According to Jesus...

[jasoncran]

so paul did try to save himself. and the lord used that to get to rome eventually.

He did not try to kill his enemy, did he?

uh, he know what would happen, did he just let them come get him, uh no. romans werent know for being very soft , now were they.


in his effort to save his hide, most likely by his actions(which were proper) it can be most reasonable imho that some of his enemies may have died or been hunted for plotting to kill a roman citizen. can i be 100 % sure ,no, but paul was a citizen and he had rights that he used to appeal to caeaser.

 

[shad]

in his effort to save his hide, most likely by his actions(which were proper) it can be most reasonable imho that some of his enemies may have died or been hunted for plotting to kill a roman citizen. can i be 100 % sure ,no, but paul was a citizen and he had rights that he used to appeal to caeaser.

What is your point? Paul did not kill nor did he harm anyone, he only escaped.

 

[jasoncran]

in his effort to save his hide, most likely by his actions(which were proper) it can be most reasonable imho that some of his enemies may have died or been hunted for plotting to kill a roman citizen. can i be 100 % sure ,no, but paul was a citizen and he had rights that he used to appeal to caeaser.

What is your point? Paul did not kill nor did he harm anyone, he only escaped.

by his escape his actions caused deaths of his enemies.
please shad, are you so unaware of the roman army and what they do? they didnt have blunt blades then, only spears and swords and shields, they did have a blunt stick for training but even that often broke ribs if one wasnt careful. i googled the roman army and at a glance never saw any reference to the modern idea of non-lethal force.
so its ok for someone else defend you ,but not you. odd

jesus never said that we should call on the heathen to kill the enemy for us,only that we shouldnt render evil for evil.



so if pay someone to take out my enemy that's ok?or call the law thats ok, but not the military, really strange logic.

we cant be a cop in your view nor a soldier but we can reap the benefits of thier deaths and efforts. more odd.

 

[watchman F]

Certainly you do not believe that someone who taught so many lies could be in a true relationship with God, do ya?

You serious? If I disagree with one of your false doctrines, like sola scriptura, that makes you a liar and you have no relationship with God???

What a hoot... Have you considered that maybe Augustine also lied about the contents of your Bible, since he was present at the Councils where the Church in the West set the canon of the Scriptures... :gah

My bible???? Are you not a christian? Your catholic therefore you believe Augustine's lies?

 

[Guest]

Jesus the 'pacifist'....

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
(Mat 10:34-36 KJV)


And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
(Rev 19:11-15 KJV)


(Rev 17:14 KJV) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

 

[jasoncran]

[quote="watchman F":2uuahzbb]

Certainly you do not believe that someone who taught so many lies could be in a true relationship with God, do ya?

You serious? If I disagree with one of your false doctrines, like sola scriptura, that makes you a liar and you have no relationship with God???

What a hoot... Have you considered that maybe Augustine also lied about the contents of your Bible, since he was present at the Councils where the Church in the West set the canon of the Scriptures... :gah

My bible???? Are you not a christian? Your catholic therefore you believe Augustine's lies?[/quote:2uuahzbb]
the bible was put together by agustine. that was francis' point! if you say that he is a liar then what book is truly supposed to be there in that bible of yours.

i have alot of problems with the rcc doctrine, but we cant throw away all of those saints.

some are godly, would say the same of mother teresa?

 

[Guest]

Yes, and what happened then? Jesus said to him "if you live by the sword, you die by the sword." That's the only time any disciple used a weapon and he was rebuked by Jesus for doing it.

please DONT waste your time defending your LIE chap
YOU SAID that the disciples WERE PACIFISTS and that was an outright LIE!
Dont play this Red Herring game to dodge what you SAID and that it was WRONG !

What am I ignoring?

READ my posts again....its there, gent....

You cannot find any account where a disciple tried to defend himself even though they were always surrounded by enemies who were trying to persecute them.

Yeah....we do...Peter....who VERY CLEARLY tried to defend Jesus...
So youre WRONG yet again.

Ok, my claim was premature. After Jesus died, no one made this kind of mistake.

Sorry gent but Jesus was not yet dead when Peter used the sword and proved that he WASNT a pacifist as YOU FALSELY claimed !

