Abraham, Saved by Belief Only?

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you think it's possible to get righteousness back through repentance and forgivness?

No.
It's impossible to be brought back to repentance.

"in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

And I let God decide when a person has fallen to the point of no return. People occasionally drop into the forums saying how they used to believe, but departed from the faith and can't believe anymore, but now want to again. I refuse to tell them they don't have a chance. It's so serious that I let them sort it out with God. I believe God is looooooooong suffering, so I don't want to write them off before God does.

This is my point with Abraham's justifications. He was justified in Gen. 12, somehow lost it, then regained it in Gen. 15. Do you think that is possible?

No.

 

[dadof10]

No.
It's impossible to be brought back to repentance.

"in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

And I let God decide when a person has fallen to the point of no return. People occasionally drop into the forums saying how they used to believe, but departed from the faith and can't believe anymore, but now want to again. I refuse to tell them they don't have a chance. It's so serious that I let them sort it out with God. I believe God is looooooooong suffering, so I don't want to write them off before God does.

Ah, that's right. I remember now. We covered this about a couple of years ago. It sounded familiar, but I couldn't remember your take. It's kinda off topic here. Did we go into how Hebrews says that Abraham had obedient faith in Gen. 12, yet was not justified? If so, maybe you could refresh my memory as to your take, since this is on topic?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did we go into how Hebrews says that Abraham had obedient faith in Gen. 12, yet was not justified? If so, maybe you could refresh my memory as to your take, since this is on topic?

Your argument is that Abraham was credited righteousness in Genesis 15:6 NASB long after having done works of faith (like leaving his homeland), and that it is upon those previous works of faith, before Genesis 15:6, that he is declared righteous:

"8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going." (Hebrews 11:8 NASB)

But the problem is you're at the same doctrinal impasse at this point in his life here in Genesis 12:4 that you are in Genesis 15:6. How does him leaving his homeland prove that his leaving is the actual thing that justified him and not the faith all by itself that motivated the action? Your doctrine can no more answer that question in Genesis 12:4 NASB than it can in Genesis 15:6 NASB.

Protestant theology doesn't have this impasse. Genesis 15:6 NASB plainly says Abraham believed God and his belief was counted to him as righteousness. At this place in scripture there are no immediate works attached to his believing to confuse the matter (if it really is confused) as to which, his faith or the action of his faith, was Abraham actually declared righteous through. We don't have to wonder, because even Paul points out what the passage actually says that it was his believing that justified him (Romans 4:5 NASB).

Your doctrine further frustrate the issue by trying to qualify 'works' in the passage as being only the ceremonial parts of the law of Moses and saying it is those works specifically that can't justify a person. Problem is, by virtue of what 'believing' is and it being contrasted with 'work', any and all work is equaling contrasted with believing.

There is no work, in or out of the law, that can somehow be equivalent to the believing that Paul is contrasting it with. Do you understand what I'm saying? There is no distinguishable feature of any work that somehow removes it from being on the other side of the 'not equal to' sign between believing and works over to the side of faith in Paul's discourse about what can't justify and what can.

 

[dadof10]

Your argument is that Abraham was credited righteousness in Genesis 15:6 NASB long after having done works of faith (like leaving his homeland), and that it is upon those previous works of faith, before Genesis 15:6, that he is declared righteous:

"8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going." (Hebrews 11:8 NASB)

But the problem is you're at the same doctrinal impasse at this point in his life here in Genesis 12:4 that you are in Genesis 15:6. How does him leaving his homeland prove that his leaving is the actual thing that justified him and not the faith all by itself that motivated the action? Your doctrine can no more answer that question in Genesis 12:4 NASB than it can in Genesis 15:6 NASB.

Protestant theology doesn't have this impasse. Genesis 15:6 NASB plainly says Abraham believed God and his belief was counted to him as righteousness. At this place in scripture there are no immediate works attached to his believing to confuse the matter (if it really is confused) of which, his faith or the action of his faith, was Abraham actually declared righteous through. We don't have to wonder, because even Paul points out what the passage actually says that it was his believing that justified him (Romans 4:5 NASB).

