Adam Was Not Deceived, But Eve Was...

[jasoncran]

No, you have it backwards. According to Genesis 1:28, it's a sin NOT to have children whether it's the year 1923 or 2013. Am I wrong.

Ahhh... I misread your previous post. My apologies.

I don't know about it being a sin to not have children... Certainly not all people are able to procreate, I'm not myself (although we have two kids via adoption). However, I do believe that it is the norm. In other words, unless there are extenuating reasons, I do believe that God still expects His people to marry and have children. Again, not always, but normative.

And, in a very practical sense, I see the wisdom in it. I've read a number of articles about how many problems the Chinese are lately dealing with due to their overwhelming suppression of people having more than one child...and most of the times selectively choosing boys over girls. There is now a growing generation of Chinese men who cannot find wives.

I quote a common rabbinical statement on marriage.

a rabbi must be married, and also a jew is more of a jew when he Is married

this is based on a myriad of statements in the torah and the psalms and also that verse.marriage in jews eyes meant kids would be planned.

 

[Guest]

I don't know about it being a sin to not have children... Certainly not all people are able to procreate,

I wasn't talking about people who are unable too. What if you can, but choose not too. Is that a sin? Does it go against God's will.

 

[jasoncran]

gah, while I thinks its good to have kids but not all should if they so choose not to. I know a few women who didn't marry and well the apostle is believed to never had a child.

 

[handy]

I don't know about it being a sin to not have children... Certainly not all people are able to procreate,

I wasn't talking about people who are unable too. What if you can, but choose not too. Is that a sin? Does it go against God's will.

No, with all the talk of free will, I think people seem to think that free will applies only to salvation. Truth is, there is a lot of liberty within the Christian walk and I believe that we are free to not marry or have children within marriage... I know the pastor of our church would disagree. He once said that he wouldn't marry a couple who deliberately planned to not have children. But, while I think we can see that the commandment to be fruitful and multiply has never been revoked in that it would be sinful to do so (much in the way it would be sin to sacrifice an animal as a sin offering)... certainly we are free to marry or not and/or have children...or not.

(I think we are a bit off topic... )

 

[Edward]

I've been told that I'm pretty romantic but you guys are making a good case that it wasn't out of love, lol.

a rabbi must be married, and also a jew is more of a jew when he Is married

That's interesting. Learn something new everyday. Nuns can't be married, but Rabbis have to be. What wildly different takes on one God. Personally, I like the Jewish take better! I miss being married. They were practically commanded to have children...Be fruitful and multiply... but then again, I suppose those words being spoken could have been merely putting the drive into mankind?

 

[reba]

I wasn't talking about people who are unable too. What if you can, but choose not too. Is that a sin? Does it go against God's will.

Maybe some folks know they would not be good parents... Some may have genetic reasons fro not having a child...Could be at some time she had medications that could cause defects... As with many things in life , like Handy said, what is right to one is not right to another. God is big enough to treat each of His differently as we do our own.

 

[farouk]

I don't know about it being a sin to not have children... Certainly not all people are able to procreate, I'm not myself (although we have two kids via adoption). However, I do believe that it is the norm. In other words, unless there are extenuating reasons, I do believe that God still expects His people to marry and have children. Again, not always, but normative.

@handy :

In any case, the matter of maintaining a 'name in Israel' through physically having children has more of an Old Testament emphasis rather than a New Testament one, with the church in the age of grace (even though 1 Corinthians 7 assumes normal relations between husband and wife).

(We don't have kids either; we were older when we married.) But it can be wonderful how in a local church situation, where Christians have their spiritual home, when they acquire 'family', older and younger people, among whom they can serve the Lord together.)

Blessings.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

I've been told that I'm pretty romantic but you guys are making a good case that it wasn't out of love, lol.

a rabbi must be married, and also a jew is more of a jew when he Is married

That's interesting. Learn something new everyday. Nuns can't be married, but Rabbis have to be. What wildly different takes on one God. Personally, I like the Jewish take better! I miss being married. They were practically commanded to have children...Be fruitful and multiply... but then again, I suppose those words being spoken could have been merely putting the drive into mankind?

the more you study Abraham and his nature and what he did do in practice the more you see that it lines with god wanted men to do.i was teaching the kids on Abraham and had to stop going into that depth. he is very interesting. his wedding to sarai was and is tradition. the chuppa! the celebration of his cultural influence is also still done and also mentioned by jesus.

 

[Edward]

his wedding to sarai was and is tradition. the chuppa! the celebration of his cultural influence is also still done and also mentioned by jesus.

I've noticed that in scripture. A lot of teaching seemed to be modeled after the traditional jewish wedding process. The Harpazo? I think that's what they call it.

Abraham was 100 years younger than Sarai? Seems like a lot until you realize that 100 years isn't really that much to people who lived to be up around 900 or so back then. I always felt as if there is supposed to be children, then they will come, if not, they will not. I think birth control is unnecessary, personally.

It's amazing that I didn't have kids before I did. But when I got married (well, got together with whom I did marry) she became pregnant very fast. The difference was amazing and fast compared to how I never used protection with any girl and yet, never got one pregnant. I've always wondered about that.

