exodus 20:11King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And this commentary:

Now, consider Exodus 20:1: “And God spoke all these words, saying . . . .” Because Jesus is the Word, this must be a reference to the preincarnate Christ speaking to Moses. As we know, there are a number of appearances of Christ (theophanies) in the Old Testament. John 1:18 states: “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.” There is no doubt, with rare exception, that the preincarnate Christ did the speaking to Adam, Noah, the patriarchs, Moses, etc. Now, when the Creator God spoke as recorded in Exodus 20:1, what did He (Jesus) say? As we read on, we find this statement: “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day” (Exodus 20:11).

Yes, Jesus did explicitly say He created in six days.3 Not only this, but the one who spoke the words “six days” also wrote them down for Moses: “Then the Lord delivered to me two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them were all the words which the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly” (Deuteronomy 9:10).

Jesus said clearly that He created in six days. And He even did something He didn’t do with most of Scripture—He wrote it down Himself. How clearer and more authoritative can you get than that?

 

[Cygnus]

There is nothing in God's revelation to us, that is contrary to evolutionary theory. It's contrary to some modern revisions to scripture, but not to His word as He gave it to us.

Well, when you think of it the bible mentions Eve was the first woman...mother of all living. Created from Adams rib. Now, that sounds pretty much in contrary to evolutionism to me. I would think that's not even a modern revisions to scripture

 

[GodsGrace]

Take a look at many of the interactions Jesus had with people during his ministry on this earth. There were plenty of examples where Jesus was explaining things to people and they just did not get what He was telling them, including His own disciples. This was because they were not meant to understand at that time, or possibly ever depending on the individual.

Jesus did not come to kill the law, but to fulfill it. Big difference.

Jesus did not promote works based salvation, but to highlight that it is impossible for anyone to secure their salvation on their own by following the law. Which is why He was sent in the first place.

The bible was written for a purpose and only those who have been given the gift of understanding through the Holy Spirit will truly understand what it teaches. So, just because someone does not understand what the bible is teaching does not mean there are errors within it, but that they have not been given the gift of understanding.

Hmm. I didn't say there were errors.

I agree with your first paragraph.
I agree with the second, I think I said the same thing.
I agree with paragraph 3.

I think we agree. There might be some nuance in there I'm not getting, but I think it doesn't matter.

W