According to Jesus...

[Guest]

Luke 3:14 Likewise the soldiers also were asking him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages."

Jesus would have TOLD them to QUIT their jobs *IF* BEING a soldier was forbidden for Christians....He DIDNT.
What He tells them is not to INTIMIDATE....which the word indicate just that....

G1286
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diasei?
Thayer Definition:
1) to shake thoroughly
2) to make to tremble
3) to terrify
4) to agitate
5) to extort from one by intimidation money or other property
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1223 and G4579

....and not to accuse anyone and to be CONTENT with their WAGES !....these are SOLDIERS He's talking to

Given the context that Romans were occupying Israel at that time and clearly were a bit rough with the Jews given their treatment of Jesus and their inspiring fear, it is no wonder that Jesus tells these soldiers not to intimidate.
That DOESNT MEAN that they could not fight or defend if attacked.

 

[shad]

Wm tipton,

I know you are not interested in hearing what I have to say. I will just say this one time, Jesus and His disciples are pacifists throughout the New Testament. The military practice does not harmonize with this message of Jesus:

Luke 6:27-36 (King James Version)

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Take care.

 

[Guest]

The more I think about this the more Im realizing something.

Pacifist ought to have to have additional marriage vows so that the woman whom theyre marrying fully understands that if shes ever attacked that this guy will either run and cower in a corner somewhere...or he'll crack open a Coke and some chips and watch as if God is looking down on him smiling.

Im thinking something to the effect of....

"In sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, but if 2 guys come into to rape and torture you and the kids...sorry honey but youre on your own"

I mean, all kidding aside pacifists OWE this to a potential wife because in MOST cases the wife is going to LOOK TO the husband FOR protection.
When my wife is afraid of something her first instinctive response is to get behind me. My first instinctive response is to get between her and whatever the danger is.
Earlier this year we were 'assaulted' by a neighbors Pitbull.
The wife and I immediately assume the positions GOD has put into us...the husband willing to DIE for his wife if need be...and to do what it takes to protect her.

If Im some lame wimp of a man who cowers and lets myself be killed....are the bad guys done ? No..they arent. As soon as I am out of the way theyre going to rape and/or kill my wife in many cases and possibly even torture her.
MY job ISNT to just jump up and die so they can have her way with her.
MY job is to PROTECT HER EVEN IF my life is required in doing so.

Pacifists have an OBLIGATION to their potential mates to let them know that they will offer NO help, NO resistance and will NOT be making ANY move to try to protect her if it means using their fists, a gun or just a big scary stick.

 

[Guest]

Wm tipton,

I know you are not interested in hearing what I have to say. I will just say this one time, Jesus and His disciples are pacifists throughout the New Testament. The military practice does not harmonize with this message of Jesus:

Im sorry but now you are just flat out LYING, chap.
Peter lopped an ear with a sword....HARDLY a pacifist.

Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
(Joh 18:10 KJV)

Guess they passed over that fact in Pacifism 101, right ?

*IF* Peter WAS a pacifist, gent, Peter would NOT HAVE used that SWORD
Or what are you saying...that true pacifists dont kill or use the sword ONLY when someone else is standing there to hold them back and keep them from hacking off body parts of their enemy ?

Had Jesus not stopped him he'd likely have done far worse.
it was not Jesus' time to die and He certainly didnt come to teach anyone to go around hacking of body parts, but that does NOT SHOW that men arent to PROTECT their wives and families....sorry about your misuse of scripture.

Maybe your next try will be better.

 

[Guest]

Wm tipton,

I know you are not interested in hearing what I have to say. I will just say this one time, Jesus and His disciples are pacifists throughout the New Testament. The military practice does not harmonize with this message of Jesus:

Luke 6:27-36 (King James Version)

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Take care.

Additionally, youre ripping this passage ENTIRELY out of context.
This has NOTHING to do with a good, godly Christian man letting his wife be raped in the name of satanic pacifism.
Its about Jesus TEACHING the HARDHEARTED JEW to SOFTEN his heart and stop hating his neighbor.

I mean, they DID teach about the Good Samaritan in Pacifism class, right?

As per usual youve simply distorted the INTENT of the passage you quote because you clearly dont comprehend WHOM Jesus is talking to.

Sort of like Jesus telling them to NOT steal. I dont steal so there is no need for anyone to tell me not to.

Jesus is telling the HARDHEARTED to STOP BEING HARDHEARTED...those of us who ARENT dont need to be told to NOT BE hardhearted.
And if anyone IS hardhearted its a man who could sit back and play pious while his wife is being assaulted.

Learn some context some time....it may help you understand what IS being said and what ISNT

 

[shad]

Learn some context some time....it may help you understand what IS being said and what ISNT

Your reasoning is out of context with Jesus and His disciples actions and the NT. You are conveniently twisting it around to suit your desire.

You are ignoring many verses which Jesus and His disciples say. Jesus says His followers are not of this world. The governments are of this world and the military is a worldly institution. Jesus says let the dead bury their own dead.