Your doctrine further frustrate the issue by trying to qualify 'works' in the passage as being only the ceremonial parts of the law of Moses and saying it is those works specifically that can't justify a person. Problem is, by virtue of what 'believing' is and it being contrasted with 'work', any and all work is equaling contrasted with believing.

There is no work, in or out of the law, that can somehow be equivalent to the believing that Paul is contrasting it with. Do you understand what I'm saying? There is no distinguishable feature of any work that somehow removes it from being on the other side of the 'not equal to' sign between believing and works in Paul's discourse about what can't justify and what can.

I think you are combining two subjects here. Whereas I do believe that we are justified by obedience to God (faith being taken for granted, of course) and dammed by disobedience, it is a separate subject from the re-justification of Abraham. My point is that justifIcation is a process. No matter what justified Abraham in Gen. 12 (faith alone or obedience), the fact is, he was justified when he had obedient faith in Gen. 12. He was then re-justified, by faith in Gen. 15. This proves that justification is a process and that we can lose and regain it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No matter what justified Abraham in Gen. 12 (faith alone or obedience), the fact is, he was justified when he had obedient faith in Gen. 12.

The passage doesn't actually say that. You have to add to scripture to make it say that. It doesn't mean his faith was not commendable in Genesis 12:4 NASB. It means we don't know if Abraham was made righteous (justified) prior to where it plainly says his believing all by itself in Genesis 15:6 NASB made him righteous before God.

You see Paul doesn't use Abraham's faith/works before Genesis 15:6 to teach us that being made righteous is by faith apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB). He uses the place where Abraham believes without any work attached and where God then declares him righteous.

And as for your other argument, I pointed out, there is no quality of ANY work on the opposing side of the faith vs. works for justification argument that somehow moves it over to the 'faith' side of the argument. Faith by definition is different than any and all work. A definition that the Bible itself gives us:

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1 NASB)

Faith is defined as 'assurance' and 'conviction', not work. It's wrong to try to equate faith and works so as to make them interchangeable in an argument that says a man is justified (MADE righteous) by works.

 

[JLB]

We're talking about justification. You aren't addressing the argument.
What about justification?

Justification occurs when a person believes in their heart...
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

Believing is the where it starts, but the righteousness "results" WHEN obedience occurs.

You are making the mistake of thinking that "resulting in" means immediately right now.., which is the mistake that OSAS folks make.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Here is the same word, [unto in Romans 10:10] used by Paul earlier in Romans 6 -

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16 NKJV

Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves [as] servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:16 NASB


That's what James teaches and that what Paul is teaching here.

Again, you are attempting to separate the act of obedience from
The principle of faith.

Paul is teaching the same principle that James teaches, concerning salvation by faith.

You are attempting to take a half of a verse, from a verse that teaches a whole principle, and separate it from the whole principle of faith, which is faith working together with the action of obedience, results in Salvation...


You are attempting to prove that the principle of "believing all by itself" with no corresponding action of obedience, results in the same thing as faith with obedience.


Throughout the book of Romans, Paul teaches us that Salvation by faith in Jesus Christ gives us the hope of Salvation, not the literal obtaining of Salvation that we given when Jesus Christ returns to resurrect us from the dead and grant to us immortality.

For now we have the hope of salvation... as Paul teaches in Romans 8 -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Again in Romans 6 -

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Romans 6:22


Again in Romans 2 -

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 2:4-10


Again in Romans 10:10 Paul is saying, just what he has expounded over and over, throughout the book of Romans...

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness...

with the heart one believes leading to righteousness...

Like James teaches, under the same inspiration of the same Holy Spirit...

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:17-26

Just like a body without a spirit is incomplete and does not function, so also faith without the corresponding action of obedience is also incomplete and does not function.

