About Healing

[Mysteryman]

Yes, I agree. But there are also times, when healing is not available because of unbelief.. God might be willing, and the one who prays for another has no doubt, but the one being ministered unto does have doubt. Any doubt would not bring about healing. Even Jesus didn't heal everyone, because of their unbelief. But where belief was eveident, most of the time there was healing.

Plenty of faithful people, including Paul, have not been healed in the physical sense. So you have to be careful when saying healing can hinge on their faith. When you do, you can further the doubt they have. They can question their beliefs, and you can leave them with continued illness AND doubt in their salvation.

Just try and remember that Jesus Christ himself didn't always heal because of their unbelief. And remember that doubt, any doubt is not faith. This does not mean that everyone one prays for is going to be heald. But if God give the revealing that healing is available, then by faith healing will take place.

 

[Mike]

What was Paul not healed of?

Good catch. I was mixing different threads. Paul's "thorn" was not physical in nature. Too many threads at once!

Just try and remember that Jesus Christ himself didn't always heal because of their unbelief. And remember that doubt, any doubt is not faith. This does not mean that everyone one prays for is going to be heald. But if God give the revealing that healing is available, then by faith healing will take place.

I disagree. "can" take place, yes. "will" take place, no. Whatever difficulties we encounter can have a greater purpose, even when that purpose is not for the person inflicted. I don't believe you can use Jesus' miracles to point to this conversation. They were used to fulfill prophecy and to demonstrate His divinity.

 

[Mysteryman]

What was Paul not healed of?

Good catch. I was mixing different threads. Paul's "thorn" was not physical in nature. Too many threads at once!

Just try and remember that Jesus Christ himself didn't always heal because of their unbelief. And remember that doubt, any doubt is not faith. This does not mean that everyone one prays for is going to be heald. But if God give the revealing that healing is available, then by faith healing will take place.

I disagree. "can" take place, yes. "will" take place, no. Whatever difficulties we encounter can have a greater purpose, even when that purpose is not for the person inflicted. I don't believe you can use Jesus' miracles to point to this conversation. They were used to fulfill prophecy and to demonstrate His divinity.

Hi

I already pointed out that the nine manifestations of the Spirit include healing. Those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire can operate all nine manifestations of the Spirit. Thus, speaking in tongues and gifts of healing etc.

Jesus Christ said, that these works shall you do, and greater works because I go unto the Father. And it was the apostle Paul who pointed out to the church in Corinth. that they could operate all nine manifestations of the Spirit.

 

[faithtransforms]

Jesus could do no great works in His hometown because of there unbelief. I'll give you the scripture ref later, I'm going to bed. Paul's thorn was not healed b/c he had been to the 3rd heaven and experienced unspeakable revelation that you and I will never know or experience. God allowed that thorn so that Paul would not become prideful. That is a little different of a situation than God having healed us today.

 

[awaken]

Jesus could do no great works in His hometown because of there unbelief. I'll give you the scripture ref later, I'm going to bed. Paul's thorn was not healed b/c he had been to the 3rd heaven and experienced unspeakable revelation that you and I will never know or experience. God allowed that thorn so that Paul would not become prideful. That is a little different of a situation than God having healed us today.

Paul tells us exactly what the "thorn" was: It was a "messenger of Satan" (2 Corinthians 12:7). Paul did not use a Greek word for sickness or disease in this verse, but instead he specifically used the Greek word for "angel," and he specifically told us that it was a demonic angel.

 

[faithtransforms]

Jesus could do no great works in His hometown because of there unbelief. I'll give you the scripture ref later, I'm going to bed. Paul's thorn was not healed b/c he had been to the 3rd heaven and experienced unspeakable revelation that you and I will never know or experience. God allowed that thorn so that Paul would not become prideful. That is a little different of a situation than God having healed us today.

Paul tells us exactly what the "thorn" was: It was a "messenger of Satan" (2 Corinthians 12:7). Paul did not use a Greek word for sickness or disease in this verse, but instead he specifically used the Greek word for "angel," and he specifically told us that it was a demonic angel.

Right, but you can be healed from the effects of a messenger of satan. Paul wasn't because God didn't want him to be delivered of that "lest he be exalted above measure" from the extreme depth of the revelation Paul had received. Particularly after he had been to the third heaven.

