Abraham, Saved by Belief Only?

[llama]

This is just a speculation, but maybe in gen12 abraham was trusting in works to save him, it does not say his faith saved him then. He probably dropped his self righteous works based salvation in gen15 and got saved by faith only when he realized he couldn't save himself, many people come from different religions and are engraved with works having to save them, if you end up going to hell by faith alone in Jesus, it will only be if Jesus was not the Son of God. However Jesus says "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." —Matthew 7:22,23 if casting out devils and doing many wonderful works not enough to be saved, then maybe EXTREMELY wonderful works have saving power to them? I'll claim the promise by faith, check my other threads they have all the truth you will need to understand that salvation is by faith only

 

[dadof10]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/romans_213.htm once again, I'll copy and paste:
Tragically, the author of the preceding statement is woefully ignorant of the Scriptures. Romans 2:7 says, “To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.” Taken by itself, Romans 2:7 would seem to imply that good works are required for salvation. An even more powerful Scripture that would seem to support this same notion is found in Romans 2:13, “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Now please careful read Romans 3:20, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” We have a 100% direct contradiction here. Indeed, this has confused many people who are ignorant of the Scriptures, including the author of the evangelicaloutreach.org website.

So what is the answer? Which is it... are we justified by obeying the works of the Law or not? Romans 2:13 says, YES. Romans 3:20 says, NO. Why the contradiction? What's going on here?

The answer is quite simple. There were a group of Jews in Paul's time who believed that they could be saved by keeping the Law. This is abundantly clear from Romans 2:17, “Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God.” Those Jews were RESTING, or relying upon the keeping of God's Law, to save them. The Apostle Paul goes on, from Romans 2:18 to Romans 3:19, to inform the Jews that they hadn't done a very good job of keeping the Law and were a bunch of hypocrites! He concludes his indictment against them with Romans 3:20, “THEREFORE by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Just as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org errantly wrestles the Scriptures, so also did the Jews foolishly think that salvation requires our own self-righteousness. Paul told the Jews in Romans 2:7-13 that if they were to be justified by the Law, then they would have to KEEP IT 100%; but none of them had, which is plainly stated in Romans 3:12, “They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” The Jews were resting in a false hope, thinking that they had kept the Law to God's satisfaction; but Paul clearly points out that they had utterly failed to do so. It is impossible for any man or woman to keep God's Law perfectly. Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Paul makes clear that the PURPOSE of God's Law is to show men their sinful condition, “...for by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20b).

The Apostle Paul reiterates the purpose of God's Law in Romans 7:13, “Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.” The Law shows mankind his inability to please God in his own self-righteousness. No one can keep the whole Law of God, no one. We all fall short of pleasing God. Mankind tried to keep God's Law and utterly failed. God's Law had served its purpose in showing men their sinful condition and; thus, need for a Savior. God DIDN'T give us the Law to merit or work our way into Heaven. This is what many people foolishly believe. That is self-righteousness. Persisting to do good is NOT a part of salvation as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org teaches.

There is NO contradiction in the Scriptures. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether or not a person is willing to change their sinful habits has nothing to do with being saved. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith. Salvation is receiving; not giving. Eternal life is God's gift to fallen humanity (Romans 5:15; 6:23).

Certainly, “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2nd Corinthians 5:17); however, the spiritual regeneration which has taken place (i.e., the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ) doesn't mean that immediate reformation will follow. Growth in grace takes time. 1st Peter 2:2 teaches this Biblical truth, “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.” Expecting a babe in Christ to forsake their sinful habits is like expecting a baby to run a marathon. I am not approving of sin or saying it's acceptable for a believer to continue living in sin, not at all; I am simply saying that salvation has absolutely NOTHING to do with cleaning up one's life. The changed lifecomes AFTER a person is saved, as a result of being saved; and not as a requirement to be saved. That's the big difference that so many people don't understand. Salvation is obtained solely by Christ's righteousness, and not by our own self-righteousness or human effort in any way.