Abraham was justified WHEN HE OBEYED...

Like we are justified WHEN we obey the Gospel, by turning to God with our confession of Jesus as Lord.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

The passage doesn't actually say that. You have to add to scripture to make it say that. It doesn't mean his faith was not commendable in Genesis 12:4 NASB. It means we don't know if Abraham was made righteous (justified) prior to where it plainly says his believing all by itself in Genesis 15:6 NASB made him righteous before God.

You see Paul doesn't use Abraham's faith/works before Genesis 15:6 to teach us that being made righteous is by faith apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB). He uses the place where Abraham believes without any work attached and where God then declares him righteous.

And as for your other argument, I pointed out, there is no quality of ANY work on the opposing side of the faith vs. works for justification argument that somehow moves it over to the 'faith' side of the argument. Faith by definition is different than any and all work. A definition that the Bible itself gives us:

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1 NASB)

Faith is defined as 'assurance' and 'conviction', not work. It's wrong to try to equate faith and works so as to make them interchangeable in an argument that says a man is justified (MADE righteous) by works.

OK, doesn't obedient faith justify? I was under the impression that you thought it did. Does Scripture have to say the words "declared righteous" before you will believe a person was justified? Since it is "faith alone" that justifies, isn't it enough to show a person having "obedient faith" to prove justification?

 

[Seabass]

Rom 4:12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

The true descendants of Abraham are those that have a faith like Abraham's faith that "walk".
The verb "walk" carries the idea of Abraham having an obedient, working faith. The present tense, active voice of "walk" also denotes that this walk is not something done for a moment then stopped or done sporadically but is a sustained, ongoing action.

Coffman Commentary aptly puts it: "The word "walk" or "tread" is in the Greek New Testament, and it should be in all valid translations of the word of God; but that expression is so obviously a reference to obedience that it cannot fit into the theories of salvation by faith alone;....... It is admitted by all that Christians are saved by the same kind of faith Abraham had, before circumcision and the law; and a further study of the steps of Abraham's faith will reveal that obedience was coupled with it, and that it was by obedient faith that Abraham was justified."

Abraham's walk of faith began in Gen 12 with his obedient work in leaving his land, house and kindred for a land God would show him.

 

[smaller]

Abraham believed God. What did Abraham believe?

Abraham believed that he would receive a son of promise, which was given to him "figuratively" in the form of Isaac.

Hebrews 11:
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Any of us can now see this figure is now a reality fact, of Jesus, raised from the dead. Abraham's hand was withheld from sacrificing Isaac. And that is what Isaac represented. A figure of Him who was to come. And this, in the figurative sense, is what Abraham also believed.

That he would receive a son of promise, and that even if that son were killed, God would in fact raise him from the dead.

Paul elaborates in Galatians 4 that we ourselves are "like" Isaac, being children of the promise.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

What promise? The promise that God in Christ will change our vile body, to be "like" His, even as One.

There is no amount of "works" that empower us to make this change, out of our vile body, because it is only One Directional, by His Power Alone. A flicker of light, a candle of faith, a foretelling of the promises of Christ by faith? Yes, yes, and yes. But the power to make that last change, repealing of the power of death itself? No. That comes at the end, when the power of death is destroyed by Christ. Literally swallowed up "in His Eternal Endless Life." 1 Cor. 15:54-55

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

God has given us the gift of His Son. We believe in the promise of Him, no different than Abraham did. Supposedly with even better sight, since we now see in retrospect, where Abraham viewed Christ, to come. But Abraham, just as we, look to the fulfillment of that promise, which is forward looking, to the end game of Phil. 3:21.

Those who seek to justify their flesh are wasting their breath. It is guaranteed to FAIL, and was never meant to be anything but a temporal clay shell for our present habitation, with all it's inherent faults, which we can never 'rid' ourselves of, because it is earthly and failing and meant to fail.