 

[faithtransforms]

Ok, so where does sickness come from? If you say God, I suggest you get your mind renewed immediately! There was no sickness in the Garden, but when Adam fell, sin (not a particular sin but the principle or energy of sin) permeated the earth. God's intent was never sickness. Now where did the sin that permeated the earth come from? Did it come from God? No. It flowed from the one who is sin himself, satan. satan's spirit became the spirit of this world, and he is the god of this world. Prior to the fall, God's Spirit permeated the earth. Adam and Eve were clothed in his glory. So, sickness came into the world through sin, and sin came into the world through satan. So where does sickness come from? Satan.

Now, let us look at the following scripture:

Colossians 1:12-13
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Now if you look up that word power, it is not dunamis power (like dynamite) it is exousia, which actually means "authority." So we have been delivered from satan's authority. He has no authority to do anything to us unless we let him. Before we were saved, we were under his authority. Now, we are in the kingdom of God's dear Son. So if sickness comes from satan, and we are delivered from his authority, then we do not have to put up with sickness. If we place our faith in God's Word, and truly believe it with all our heart and mind (no doubting whatsoever), we will be healed.

Now let us look at another scripture:

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Notice we are to glorify God with our bodies. Now, does God get glory out of the devil dominating you physically with sickness and disease? Could God get any glory out of a body, which is the temple of the Holy Ghost, being deformed or afflicted by the enemy with sickness and disease? No!!!!!!!!! (Not that someone born without legs can't give glory to God in his body, I am speaking specifically of us who are born whole.)

Now don't get me wrong, God has put sickness on sinners, but we are not sinners, we are the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS!

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

We DO NOT have to put up with sickness and disease, we are ALREADY in the kingdom of God. We have ALREADY been translated. Now do you think there is sickness in the kingdom of God in Heaven? No. Well, we are ALREADY IN THAT KINGDOM! But while we are on earth, satan will try to attack us with sickness and disease. But we don't have to let him win!!! We defeat sickness and sin with FAITH IN GOD'S WORD!!!

 

[jasoncran]

the problem with that line of thought is this. we have it all already and need to to strive to change our mind. and also we die, duh.

unless one actually believes the verse that says that though the outer man perish our inner man is renewed day by day.

perish that means to rot as in slowly decay.

 

[faithtransforms]

the problem with that line of thought is this. we have it all already and need to to strive to change our mind. and also we die, duh.

unless one actually believes the verse that says that though the outer man perish our inner man is renewed day by day.

perish that means to rot as in slowly decay.

What is wrong with the idea that a change of thinking is necessary? People don't want to change their thinking because its hard. Plain and simple.

Yes, we die. We have to get our resurrection body somehow, lol.

 

[jasoncran]

the problem with that line of thought is this. we have it all already and need to to strive to change our mind. and also we die, duh.

unless one actually believes the verse that says that though the outer man perish our inner man is renewed day by day.

perish that means to rot as in slowly decay.

What is wrong with the idea that a change of thinking is necessary? People don't want to change their thinking because its hard. Plain and simple.

Yes, we die. We have to get our resurrection body somehow, lol.

well maybe you should read the book called "the complet gospel", what you have said is preached there and it also defends the eternal security doctrine.it's theme, we are already sanctified. and that our visible person will eventualy line up with the facts in the spritual

 

[faithtransforms]

the problem with that line of thought is this. we have it all already and need to to strive to change our mind. and also we die, duh.

unless one actually believes the verse that says that though the outer man perish our inner man is renewed day by day.

perish that means to rot as in slowly decay.

What is wrong with the idea that a change of thinking is necessary? People don't want to change their thinking because its hard. Plain and simple.

Yes, we die. We have to get our resurrection body somehow, lol.

well maybe you should read the book called "the complet gospel", what you have said is preached there and it also defends the eternal security doctrine.it's theme, we are already sanctified. and that our visible person will eventualy line up with the facts in the spritual

Cool, thanks for the tip. You don't happen to know who the author is do you?

 

[jasoncran]

when i visit the first church of god i will ask,i know its written by a baptist minister.

 

[faithtransforms]

when i visit the first church of god i will ask,i know its written by a baptist minister.

Oh ok, cool!

 

[Dave...]

Hi Faith

I believe that chapter 1 sets the correct context for the rest of the book of Isaiah, and especially helps in understanding chapter 53.