John 6:29, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom he hath sent.” The only work which God requires from a lost sinner to be saved is that he or she BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

The authors entire premise is that unless we agree with his "faith alone" doctrine, Scripture contradicts. This is easily reconciled by simply realizing that the word "works" does not mean "all things done" when contrasted with faith. Paul is contrasting works OF THE LAW to faith. From Rom. 1:18-2:11 Paul is talking about sins, deeds, not "works of the law". The author misses this crucial point. There is no contradiction between Rom. 2:6-11 and all the "faith vs. works" passages because Paul is contrasting "works of the law" with faith, not "good deeds".

 

[llama]

Well if there are 3 verses that suggest salvation is by works, and 100s that it's by faith alone, isn't there a possibility that overthrowing the whole bible with a few verses might be a mistake, also if you had to work for a gift which is what salvation is, it would be more like a loan, or a pawn, romans 5 15 calls our salvation a free gift. Explain to me which good work do we do to receive a free gift called eternal life (salvation)? Look at Isaiah 64 6 all our righteousness are as filthy rags. How can filthy rags have any saving power to them, when presented to the king of the universe who is a CONSUMING FIRE? Do you really think you can dwell with God for all eternity because you presented him a filthy rag?

 

[dadof10]

This is just a speculation, but maybe in gen12 abraham was trusting in works to save him, it does not say his faith saved him then. He probably dropped his self righteous works based salvation in gen15 and got saved by faith only when he realized he couldn't save himself, many people come from different religions and are engraved with works having to save them, if you end up going to hell by faith alone in Jesus, it will only be if Jesus was not the Son of God. However Jesus says "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." —Matthew 7:22,23 if casting out devils and doing many wonderful works not enough to be saved, then maybe EXTREMELY wonderful works have saving power to them? I'll claim the promise by faith, check my other threads they have all the truth you will need to understand that salvation is by faith only

So, Abraham being saved by obedient faith is "speculation", yet "maybe in gen12 abraham was trusting in works to save him" and "He probably dropped his self righteous works based salvation in gen15 and got saved by faith only when he realized he couldn't save himself" isn't? "Maybe" and "probably" are speculative words, Llama.

 

[llama]

I stated I was speculating, it sure does not say he got saved twice, the Bible says born again, not again and again and again, he could of only been born again once, anyway I don't think I can make my position more clear (Edited, ToS 2.4 Belittling comment. Obadiah), hope you put all your faith on him and get saved

 

[dadof10]

Well if there are 3 verses that suggest salvation is by works, and 100s that it's by faith alone, isn't there a possibility that overthrowing the whole bible with a few verses might be a mistake, also if you had to work for a gift which is what salvation is, it would be more like a loan, or a pawn, romans 5 15 calls our salvation a free gift. Explain to me which good work do we do to receive a free gift called salvation? Look at Isaiah 64 6 all our righteousness are as filthy rags. How can filthy rags have any saving power to them, when presented to the king of the universe who is a CONSUMING FIRE? Do you really think you can dwell with God for all eternity because you presented him a filthy rag?

I'm not "overthrowing" anything. Merely stating that the word "works" does not mean "all deeds". It means "works of the Jewish law". Paul is not making any comment at all about charity, baptism, prayer, etc. He is only responding to the "Judiaizers" in Acts 15. This solves the "contradiction" problem assumed by the author of these articles you keep pasting.

 

[llama]

It doesn't matter if it's doing good deeds, or giving up sins like following the law, it's all called works, and sinning is called bad works

 

[Drew]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/romans_213.htm once again, I'll copy and paste:
Tragically, the author of the preceding statement is woefully ignorant of the Scriptures.

Well, we will see how this actually plays out. I will let the record of the interaction that is about to unfold speak to this opinion.

Romans 2:7

says, “To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.” Taken by itself, Romans 2:7 would seem to imply that good works are required for salvation.

Um, yeah. That's because what Paul writes is clear and unambiguous - there will a judgment at which eternal life is awarded according to what what we have done. Paul's words, not mine.

An even more powerful Scripture that would seem to support this same notion is found in Romans 2:13, “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Now please careful read Romans 3:20, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” We have a 100% direct contradiction here.

