Bible Study Adams Fall

[for_his_glory]

This is entirely an assumption you're making here and so you should be very careful about asserting it as hard fact." Quote from Tenchi

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Hi Josef could you please tag those who you are addressing as sometimes members do not keep up with a thread. When you tag them then it shows up in their alerts, Thanks.

Back to God clothing them with skins. In order to do that God would have had to kill the animal/animals He used spilling the blood as part of sacrificing the animal/animals as He made atonement through the spilled blood being shed to cover Adam and Eve's sin. Much like Christ Jesus who made atonement for our sin by the shedding of the blood as without the shedding of the blood there was no forgiveness for our sin, Hebrews 9:11-28.

 

[for_his_glory]

Their bodies died 900 years later. Your definition of their soul is different to the definition in the following:
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The word "soul" here is the same word translated "creature" in the following:
Genesis 1:24 (KJV): And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns, John 5:28-29.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 5:28-29; John 6:40.

The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7.

 

[for_his_glory]

What does it mean for a husband and wife to be "spiritually one" in God's eyes?



This is speaking of the union of all born-again people in Christ and the leveling and homogenizing effect of this union. Christ is the uniting and equalizing constant among all those who know and love him. This isn't quite the same thing as the "one flesh" circumstance of a husband and wife, though, right?



It's not an unreasonable assumption, but their hiding being a reflection of their shame at their nakedness isn't clearly indicated in the account, or in any commentary on the event in other parts of Scripture. What the account does point out as a motive for Adam's hiding was fear, not shame. Why do you suppose the account highlights Adam's fear rather than shame?



Well, again, this is answering "why?" with a what. What Adam and Eve did was allow themselves to be tempted by the serpent, choosing to disobey the explicit, direct command of their Creator. But describing this doesn't explain why they did these things. Were Adam and Eve entirely incapable of resisting the temptation of the serpent? Was it inevitable that Adam and Eve would yield to its invitation to sin? If so, how do we know this and are they then responsible for partaking of the Forbidden Fruit? If Adam and Eve could have resisted the seduction of the serpent, why didn't they? Does the account of the Fall in Genesis give any explanation as to why the serpent's temptation was so effective? Adam and Eve weren't gullible children, nor were they at all deprived of food or comfort. Just the opposite, in fact. What's more, they met with God in the Garden. Why, then, did they succumb to the serpent's temptation? It seems to me that they should have been able to dismiss the serpent's temptation with ease.



But, again, this isn't indicated in the account at all. And nowhere else in Scripture (that I'm aware of, anyway) is it said that God clothing Adam and Eve in the skins of animals was a sacrifice for their sin. This is entirely an assumption you're making here and so you should be very careful about asserting it as hard fact.



Well, is this what the Bible indicates? Does it locate all sin in the devil? Or is the inclination to sin inherent in human nature, like scales are to fish, or wings are to birds? See James 1:14-16 and Romans 8:5-8. It seems to me that the devil simply provokes what is already present in human beings.

A husband and wife who are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit means they, like all of us are one in the Lord. We are all one body in Christ with He being the Spiritual head of the body, Colossians 1:18. The man is to be the Spiritual head of his family, Ephesians 5:23.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.


God did not make woman to walk behind the man or to be less equal to him, but was created as a helpmate to walk beside him. It's like how both complete each other.

I can't say for a fact that they were ashamed of being naked, but they did sew fig leaves together to cover their nakedness (shame), not because they were in fear of God seeing them as that happened before God called out to them. I would say we were all once ashamed of nakedness (sin) before the Lord as that is why we humbled ourselves before Him with a heart of repentance.


I already explained why they allowed themselves to be tempted as it was the lust of the eye that caused them to disobey God's command. I don't know any other way to explain that as they made their first freewill choice. Anyone is capable to resist temptations, but as we can see beginning with Adam and Eve we have all fallen short at times. We don't know the mind of others and why they would allow themselves to fall short. None of us can answer for why Adam and Eve feel to the temptation, especially when God had placed them in the garden and provided everything for them.

Let me ask you this question, why do you fall to the temptation to sin at times as we all do?

Since we are made in the image of God then none of us were born sinful for God's image has no sin nor did we come out of the womb with sin upon us. Sin is a personal choice of a person rather than something passed on from generation to generation as we are not held accountable for the sins of our fathers, but it is our responsibility to not repeat those sins, Ezekiel 18:20.


Satan is an occasional and indirect cause of all our sins insofar as this created spirit (fallen angel) induced the first man to sin insofar as because of Adam's sin, human nature has been impaired to such an extent that we are all inclined towards sinning. Satan does not cause anyone to sin as that is by our own choices we make.