 

[jasoncran]

all the lord said is to peter is put away thy sword, for my time is come.

that do me says the he was to stop the attack and scabbard his sword, in my military term cease and desist!

 

[Guest]

You should know that neighbor means any people. It does not have to be an actual neighbor.

Uh....duh.....who even remotely suggested otherwise ?

You should start talking like a bible-reading Christian.

You mean like when John used the word 'vipers' when talking to some ?

It is becoming ridiculous to respond to your posts.

What ridiculous is seeing the absurd twists and perversions pulled by some of you on this forum.
Its gets more and more nauseating the more I come here.
If it were up to me heresies would be forbidden.

 

[Guest]

What is your point? Paul did not kill nor did he harm anyone, he only escaped.

Peter DID harm someone, however....years after being taught by Jesus.
Guess the Lords teachings didnt rub off.
Maybe Peter heard this one too many times ...

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

 

[shad]

by his escape his actions caused deaths of his enemies.

This is stupid. Paul did not kill anyone. EVIL-DOERS killed his enemies. It's not his responsibility to make sure the ungodly behave themselves.

so if pay someone to take out my enemy that's ok?or call the law thats ok, but not the military, really strange logic.

You are going back to being nit-picky. Why do you try so hard to twist the Bible around?

we cant be a cop in your view nor a soldier but we can reap the benefits of their deaths and efforts. more odd.

Jesus says to let the dead bury their own dead. You should start accommodating Jesus' commandments instead of your own woldly desires. Think about it.

 

[Guest]

Jesus the "pacifist"

And having made a scourge out of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and He poured out the coins of the moneychangers, and He overturned the tables.
(Joh 2:15 EMTV)

Main Entry: pac·i·fism
Pronunciation: \?pa-s?-?fi-z?m\
Function: noun
Etymology: French pacifisme, from pacifique pacific
Date: 1902

1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance

 

[Guest]

You are going back to being nit-picky. Why do you try so hard to twist the Bible around?

Jesus says to let the dead bury their own dead. You should start accommodating Jesus' commandments instead of your own woldly desires. Think about it.

I agree...now where is my check ?
Or did you CONTEXT youre way out of paying up ?

Wm tipton,

"Love your enemy" is not a difficult passage. You are making it out to be complicated. You don't love your enemy by killing them. Too many churches are making the Bible messages so complicated to justify their sinful practices. And the military practice is not the only one they teach.

As stated, chap, YOU arent accepting the CONTEXT Jesus spoke in and WHAT He was DEALING with.

How about I give you Jesus' CLEAR commandments and use the SAME illogic & poor method YOU use and we'll see if YOU obey Him or not....shall we ?
Now remember....if you DONT OBEY His CLEAR instruction (its also not a difficult passage, as you say) then you are accused by YOUR OWN WORDS !

(Mat 5:42 KJV) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

(Luk 6:30 KJV) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

There is NO exceptions offered by Jesus....NONE!
Im a man and Im ASKING you for $5000. I'll take it in payments if necessary.
(mods bear with me on this, please)

Now...are you going to stick with YOUR godless method of interpretatoin and PAY UP....or will you CONTEXT your way out of OBEYING Jesus Christs INSTRUCTIONS !

We both know the answer to that.
The SECOND you refuse to pay up you ADMIT that there is MORE to the story than these two CLEAR commandments.
And you also PROVE that you dont even buy into your OWN method of interpretation....what was it again ?
"You are making it out to be complicated. .... Too many churches are making the Bible messages so complicated to justify their sinful practices."

Care to dance some more ?

 

[shad]

all the lord said is to peter is put away thy sword, for my time is come.

First of all,are you implying that Jesus would have let Peter kill that man if the time was right? I dont think so.
Secondly, that is not all He said. He also said "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword."

that do me says the he was to stop the attack and scabbard his sword, in my military term cease and desist!

Jesus rebuked Peter for being violent. It is simple and clear, yet you are still twisting it.

 

[Guest]

Did Jesus teach pacifism?