 

[shad]

Wm tipton,

"Love your enemy" is not a difficult passage. You are making it out to be complicated. You don't love your enemy by killing them. Too many churches are making the Bible messages so complicated to justify their sinful practices. And the military practice is not the only one they teach.

 

[francisdesales]

Certainly you do not believe that someone who taught so many lies could be in a true relationship with God, do ya?

You serious? If I disagree with one of your false doctrines, like sola scriptura, that makes you a liar and you have no relationship with God???

What a hoot... Have you considered that maybe Augustine also lied about the contents of your Bible, since he was present at the Councils where the Church in the West set the canon of the Scriptures... :gah

 

[Guest]

Wm tipton,

"Love your enemy" is not a difficult passage. You are making it out to be complicated. You don't love your enemy by killing them. Too many churches are making the Bible messages so complicated to justify their sinful practices. And the military practice is not the only one they teach.

As stated, chap, YOU arent accepting the CONTEXT Jesus spoke in and WHAT He was DEALING with.

How about I give you Jesus' CLEAR commandments and use the SAME illogic & poor method YOU use and we'll see if YOU obey Him or not....shall we ?
Now remember....if you DONT OBEY His CLEAR instruction (its also not a difficult passage, as you say) then you are accused by YOUR OWN WORDS !

(Mat 5:42 KJV) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

(Luk 6:30 KJV) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

There is NO exceptions offered by Jesus....NONE!
Im a man and Im ASKING you for $5000. I'll take it in payments if necessary.
(mods bear with me on this, please)

Now...are you going to stick with YOUR godless method of interpretatoin and PAY UP....or will you CONTEXT your way out of OBEYING Jesus Christs INSTRUCTIONS !

We both know the answer to that.
The SECOND you refuse to pay up you ADMIT that there is MORE to the story than these two CLEAR commandments.
And you also PROVE that you dont even buy into your OWN method of interpretation....what was it again ?
"You are making it out to be complicated. .... Too many churches are making the Bible messages so complicated to justify their sinful practices."

Care to dance some more ?



The passage you quoted, as mine above, are to HARDHEARTED JEWS who HATED their neighbors.
They were selfish, self absorbed, vengeful and entirely godless overall.
THAT is the context from which Jesus speaks.
He was NOT telling husbands to sit back and smoke a cigarette while some lunatic dismembers their wives.

AGAIN...
*IF* being a soldier were sinful by default then Jesus should have TOLD soldiers to quit their day job!

The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
(Mat 8:8-13 KJV)

Huh.....no mention there to quit his day job and Jesus even HEALED this military mans servant !
Would have been a perfect point for Jesus to TELL the guy to stop being a soldier IF it were required !

 

[Guest]

Your reasoning is out of context with Jesus and His disciples actions and the NT. You are conveniently twisting it around to suit your desire.

Guy, youve already been busted for making lying claims that the disciples were pacifists....your views cant be trusted now as far as I can throw my chevy.

YOU SAID Jesus and his disciples were PACIFISTS 'through the NT'...THAT was an outright fabrication.
The NIGHT Jesus was taken Peter USED A SWORD to lop of a mans ear !

That you somehow MISSED that HUGE point in all your supposed studies shows us conclusively that any 'studies' youve partaken of CLEARLY ignore any detail you WANT to ignore.

Or is it your claim that you didnt KNOW that Peter WASNT a pacifist and DID hack a guys ear of?
*IF* that is the case then you certainly ARENT qualified to even be playing teacher here for us as you dont know even the most basic of facts from Gods word.

So which is it?
Did you not KNOW Peter WASNT a pacifist ..or...Did you PURPOSEFULLY omit that detail before ? Or


Either way it doesnt look good for your argument....not in the least.

You are ignoring many verses which Jesus and His disciples say.

Thats a laugh. I live in my bible, unlike some.
YOU are ignoring pretty much everything you wish to ignore, including the context from which He speaks AND what Hes dealing with.

Jesus says His followers are not of this world. The governments are of this world and the military is a worldly institution. Jesus says let the dead bury their own dead.

Sorry chap but Jesus' apostles show us that Gods SERVANTS DO weild the sword...

For he is God's servant to you for good. But if you do evil, fear; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's servant, an avenger for wrath to the one practicing evil.
(Rom 13:4 EMTV)

 

[Danus]

Sorry you guys are cracking me up at this point. .... burning people at the steak was a hobby of many in that day. I guess it's a good thing this is all on line and we don't all live in the same village

I feel guilty for not buying a ticket to this show.

Danus,

Your supporting the military makes you so insensitive to vicious crimes.

Shad, I really think you should consider a career writing for the Washington Post. You would be so great.

 

[jasoncran]

evidence, since now you bear false witness. crimes of what?
i want names, places and incindents.

You don't seem to be reading through or are you doing it on purpose? We were talking about Calvin's vicious crime of ordering to kill non-trinitarian. Let me ask you a question; do you not know the crimes committed by RCC's persecuting their opponents?

your taxes support the same.