It was Adam and Eve's choice to disobey God by allowing themselves to be deceived by Satan working through that serpent who comes to kill, steal and destroy those who are God's own, John 10:10; 1Peter 5:8

 

[for_his_glory]

Hey All,
I want to compliment you all for the civility being shown. Topics like this can break down into very mean spirited, verbal flame wars. You all are treating each other with respect. (The nerve of you all! Just kidding, Please continue treating each other with kindness and dignity.) OK, I will get off the soap box now.

Thank you for noticing this as we do try our best to get along in here and show each other that same love that God shows us, even if we disagree at times as we are all still learning.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again for_his_glory,

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.
Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns, John 5:28-29.

John 5:28–29 (KJV): 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This is similar to the following:
Daniel 12:2–3,13 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Perhaps the main difference between our views is that I consider that our consciousness ceases until Jesus raises our bodies when he returns. I believe that our consciousness is in our brain, and if oxygen and blood are denied to our brain then we cease to think and soon after our brain cannot be restored. Our consciousness is not preserved by "our Spirit" when we die.
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 146:2–4 (KJV): 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

John 11:11–14 (KJV): 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[for_his_glory]

Perhaps the main difference between our views is that I consider that our consciousness ceases until Jesus raises our bodies when he returns. I believe that our consciousness is in our brain, and if oxygen and blood are denied to our brain then we cease to think and soon after our brain cannot be restored. Our consciousness is not preserved by "our Spirit" when we die.

I totally agree with this as when we are physically dead there is no more thought or consciousness as we physically dead. The only thing that is preserved (goes back to God) is the very breath He breathed in us making is a living soul.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I have been taking about this topic in other threads. Is a phrase like "in the day" literal or figurative? If measured time started at the point of Adam's sin, and Adam only lived 930 years, then in context, then is it figurative?

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

How can spiritual death occur 70 years after physical death. This would mean Adam died while still considered perfect. That would be illogical.

Adam died a spiritual death that day. He was kicked out of the garden that day. Do you know what else is also true? God forgave Adam that day. (And Eve btw - I am not forgetting her.)

My original question still stands.

If Adam was innocent until he ate of the fruit, why was he punished for eating it?
He did not know what the concept of right and wrong meant until after he ate the fruit.
Do you have to understand what wrong is before you commit the sin.
If I tell a three year old, "Don't commit sin," they have no idea what I am talking about. Even if I add, "Because daddy (or mommy) said so," that only carries so much weight. Their innocence doesn't allow them to understand the concept of sin.
On the other side of the argument is I say to that three year old, "Don't lie to me. A three year old can understand this. By three year old they have lied. They may not fully understand the ramifications, but they get that it is a bad thing to do. They have suffered the consequences before.
Adam did not know, or fully understand the consequences of the sin he committed when he committed it.

Is sin, without awareness, still punishable? This is where people get hung up on the fairness of God.
L

 

[Josef]

I was distracted for a moment and hit post before I was finished. Let me finish here.

"Is sin, without awareness, still punishable? This is where people get hung up on the fairness of God." (Weird. I have never quoted myself.)

I would not punish a child so harshly if they were not aware of why what they did was wrong.
It feels like Adam and Eve were spiritually given the death penalty the day they committed a sin they could not fully understand. The only person with full understanding is God. As a believer, I know this is true. I wrestle with how it can be true. How can we resolve this? I do it this way.

God's ways are not our ways.
God is perfect and therefore His way is perfect.
His way is never unfair.
God's law is immediately punishable to the fullest extent, spiritual death.
This cannot be unfair.
I don't have to understand God's law to be punished by it.
This is where we get to the, "Because God said so" part of the argument.
The statement is true but hard to accept.
Which means for my statement to be true, the responsibility of the sin is counted as sin before the sin is committed ala Matthew.

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

But see now, Jesus is talking to men with understanding that Adam does not have. So does it apply to Adam's situation? Not seamlessly. You still need to apply the "Because God said so" stamp to the argument.
We are back to God's ways are not our ways.
(Did any of you believe this was going to be easy? This is not fun. It digs at a core belief.)

Let's go back and change what I wrote.
God is just, not fair, just.
Everything He does is just; and therefore justifiable.
God's punishment is justifiable because God is just.
It is justifiable for God to separate Himself from sin because God cannot do anything unjustly.
Adam sinned in his heart before he sinned physically or sensually, or with awareness, and it was still unjust.
This is where I believe I am wrong.
I believe I just got it.
Like a parent does not have to explain all of the ramifications that I would not understand, God does notih
av

 

[Josef]

I was distracted for a moment and hit post before I was finished. Let me finish here.