Isaiah1:4-6 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

It's speaking of the nation of Israel's need of spiritual healing, using physical sickness as an analogy.

Isaiah 53:3-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.



The apostle Peter applies Isaiah 53:5 to salvation from sin.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Vs. 25 helps explain more.

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The expression healed (In 1 Peter 2:24) Means "to be forgiven." The phrase "you have returned to the shepard" shows what Peter means by "healed" in verse 24.



Is there a physical healing in the atonement?

There is a sense in which physical healing took place in the atoning work of Christ, but that healing waits to be realized in the future. The physical part of salvation (a physical wholeness) is something we look forward to, not something we possess today.

Rev. 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Other than the authentication of the message and the messenger, Jesus healed people to illustrate the healing in the glory to come. But that's not yet realized. If the healing of the atonement were fully realized now, no Christian would ever be sick or die. The atoning work of Christ spiritually transforms us now and will physically transform us in the future.

Hope this helps

Dave

 

[faithtransforms]

Well, I certainly appreciate your opinion and it does make sense. However, Psalms and Proverbs were not part of the law and did not pass away with the new covenant and there are many healing promises there (e.g. Ps 103, Ps 91).

And the fact remains that he became a curse for us so that we would be free from the curse. And God plainly stated that every disease was under that curse. So if we are no longer under the curse, we should expect to be healed and stand on God's promises. So even without Isaiah 53 or 1 PET 2:24, there are grounds to believe that healing is ours.

If some of you just want to let sickness and disease enter your bodies and just see doctors and things, of course that's fine and it's your choice (I'm not opposed to doctors). However, when I can speak to symptons in my body and stand on God's Word that I am healed from the curse, and my symptons go away and I'm healed, well, I'm gonna do it. I don't think God will be upset with me for believing that He wants me healed. So many people don't understand the goodness of God and just how much he wants to bless us. Healing, provision for our needs etc. I lost my job in Jan 09 suddenly. Well rather than freaking out like everybody else did, I decided to trust God, I just couldn't imagine MY GOD letting my whole world fall apart. One night I was moved by the Holy Spirit to sow a substantial financial seed into my church. Mind you I didn't have much left to live on. But I was obedient. And as I sowed the seed, I asked God to save my friend (a skeptic, scientific, intellectual type). Well, a month later I had gotten one of the best jobs I've ever had and 3 months later, my friend got saved. If people just believed God and His goodness and faithfulness and promises, many would find themselves in a much better position.

 

[faithtransforms]

dont forget to get out of that car

hmm i will add this the one thing that negates promised healing all the time, death.

we do die from something, some are killed, other die in an accident and other from disease and also organ failures. no one to to my knowledge has just died in full health. something causes you to die.

The Bible says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Why he didn't choose to redeem us from physical death on the cross, I do not know. However, it IS possible to die w/o being ill. If you are believing God for divine health daily and walking in it, the Lord will call you home when it's time and you will just exit your body. This does happen, but generally speaking, it only happens to those who believe God for it.

 

[awaken]

Jesus said in Mark 16:18 that those who believe in Him will lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover, and in the entire New Testament this promise was never canceled. Jesus said in Mark 16:17 that signs and wonders should follow believers as we obey the Great Commission, and in the entire New Testament this promise was never canceled. Jesus said in John 14:12 that those who believe in Him will do the same miracles He did, and in the entire New Testament this promise was never canceled. In the New Testament we see ordinary Christians operating in the gifts of the Spirit and demonstrating signs and wonders, just as Jesus promised. All of these promises are still in effect! We simply need to believe Jesus and then step out in faith, just as Peter stepped out of the boat in faith and walked on water (Matthew 14:29).

Divine healing is for today and it is for us. It is part of the ministry which Jesus began while He was on the earth and which He turned over to the Church in the Great Commission. It is part of our "job description" (so to speak) as a New Testament disciple of Jesus Christ.

In all of the examples of healing that God has provided in the New Testament, notice that:

There is not a single case where a person was told that his sickness was for the purpose of building character or patience in him.
There is not a single case where a sickness was called a "blessing."
There is not a single case where a sickness was left unhealed for the glory of God (this includes Lazarus, because Jesus resurrected him back to life and health).
There is not a single case where God used a sickness to bring one of His children Home to heaven.
There is not a single case where a person was told that it was not God's will for him to be healed.
There is not a single place in the entire New Testament which says that an "Age of Miracles" will end before Jesus returns.
There is not a single place in the entire New Testament which says that healings or miracles will ever "die out" before Jesus returns.