 

[jasoncran]

no, harpazo is the word for rapture in greek, its the chuppa and that is from the open tent Abraham and had and his willingness to talk with men and just be hospitable. both the muslims and jews(if they still teach it)had that nature to them. the jews more so. in muslim culture while its well a weird thing for us to think, they do have it. its common amongst soldiers to say that when they kicked down the door the muslims would have a look of confusion as they had meal and tea ready for them.

 

[handy]

Abraham was 100 years younger than Sarai? Seems like a lot until you realize that 100 years isn't really that much to people who lived to be up around 900 or so back then.

He was!?! Boy that's robbing the cradle...

(Or perhaps there's a misreading somewhere.... I think Genesis 17:17 shows us that Abraham was about 10 years older than Sarah. )

 

[jasoncran]

i didn't catch that, abram was ten years older. well that is still robbing the cradle.

 

[Edward]

Whoops, you're right handy. That's what I get for going from memory.

 

[CORE]

So, the commandment was imperfectly taught. Somewhere along the line (and a very short line it was) there was added to it, "neither shall you touch it". God never said nuthin 'bout touching.

First of all I appreciate your insight into this account overall...It has helped me in ways you could never know.

Now...to this "imperfect" teaching. Was Adam even capable of corrupting God's word before the fall? If so, then wouldn't Eve also be capable of corrupting God's word? If Adam somehow had a memory lapse when teaching Eve, isn't it possible that Eve herself botched the commandment in her own mind while being directly under the influence of Satan? Maybe she had a lapse of her own under the pressure...my point is, that by your logic, Eve could've easily have made the mistake herself.

For the record, I don't know what happened....I wasn't there and I wouldn't teach my kids that Adam taught Eve a wrong commandment...

When she saw that she could touch the fruit and not die, the rest seems to have fallen into place.

Again, I see how you can deduce this, but scripture says that "when the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it."

It does not say that she ate it because she touched it and didn't die....

Either way, there he was, watching the Serpent coaxing his wife to do exactly what God told him not to do...

...and if Adam told her not to even touch the fruit like you said....why was she there touching it?

If he made that rule himself, it was for a good reason....but like most women she just wouldn't listen....

 

[Destructus86]

On a side note...why did God punish the innocent snake (a creature He created) and not Satan who was responsible for the deception? Poor snake...

 

[Edward]

Let's stay on topic here and address the topic and not personalities. Insults to people only seek to be inflammatory and will not be tolerated.

 

[handy]

Was Adam even capable of corrupting God's word before the fall? If so, then wouldn't Eve also be capable of corrupting God's word? If Adam somehow had a memory lapse when teaching Eve, isn't it possible that Eve herself botched the commandment in her own mind while being directly under the influence of Satan? Maybe she had a lapse of her own under the pressure...my point is, that by your logic, Eve could've easily have made the mistake herself.

For the record, I don't know what happened....I wasn't there and I wouldn't teach my kids that Adam taught Eve a wrong commandment...

I'm not necessarily insisting that Adam corrupted God's word... just that the commandment was taught imperfectly. Either it was Adam or Eve who added "or touch it" to the commandment... but Adam was right there when Eve said that and did not correct her even though we know that he had the correct commandment from God. By not correcting her when she was clearly mistaking the commandment, he was teaching it "imperfectly".

Again, I see how you can deduce this, but scripture says that "when the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it."

It does not say that she ate it because she touched it and didn't die....

True enough.... one might almost say I was adding to what God says. However, I do think that we can interpret from the account of the Fall the dangers of adding to God's commandments...at least, I've always been struck at how Eve was so mixed up on what the commandment actually was and then how easily she was deceived into breaking it.

...and if Adam told her not to even touch the fruit like you said....why was she there touching it?

If he made that rule himself, it was for a good reason....but like most women she just wouldn't listen....

If Adam had good reason to tell Eve not to touch the fruit, then why did he just stand there, being totally undeceived and knowing that his wife was being tempted to do what would cause death...and not do anything about it?

Amazing what continued questions crop up out of this simple little "Sunday School story"....

 

[Edward]

Somehow, I get the impression that he wasn't there when she did it. It's a little doubtful to me that he'd satnd there and watch and not do something or say something.

 

[handy]

On a side note...why did God punish the innocent snake (a creature He created) and not Satan who was responsible for the deception? Poor snake...

Yeah, I've always wondered about this as well. Snakes are actually very cool creatures and tend to be helpful in keeping harmful rodent populations down and mainly just want to be left alone. Because of this story, many snakes are just killed for no reason at all....sad. But then, the whole of creation suffers because of the Fall, not just snakes.

As for why God does such things... I guess we'll have to be satisfied with the answer He gave Job when Job asked "why"... when we can lay the foundations of worlds and enclose seas with doors, cause the dawn to know it's place and bring rain to the land, then we can instruct God as to what He should have done.

 

[jasoncran]

why did God curse the earth for man's sin and after the flood allow man to eat animals?