"Is sin, without awareness, still punishable? This is where people get hu gong up on the fairness of God." (Weird. I have never quoted myself.)

I would not punish a child so harshly if they were not aware of why what they did was wrong.
It feels like Adam and Eve were spiritually given the death penalty the day they committed a sin they could not fully understand. The only person with full understanding is God. As a believer, I know this is true. I wrestle with how it can be true. How can we resolve this? I do it this way.

God's ways are not our ways.
God is perfect and therefore His way is perfect.
His way is never unfair.
God's law is immediately punishable to the fullest extent, spiritual death.
This cannot be unfair.
I don't have to understand God's law to be punished by it.
This is where we get to the, "Because God said so" part of the argument.
The statement is true but hard to accept.
Which means for my statement to be true, the responsibility of the sin is counted as sin before the sin is committed ala Matthew.

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

But see now, Jesus is talking to men with understanding that Adam does not have.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Now even my posts are out of order. The one before this last one is where I left off.

I said I got it then wiped it out before I finished sharing it. I am having a rough Sunday. But I am not going to give this up. This is now a fight to the finish.

I left off saying, "I believe I just got it.
Like a parent does not have to explain all of the ramifications that I would not understand, God does notih" Quote from me

Let's turn the argument around and look at it from God's perspective.

God is love.
God loves us.
God cannot violate His Nature.
Therefore He cannot Sin which is a violation of His nature, love.
Man was created in God's image, which is love.
Man was given a quantifiable measure of our love for Him. (Do not eat the fruit of that tree.)
We did not have to know everything about the measure to keep the measure.
Therefore we did not have to know everything about the measure to violate the measure.
We violated our measure. (We ate of the tree.) We sinned.
We did not love God as much as God loves us.
Now God still loves us but cannot violate His nature and be associated with us while we are sinners.
There needs to be a way of atonement.
The way of atonement must come from God so it does not violate His nature.
Equally, the way of atonement must come from mankind so the price -or sentence - is completely paid.
The great I AM, the Messiah, Jesus is the solution fulfills both requirements.

Do you you know what has remained the same throughout the process?
That's right.
God is love.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
PS (I made it. I feel like I just ran a mental marathon. Thanks for putting up with my mistakes. I so hope someone can make sense of how old crazy person thinks. Some of that was my thought process at work. The last part I believe was given to me. I thought about it. I wrote it. But that was not the direction I was going with the post. I am not claiming prophecy or anything close to it. I know way better than that. I am just saying the thought to turn the argument around just came to me. Turned around the argument works and is defendable. See I told you Iwas crazy. This is probably too long to be a PS.)

 

[Tenchi]

I already explained why they allowed themselves to be tempted as it was the lust of the eye that caused them to disobey God's command. I don't know any other way to explain that as they made their first freewill choice. Anyone is capable to resist temptations, but as we can see beginning with Adam and Eve we have all fallen short at times. We don't know the mind of others and why they would allow themselves to fall short. None of us can answer for why Adam and Eve feel to the temptation, especially when God had placed them in the garden and provided everything for them.

Well, the account of the Fall actually tells us why they sinned:

Genesis 3:1-6
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”

Here, the serpent, the devil, sowed a seed of doubt in Eve's mind about God's command. Did she remember correctly what He'd said? Maybe she didn't understand the purpose of the command and wasn't looking at the choice to eat, or not eat, the Forbidden Fruit in the "right way." This is the same sort of tactic the devil uses today.

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden,
3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Eve replied that she understood God clearly, repeating His command to the serpent.

4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

The devil continued to press Eve on the idea that she'd not understood God's command properly. He insinuated that God was keeping the best from Eve, cutting her off from equality with Himself and in blindness to important knowledge.

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

Convinced by the devil's lies, desiring to be on an equal footing with God, seeing the fruit was "good for food" and a "delight to the eyes," Eve yielded to her selfishness and pride and violated God's command and then got her husband in on the sin, too. It is self-interest and pride that causes us all to disobey God. At the heart of every sin can be found the same thing: selfishness.

I consider that our consciousness ceases until Jesus raises our bodies when he returns. I believe that our consciousness is in our brain, and if oxygen and blood are denied to our brain then we cease to think and soon after our brain cannot be restored.

Luke 16:19-21
Matthew 17:1-3
Revelations 6:9-11
1 Thessalonians 4:14

I would urge you to read the work of Christian philosopher J.P. Moreland who specializes in the question of human consciousness and the soul. The idea that our brains and our souls are identical is irrational, as he demonstrates very well.

It feels like Adam and Eve were spiritually given the death penalty the day they committed a sin they could not fully understand.