My understanding of Jesus' teaching is this: Jesus advocated love and patience as opposed to hatred and revenge, but not a total pacifism that forbids even self-defense. In Luke 22:36, Jesus seemed to be advising the disciples to use self-defense when necessary, but nothing more. He didn't advocate violence as a way of doing things, for he said that two swords are enough for the eleven disciples1 and in Matthew 26:52 rebuked Peter for attempting to start a violent revolt. Self-defense isn't contradictory to Matthew 5:39, for that passage refers to a slap or insult, not a hard punch that would constitute an attack. Since most people are right-handed, striking someone on their right cheek would typically be done by slapping them with the back of one's hand. Seen in the context of Matthew 5:38-42, Jesus' point is that we shouldn't take revenge, not that we cannot defend ourselves.

In Matthew 10:34, Jesus was referring to the fact that his coming forces people to choose sides: either they will choose to do what's right and follow Christ, or they will choose to avoid persecution and reject him. The result is that even families will be divided, as those who reject Christ turn on those who accept him.2 Since Jesus would rather have everyone repent and turn to him,3 he was not advocating this conflict, nor was he happy about it; rather it came about as a result of people choosing to reject him.

Did Jesus practice what he taught?

Did Jesus violate his own teaching by talking back after he was struck instead of literally offering his other cheek? Again, Jesus' original teaching in Matthew 5 was against revenge, and he was not trying to get back at those who had arrested him in any way. He was not even insulting those who had arrested him. All he did was raise a valid question: why had he been struck, if he were telling the truth? There is a difference between submission and prostration. While Jesus submitted himself to the authorities and did not fight his arrest and crucifixion, he was not obliged to not challenge the authorities when they did something wrong, such as striking him for no good reason.

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_pacifist.html

...

 

[jasoncran]

This is stupid. Paul did not kill anyone. EVIL-DOERS killed his enemies. It's not his responsibility to make sure the ungodly behave themselves.but he called them into action, should we not tempt men to sin. i mean if i flirt with a girl and she thinks of me sexually , did my actions cause her to sin.yes, if you say no then what of that verse in romans 14 on us not being a stumbling block.

shad you need to learn how to argue better. honeslty drew is much more better at his defense of this stuff. i dont agrue well myself but i cant easly shred your case.
so then


You are going back to being nit-picky. Why do you try so hard to twist the Bible around?
you do that. you want it to be simple when the situation you are in demands much thinking.


Jesus says to let the dead bury their own dead. You should start accommodating Jesus' commandments instead of your own woldly desires. Think about it.[/quote][/quote]
please shad ,so we shouldnt care about the "dead". after all if you take it mean what you claim it to be, why then do we bury or concern ourselves with the law.dead men write those.

 

[jasoncran]

shad, i will allow that.

so when we benefit from men like me and those before me.(soldiers)
are we not benefiting thus living by the sword. we are living in a land taken by force! was it wrong yes. but we can vote that to a halt and should

but not all of our wars were wrong.

that verse you speak means that we shouldnt start the fight. not defend ourselves.

 

[Guest]

all the lord said is to peter is put away thy sword, for my time is come.

First of all,are you implying that Jesus would have let Peter kill that man if the time was right? I dont think so.
Secondly, that is not all He said. He also said "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword."

Im glad you tossed that one up there....I was waiting for someone to do it.
We arent LIVING BY the sword when we simply DEFEND the innocent, chap....apples and oranges.

Jesus' INTENT is nothing mystical there either....He is stating the OBVIOUS...those who LIVE BY the sword, such as a soldier, will likely DIE BY the sword....ie in combat.
Sinking in yet ?

[quote:3rlmqead]that do me says the he was to stop the attack and scabbard his sword, in my military term cease and desist!

[/quote:3rlmqead]Sorry but that doensnt line up with Jesus, aka the Lamb, being IN a war against EVIL...
Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, and elect, and faithful."

Jesus rebuked Peter for being violent. It is simple and clear, yet you are still twisting it.

The FACT is the YOU LIED when YOU SAID the disciples were PACIFISTS....THAT was the reason *I* brought that issue up.
That said there is quite enough to destroy this pacifism error all over the bible.
Jesus ISNT a pacifist....He is God and has a purpose....

 

[jasoncran]

i was statind that peter was told stop and stand down, not to toss his sword away.

 

[Guest]

God the 'pacifist'...

For they are spirits of demons performing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and guards his garments, lest he should walk naked and they should see his shame." And he gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
(Rev 16:14-16 EMTV)

Guess that shot that fallacy down.....