We do not, although I certainly understand why you would think so. Let me set aside Romans 2:13 just for the moment - I will not let it slide forever, fear not.

Just as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org errantly wrestles the Scriptures, so also did the Jews foolishly think that salvation requires our own self-righteousness. Paul told the Jews in Romans 2:7-13 that if they were to be justified by the Law, then they would have to KEEP IT 100%;

Paul never says anything of the kind in Romans 2:7-13.

Paul makes clear that the PURPOSE of God's Law is to show men their sinful condition, “...for by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20b).

Notice how in Romans 2:6-7, Paul never says that those who do the works of the Law of Moses will get eternal life, it is those who "persist in doing good". Not the same thing:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

I will get to other elements of your argument later. But here is a question that I am quite sure you will not be able to answer, even though it is a very simple question. It is this:

Why would Paul write this:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

....if he did not believe it? I eagerly anticipate your answer.

 

[llama]

(Post removed. Off topic. The subject of this thread is not which Bible translation is better. Obadiah.)

 

[Drew]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

And he had that faith BEFORE he did anything. He was counted righteous BEFORE he did anything. His faith, all by itself, made him legally righteous before God.

In my opinion (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) completely false!
In my opinion (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) completely unbiblical !

Faith all by itself is dead.
James 2:17

Fortunately, Abraham as recorded in the scriptures gave us the example of the obedience of faith.

There is no place in the scriptures that records Abraham as believing "all by itself" because Abraham obeyed God wherever he went, and received this testimony from God Himself...

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5

Yet you claim Abraham only believed all by itself, without the act of obedience.

JLB

 

[llama]

Let's agree to disagree, like I said we are entitled to our views, beiefs, and our interpretation of the bible, doesn't mean they are right, I gave you my view, that is all I can do o/

 

[Obadiah]

I will remind everyone that all of our forums have rules and many such as this one have specific guidelines. The specific guidelines for this forum are posted below and can also be found here. Please read and follow them, especially the one concerning backing posts with referenced scripture. This means an actual chapter and verse(s), not just an entire chapter or entire book. This seems to be the area most people have a hard time following. Posts also must state the member's understanding of how that specific scripture applies to the subject at hand. This will also help us to stay on topic.

Guidelines for the Apologetics and Theology Forum:

"Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Bible. Apologetics goes hand in hand with theology as it is the branch of Christian theology which attempts to give a rational defense of the Christian faith. That makes the Apologetics and Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions.

With this in mind, the following guidelines should be followed.

• Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
• Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies.
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[Drew]

Let's agree to disagree, like I said we are entitled to our views, beiefs, and our interpretation of the bible, doesn't mean they are right, I gave you my view, that is all I can do o/

Well, of course neither of us is obligated to debate the matter. But, I politely suggest that you really do not have an argument to make about Romans 2:6-7. Otherwise you would make it, I believe. It's OK to pick and choose what you want to discuss, but I notice widespread refusal on the part of many Christians to talk about Romans 2:6-7:

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: [Romans 2:6-7, KJV]

......and other texts as well such as this from Romans 8:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:12-13, NASB]

Like the text from Romans 2, this one also rather clearly establishes that how we live is connected to the receipt of eternal life.

I remind you of this statement:

Tragically, the author of the preceding statement is woefully ignorant of the Scriptures.

I would politely suggest that if you cannot explain why Paul wrote the simple sentences of Romans 2:6-7, you might just not be in a position to make such a statement. People do not generally write things they do not believe, or that are only hypothetically true.

For my part, I take Romans 2:6-7 at face value and have a proposal about how to make it work with all that other stuff in the Scriptures. You do not know me, of course, but if we interact further, you may be surprised that we are closer than you think. For starters, with very slight qualification, I would clearly state that I do not believe we can claim credit for any of the good works that enable us to pass the Romans 2:6-7 judgment.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith all by itself is dead.
James 2:17

The faith that justifies won't be alone:
"The only thing that counts (towards justification--see context) is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

If one's 'faith' does not find expression in love then that person hasn't been declared righteous (MADE righteous) by faith all by itself in the first place:
"the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous...
"anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."
(1 John 3:7,10 NASB)

IOW, righteous behavior SHOWS you to to have the righteousness of Christ. That behavior doesn't MAKE you righteous in God's sight. It SHOWS you to be righteous.