We can bang our collective heads against the christian theological wall, and will never justify the fact that we are all planted in red, which is our present factual contention, that will fail, and will not be "saved."

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

There is never any glory available to a wet dust pile, doomed to failure and corruption. And sowing to it reaps even more corruption i.e. hastens it's demise into corruption. The flesh is a present "burden" that we all bear. It can't be justified. It can only fail, progressively, until it dies. Our "promise" is planted in very certain failing states: Dishonor, corruption and weakness. 1 Cor. 15:43-49. These things can not be anything other than what they are. No amounts of works will change any of this present reality. Trying to justify weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural clay shell, a natural flesh body, is a waste of time. It hangs our our respective crosses, as rightfully, justifiably DEAD, because of the presence of indwelling sin, and the internal temptations of the tempter that it is subject and subjected to in this present temporal realm.

 

[Kidron]

Always get you answer from the source, His Word.

Abraham was a doer and a believer.

And many a believer use to be a doer and are now just saved by Grace through Faith just like they were before they ever did anything but get saved by believing the Gospel they heard.

 

[Drew]

And many a believer use to be a doer and are now just saved by Grace through Faith just like they were before they ever did anything but get saved by believing the Gospel they heard.

I am curious: what do you think was in Paul's mind when he dictated these words to his scribe:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

Seems to me to be a clear, unambiguous declaration that the basis for being awarded eternal life is how we have lived.

 

[Jim Parker]

Justification is entirely on the basis of trusting God (Romans 4:5 NASB).

So what do I do with Jas 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

[/QUOTE]Salvation, on the other hand, is given on the Day of Wrath to those who have works as the evidence of that faith (James 2:18 NASB). [/QUOTE]

Jas 2:18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

That is NOT what James is talking about in that passage. That verse tells us that it is impossible to demonstrate one's faith without DOING something. Our actions declare our faith

[/QUOTE] Now I will read the rest of the OP

Justification is by faith, all by itself.
Salvation is granted to those who show they have that faith by what they do.
Dead faith--a 'faith' that can not be seen in what it does--can not save. For a person to be saved on the Day of Wrath, they must be, both, justified (made righteous) by faith, and justified (shown to be righteous) by works.[/QUOTE]

Here's what Paul said:

Rom 2:6-10 For he (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Sounds like I need to have faith AND do good works.

iakov's 2 kopecks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So what do I do with Jas 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

What do you do with James 2:24, you ask? You realize that 'justified' has two different meanings, and context shows us James is using the word in regard to 'showing' one to be righteous, not 'making' one to be righteous as Paul uses the word in Romans.

Works show us to be righteous, while faith all by itself, apart from works, is what makes us righteous. We have to be justified both ways in order to be saved on the Day of Wrath. The proof of our faith has to be in the pudding on the Day of Wrath. Not because works have some kind of power to make one righteous, but because works are the evidence of a genuine and continuing faith that does.

"show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”" (James 2:18 NASB bold mine)



.

 

[Jim Parker]

What do you do with James 2:24, you ask? You realize that 'justified' has two different meanings, and context shows us James is using the word in regard to 'showing' one to be righteous, not 'making' one to be righteous as Paul uses the word in Romans.

The thesis of the passage we call "chapter 2" is that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. Therefore, the word translated "justified" has the same meaning for James as it does for Paul. The notion that works are some kind of public demonstration of one's salvation is an invention of those who hold to the false teaching that it is not necessary for a Christian to do the good works for which God created him. That doing those works is necessary is specifically stated by Christ when he said;
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of
My Father in heaven ( Mat 7:21)

By those words, Jesus confirms James' teaching that belief alone (those who say "Lord, Lord" but do no works) is not sufficient for salvation but, rather, those who enter the Kingdom of heaven have both faith (declare Jesus Lord) and works (do the will of the Father.)