You already addressed it and I replied. I say it again. Taxes are used for many things not just for the military. Please talk like an adult instead of nitpicking.

sorry, i assumed that you were talking about the military.

if we are to assume that entire rcc was evil, and yes a jew by genes(dad side) i well know who killed my peeps. having said that, and since we are ( i assume) going to condemn the entire faith of the rcc. then what of the bible, the early catholics put that together.

on that note. if we are to hate the idea of teachers, and so forth, who does one teach or communicate the doctrine in the bible? teaching, is also done by a lot action and some talking.


and furthermore, since you are non osas, if said wife finds that you have a habitual sin that you are being rebellious (pet sin) and you refuse to repent. does that effect your teachings?

 

[shad]

YOU SAID Jesus and his disciples were PACIFISTS 'through the NT'...THAT was an outright fabrication.
The NIGHT Jesus was taken Peter USED A SWORD to lop of a mans ear !

Yes, and what happened then? Jesus said to him "if you live by the sword, you die by the sword." That's the only time any disciple used a weapon and he was rebuked by Jesus for doing it.

That you somehow MISSED that HUGE point in all your supposed studies shows us conclusively that any 'studies' youve partaken of CLEARLY ignore any detail you WANT to ignore.

What am I ignoring? You cannot find any account where a disciple tried to defend himself even though they were always surrounded by enemies who were trying to persecute them.

Ok, my claim was premature. After Jesus died, no one made this kind of mistake.

 

[jasoncran]

hits buzzer, paul used the romans of the day to save his hide. they came in took him away. i'm relatively the jews who wanted him dead got wind and may have tried to get paul first and were well killed or maimed for the effort.

any effort to call the law so that you may live is self-defense!

 

[shad]

if we are to assume that entire rcc was evil, and yes a jew by genes(dad side) i well know who killed my peeps. having said that, and since we are ( i assume) going to condemn the entire faith of the rcc. then what of the bible, the early catholics put that together.

I was talking about John Calvin. Calvin was protestant. Why do you think Jesus says we know them by their fruit?
Think about it.

on that note. if we are to hate the idea of teachers, and so forth, who does one teach or communicate the doctrine in the bible? teaching, is also done by a lot action and some talking.

The basic teachings of the Bible is not so hard to understand. We dont need scholars to serve Jesus.

and furthermore, since you are non osas, if said wife finds that you have a habitual sin that you are being rebellious (pet sin) and you refuse to repent. does that effect your teachings?

Of course it does. The Holy Spirit will not help us to be powerful to witness for Him if we are hypocrites. We will not spread Jesus truthfully if we are hypocrites.

 

[shad]

hits buzzer, paul used the romans of the day to save his hide. they came in took him away. i'm relatively the jews who wanted him dead got wind and may have tried to get paul first and were well killed or maimed for the effort.

any effort to call the law so that you may live is self-defense!

What are saying???? Is English you second language?

 

[jasoncran]

what you have done is called poisoning the well. meaning that just because someone is evil or bad, means that all they have done said is false.

by that reasoning we shouldnt by fords cars or trucks. as you see henry ford was a racist and bigot. yet he did much for the american industry.

and when you have condemned the entire rcc church, be careful that you dont wind up singeing yourself

food for thought: a wise king wrote much of the bible's wisdom. when in his life did he write the book of ecclastiates? late in life, when his heart was turned away or early before the turning from god. by tradition in most scholars say late. perhaps some reasearch on that king will make you think of some things.

can you read the bible in hebrew and greek.?
so by your dismassal of the men like agustine and others, the very bible you have may be in err!

so how do you know that you have a good translation?

 

[jasoncran]

hits buzzer, paul used the romans of the day to save his hide. they came in took him away. i'm relatively SURE the jews who wanted him dead got wind and may have tried to get paul first and were well killed or maimed for the effort.

any effort to call the law so that you may live is self-defense!

What are saying???? Is English you second language?

paul in the book of acts had a nephew that told the roman centurion that jews were plotting to kill paul. paul heard of the plot directly from that boy and set him to the centurion, that night paul was sent to agrippa.
they came in by mass and took paul from the prison, and romans(from the verse) took weapons meaning that they thought that paul was going to get killed and they most likely had to stop some jews that got wind and wanted kill paul before the he was moved.

so paul did try to save himself. and the lord used that to get to rome eventually.

 

[shad]

This has NOTHING to do with a good, godly Christian man letting his wife be raped in the name of satanic pacifism.
Its about Jesus TEACHING the HARDHEARTED JEW to SOFTEN his heart and stop hating his neighbor.

You should know that neighbor means any people. It does not have to be an actual neighbor. You should start talking like a bible-reading Christian. It is becoming ridiculous to respond to your posts.

I am going to ignore your posts. I know how it went with the last thread you were in. It got locked. I will not let this thread be locked.

 

[shad]

so paul did try to save himself. and the lord used that to get to rome eventually.

He did not try to kill his enemy, did he?