The so-called 'faith' of demons can't do that. That 'kind' of faith does not justify (make one righteous). That's why it does nothing. It can't produce the evidence of life change required on the Day of Wrath to validate that person as having accepted Christ's righteousness, and therefore, eligible to enter into the kingdom.

We are first made righteous (justified) by our faith in the forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ, then we show that we have that righteousness when we do righteous work. We are not made righteous when we do righteous work. That is the very definition of the works gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, there can be justified people in Hell?

No.

No life of righteousness after being justified (that is, after being made righteous) means one has lost the justification through faith in the forgiveness of sins they once received. That's why they're not living a life of righteousness now and going to hell.

They lost that forgiveness of sins that they once had--their justification--through contempt and/or neglect of that gift, like the servant who lost the free gift of forgiveness of his debt in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB. That contempt and/or neglect amounts to a loss of faith in the forgiveness one has received. No faith means no forgiveness. No forgiveness means no declaration of righteousness. No righteousness means no life of holy living. No life of holy living means....hell.

 

[JLB]

IOW, righteous behavior SHOWS you to to have the righteousness of Christ. That behavior doesn't MAKE you righteous in God's sight. It SHOWS you to be righteous.

Not talking about righteous works, or righteous behavior or works of the law or working to earn wages.

It's by obedience to the Gospel [repent and believe] a person is saved, it's by continuing to obey the Gospel [repent and believe] that a person continues to be saved.

Confessing Jesus as Lord, is how we express that we have turned to God and recognized and believe that He is Lord.

From that point forward, if you have confessed Jesus as Lord, but later on in life, you turn back from serving Him, to serve sin and Satan, then you no longer believe the Gospel command repent, because you no longer obey the Gospel command repent.

In other words Jesus is no longer your Lord, because you have gone back to serving Satan.

The scriptures are clear in this matter... You master is the one you obey.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The ONLY thing that leads to righteousness is obedience.

Believe in the biblical sense means obey, commit, trust.

Unbelief = Disobedience

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein *, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

When the bible says Abraham believed God... it is crystal clear that Abraham obeyed God.

As it is written... By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Setting the example for all of us who would come after him, for the obedience of faith...

We can no more disconnect obedience from believing any more than we can disconnect obedience from faith.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

No.

No life of righteousness after being justified (that is, after being made righteous) means one has lost the justification through faith in the forgiveness of sins they once received. That's why they're not living a life of righteousness now and going to hell.

They lost that forgiveness of sins that they once had--their justification--through contempt and/or neglect of that gift, like the servant who lost the free gift of forgiveness of his debt in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB. That contempt and/or neglect amounts to a loss of faith in the forgiveness one has received. No faith means no forgiveness. No forgiveness means no declaration of righteousness. No righteousness means no life of holy living. No life of holy living means....hell.

I agree. I misunderstood you. I thought your position was we can't lose justification.

 

[dadof10]

No.

No life of righteousness after being justified (that is, after being made righteous) means one has lost the justification through faith in the forgiveness of sins they once received. That's why they're not living a life of righteousness now and going to hell.

They lost that forgiveness of sins that they once had--their justification--through contempt and/or neglect of that gift, like the servant who lost the free gift of forgiveness of his debt in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB. That contempt and/or neglect amounts to a loss of faith in the forgiveness one has received. No faith means no forgiveness. No forgiveness means no declaration of righteousness. No righteousness means no life of holy living. No life of holy living means....hell.

I only had a few minutes to respond last time. Do you think it's possible to get righteousness back through repentance and forgivness? This is my point with Abraham's justifications. He was justified in Gen. 12, somehow lost it, then regained it in Gen. 15. Do you think that is possible?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's by obedience to the Gospel [repent and believe] a person is saved

We're talking about justification. You aren't addressing the argument.
What about justification?

Justification occurs when a person believes in their heart...
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)