[/QUOTE]Works show us to be righteous, while faith all by itself, apart from works, is what makes us righteous. We have to be justified both ways in order to be saved on the Day of Wrath. The proof of our faith has to be in the pudding on the Day of Wrath. Not because works have some kind of power to make one righteous, but because works are the evidence of a genuine and continuing faith that does.

"show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”" (James 2:18 NASB bold mine) [/QUOTE]

Yet James specifically said: ( 2:20-24) But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

It is not a question of us having "some kind of power to make one righteous." It is a question of obeying the command of the Lord.

Works are indeed the evidence of one's justification but they are not some form of mindless, automatic behavior resulting from having said a "sinner's prayer" and confessed Christ. They are the result of a believer's free will decisions to do those good works at every opportunity.

Thus Paul stated:
(God) “will render to each one according to his WORKS” eternal life to those who by patient continuance in
doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the
truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who
does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is
good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Rom 2:6-10)

That is a clear statement that eternal life is given to those who make it their life's purpose to do the good works for which God created them.

As for those who "believe" but do not do good works, they are in the company with the demons who also believe that Jesus is Lord but have the good sense to tremble in fear of their coming judgment.

It is my opinion that the modern, western, "faith without works" gospel is one reason the Church in the west has become more and more irrelevant to a secular society which sees very little, if any, difference in the behaviors of purported Christians and the behaviors of the general population. "Faith without works" encourages the notion that we may sin because we are under grace. (Ro 6:15)

I also see a distortion of the Gospel in the idea that, once a person has confessed Christ, that he can be sure of his salvation. Paul certainly did not see it that way.

Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for
whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found
in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the
righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the
fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection
from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold
of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended;
but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are
ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. ( Phl 3:8-14)

Paul was not sure of his salvation until he received the sentence of death as Caesar's punishment for preaching the Gospel, until he knew he had been given the blessed grace of a martyr's death for the cause of Christ. Then he was able to look back over his life and to say "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith." ( 2Ti 4:7) HE kept the faith by being faithful to the Lord's calling; by doing the works which God had prepared beforehand that he should do them.

Yet, multitudes are told, "all you have to do is believe" and preachers of this cheap grace fill the pews with "believers" who are unaware that they will be required to give an accounting for the talent which their Lord had given them. Pray that you do not encourage anyone to bury that talent rather than to put it to use and to bring increase to their Lord.

my 2 kopecks
iakov

 

[dadof10]

The thesis of the passage we call "chapter 2" is that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. Therefore, the word translated "justified" has the same meaning for James as it does for Paul. The notion that works are some kind of public demonstration of one's salvation is an invention of those who hold to the false teaching that it is not necessary for a Christian to do the good works for which God created him. That doing those works is necessary is specifically stated by Christ when he said;
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of
My Father in heaven ( Mat 7:21)

By those words, Jesus confirms James' teaching that belief alone (those who say "Lord, Lord" but do no works) is not sufficient for salvation but, rather, those who enter the Kingdom of heaven have both faith (declare Jesus Lord) and works (do the will of the Father.)

Works show us to be righteous, while faith all by itself, apart from works, is what makes us righteous. We have to be justified both ways in order to be saved on the Day of Wrath. The proof of our faith has to be in the pudding on the Day of Wrath. Not because works have some kind of power to make one righteous, but because works are the evidence of a genuine and continuing faith that does.

"show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”" (James 2:18 NASB bold mine)

Yet James specifically said: ( 2:20-24) But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

It is not a question of us having "some kind of power to make one righteous." It is a question of obeying the command of the Lord.

Works are indeed the evidence of one's justification but they are not some form of mindless, automatic behavior resulting from having said a "sinner's prayer" and confessed Christ. They are the result of a believer's free will decisions to do those good works at every opportunity.

Thus Paul stated:
(God) “will render to each one according to his WORKS” eternal life to those who by patient continuance in
doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the
truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who
does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is
good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Rom 2:6-10)

That is a clear statement that eternal life is given to those who make it their life's purpose to do the good works for which God created them.