 

[Dave...]

We need to once again un-muddy the waters here between the gift of healing (healing through human agency), and God answering faithful prayer directly. There are other distinctions which I will also get into. If we throw all of these under one umbrella it will only serve to confuse, and that's not the goal of anyone here, right?

I have never seen a false doctrine make twice dead men like this one does. Many who teach this, in their 'plowing forward to do great things for God', never take the time to look back at the wake of destruction they leave behind themselves. And they DO leave a huge wake of destruction. Guess where the widows go when their husband didn't get healed from cancer "because he didn't have enough faith" (one example of many)? And that's just the ones who didn't walk away from the faith all together.



These believers below didn't need a sign BECAUSE they had faith. I'm sure they prayed for healing too, there's nothing wrong with that. But stop and think about why Paul didn't just heal them with a touch. Was this just an all around lack of faith?

"Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick."

(to Timothy who was sick)
"No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities"(1Timothy 5:23)

"but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I (Paul) preached the gospel to you Galatians)the first time; and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself. Galatians 4:13-14




Macarthur summed it up best for us concerning the gift of healing claims of today...

----------------------------------
2. THE HYPOCRISY OF MODERN HEALERS

The question I hear all the time is: "Well, how do you explain what goes on?" All right, let me ask you a question. Since none of the healers can heal with a word or a touch, instantaneously, totally, everybody, organic diseases, and raise the dead; since none of them have received the gift of healing from Jesus or the Apostles; since the Bible is complete, the revelation has ceased, and more signs are no longer necessary; since the Word needs no confirmation -- it is sufficient that the man of God might be perfect; since their healings are based on faulty theology of the atonement and salvation; since they disallow God His own purposes in having some people remain sick; since their personal lives are not known to manifest the fruit of the Spirit; since so many tricks, gimmicks, and special effects are often used; since the evidence is weak, unsupported, and so-called testimonies exaggerated; since they do not go to where the sick are, as Jesus did; since they cannot heal all who come to them; and since their healings can have other possible explanations rather than that God has acted supernaturally; let me ask you this question: "How do you explain it?" You can't explain it biblically -- it is fraud, they are deceived. Maybe they don't know they are deceived; maybe they are honestly deceived, but they are deceived.

3. THE HEALING OF GOD

You say, "Are you saying God doesn't heal?" No. God answers prayer. Second, God heals in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith to manifest His own glory. Don't say I don't believe God heals. I've seen Him heal. I've seen Him heal miraculously. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory in response to faithful prayer. God heals. But, God does not heal everybody and God no longer heals through the apostolic gift of healing. That gift has ceased."

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1857.htm
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1858.htm

BTW, where do these modern day healers go when they are sick? Read for yourselves.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/healthyself.html
http://www.letusreason.org/Wf25.htm
---------------------------



Here's the standard for the gift of healing...

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Jesus healed them all.

Acts 5:12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. 15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. 16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Peter healed them all.

Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Paul healed them all.



The gift of healing was limited to Jesus, the Apostles, the seventy, and a few close associates like Phillip. It was meant to confirm the message and the messenger. And remember, the apostles are among those listed as the gifted -- they were part of God's plan at that time and therefore also part of His Church.

"Why did Jesus heal with a word or a touch, instantaneously, totally, everybody, those with organic diseases, and raise the dead? Did He do it to infatuate or play games with the people? John 20:30-31 gives the reason: "And many other signs truly did Jesus...but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." This gift was an authenticating gift to confirm the statement of Jesus that He is God. You say, "But what about when the Apostles healed?" It was to confirm their proclamation."Macarthur.



Dave

 

[Mike]

Thank you, Dave.

You've said much more succinctly, what I have been trying to say all along. Very well said. Given the entirety of your post, I'll be anxious to see how those who believe God physically heals all who have faith will respond.

 

[Dave...]

Thanks for the encouragment, mjjcb

Jesus said that even the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. That directly contradicts the "not enough faith" claim of the charismatics.

My reply here kind of fits this thread also...6th post down...

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46477&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Dave