As for those who "believe" but do not do good works, they are in the company with the demons who also believe that Jesus is Lord but have the good sense to tremble in fear of their coming judgment.

It is my opinion that the modern, western, "faith without works" gospel is one reason the Church in the west has become more and more irrelevant to a secular society which sees very little, if any, difference in the behaviors of purported Christians and the behaviors of the general population. "Faith without works" encourages the notion that we may sin because we are under grace. (Ro 6:15)

I also see a distortion of the Gospel in the idea that, once a person has confessed Christ, that he can be sure of his salvation. Paul certainly did not see it that way.

Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for
whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found
in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the
righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the
fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection
from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold
of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended;
but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are
ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. ( Phl 3:8-14)

Paul was not sure of his salvation until he received the sentence of death as Caesar's punishment for preaching the Gospel, until he knew he had been given the blessed grace of a martyr's death for the cause of Christ. Then he was able to look back over his life and to say "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith." ( 2Ti 4:7) HE kept the faith by being faithful to the Lord's calling; by doing the works which God had prepared beforehand that he should do them.

Yet, multitudes are told, "all you have to do is believe" and preachers of this cheap grace fill the pews with "believers" who are unaware that they will be required to give an accounting for the talent which their Lord had given them. Pray that you do not encourage anyone to bury that talent rather than to put it to use and to bring increase to their Lord.

my 2 kopecks
iakov

Well put.

 

[Jim Parker]

Well put.

Thank you for encouraging my behavior.

iakov

 

[Ph8th]

What works did the thief on the cross do?
Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel
Mark 1:14-15 (NASB)

I never knew love so true
Until I knew love from You
It is a gift given
Not for what I do
It is the gift of grace
That comes from You
Thank You Jesus
​

peter

 

[Jim Parker]

What works did the thief on the cross do?
Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel

What works was he physically able to do? All he was physically able to do was to confess that he was a sinner deserving the punishment he was suffering and to ask Jesus for mercy.

Are you nailed to a cross and about to die or are you physically able to do good works?

Has anything rendered you incapable of doing any good works?

If anyone really believes the Gospel, he will do his best to do the things the scriptures tell him to do. Don't you think so?

You were created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared beforehand, that you should do them. (Eph 2:10) Is there any good reason why you would NOT do them?

Of course you don't have to do them. You have free will to reject God's will for your life, go do your own thing, and end up in hell if you so desire. But why in the world would you even consider making making such a choice?

If you're a Christian, ( and I believe you are) then it behooves you to act like a son of God who does the will of his father and not to fabricate rationalizations about why you are exempt from doing the good works which God your father created you to do.

But if you still insist that you don't have to do those good works then I suggest you consider working on a really good answer to the following question: Why did you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and did not do what I told you? ( Luke 6:46)

Jus' sayin' ........

my 2 kopecks
iakov

 

[Ph8th]

Are you nailed to a cross and about to die or are you physically able to do good works?

Has anything rendered you incapable of doing any good works?

If anyone really believes the Gospel, he will do his best to do the things the scriptures tell him to do. Don't you think so?

What do you consider good works? What good works do you do? Do you do them regularly? Are some better than others?

peter

 

[Jim Parker]

What do you consider good works?

Generally, acts of mercy and love and serving according to your charisms.

[/QUOTE] What good works do you do? [/QUOTE]

Generally, acts of mercy and love and serving according to my charisms.

[/QUOTE] Do you do them regularly? [/QUOTE]

Yes.

[/QUOTE] Are some better than others? [/QUOTE]

I don't know. Some are harder to do than others, like being patient and kind to someone who is being a total jerk and then forgiving him when he doesn't care. But I don't think that makes them "better," just more difficult. I think that they are either good or evil.

What do you think Jesus meant by the following:

So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ( Mat 7:17-19)

my 2 kopecks
iakov