Actually, Adam and Eve understood their sin better than anyone else ever has because they understood God better than any who have lived after the Fall. They weren't dull-witted children, or naive and oblivious ones; this isn't what their being "innocent" meant. They were adults, not children; they knew God directly, encountering Him in the cool of the day in Eden; they had been given both a clear command not to eat the Forbidden Fruit and an explanation as to why from God; all of their needs were met; they lived in beauty, comfort and the joy of unhindered communion with their Maker. None of us since Eden has had the same good cause to obey God that Adam and Eve had. But, Eve's innate and necessary self-interest was magnified by the devil's lies into sinful selfishness and pride. Could she have chosen other than she did? Absolutely, which is why her (and Adam's) disobedience was sinful. If Eve had been infantile, ignorant and naive - what people often mean by "innocent" - God could not have held her responsible for her disobedience, especially when the devil had deceived her. But what we know of Adam and Eve and their circumstance does not at all indicate such "innocence."

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I get what you are saying Tenchi. It makes me wonder. If eating it was the only way to sin, why not remove it from the garden. Even Adam could have figured out a way to remove the tree. That would not be a sin. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Tenchi,

I would urge you to read the work of Christian philosopher J.P. Moreland who specializes in the question of human consciousness and the soul. The idea that our brains and our souls are identical is irrational, as he demonstrates very well.

I do not accept that man has an immortal soul. Man dies and returns to the dust Genesis 3:19.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Tenchi]

I do not accept that man has an immortal soul. Man dies and returns to the dust Genesis 3:19.

Yes, I know. That's why I offered verses that demonstrate your belief here is in error.

Luke 16:19-21
Matthew 17:1-3
Revelations 6:9-11
1 Thessalonians 4:14

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, the account of the Fall actually tells us why they sinned:

Genesis 3:1-6
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”

Here, the serpent, the devil, sowed a seed of doubt in Eve's mind about God's command. Did she remember correctly what He'd said? Maybe she didn't understand the purpose of the command and wasn't looking at the choice to eat, or not eat, the Forbidden Fruit in the "right way." This is the same sort of tactic the devil uses today.

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden,
3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Eve replied that she understood God clearly, repeating His command to the serpent.

4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

The devil continued to press Eve on the idea that she'd not understood God's command properly. He insinuated that God was keeping the best from Eve, cutting her off from equality with Himself and in blindness to important knowledge.

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

Convinced by the devil's lies, desiring to be on an equal footing with God, seeing the fruit was "good for food" and a "delight to the eyes," Eve yielded to her selfishness and pride and violated God's command and then got her husband in on the sin, too. It is self-interest and pride that causes us all to disobey God. At the heart of every sin can be found the same thing: selfishness.

Pretty much as what I said about the lust of the eye as Satan seduced Eve with the lust of the eye when she gave into that temptation ignoring God's command.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hey All,
I have been taking about this topic in other threads. Is a phrase like "in the day" literal or figurative? If measured time started at the point of Adam's sin, and Adam only lived 930 years, then in context, then is it figurative?

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

How can spiritual death occur 70 years after physical death. This would mean Adam died while still considered perfect. That would be illogical.

Adam died a spiritual death that day. He was kicked out of the garden that day. Do you know what else is also true? God forgave Adam that day. (And Eve btw - I am not forgetting her.)

My original question still stands.

If Adam was innocent until he ate of the fruit, why was he punished for eating it?
He did not know what the concept of right and wrong meant until after he ate the fruit.
Do you have to understand what wrong is before you commit the sin.
If I tell a three year old, "Don't commit sin," they have no idea what I am talking about. Even if I add, "Because daddy (or mommy) said so," that only carries so much weight. Their innocence doesn't allow them to understand the concept of sin.
On the other side of the argument is I say to that three year old, "Don't lie to me. A three year old can understand this. By three year old they have lied. They may not fully understand the ramifications, but they get that it is a bad thing to do. They have suffered the consequences before.
Adam did not know, or fully understand the consequences of the sin he committed when he committed it.

Is sin, without awareness, still punishable? This is where people get hung up on the fairness of God.
L

We can also see this in a child that is told not to touch the hot stove or you will get burnt, but the child ignores the warning and touches it anyway getting burnt or telling someone not to do something, but they choose to do it anyway and later pays the consequences for disobeying the warning. Like Adam and Eve, a lesson learned the hard way as they had it made in the garden of Eden, but blew it being cast out of the garden.

 

[for_his_glory]

Greetings Tenchi,

I do not accept that man has an immortal soul. Man dies and returns to the dust Genesis 3:19.

Kind regards
Trevor

I agree. Why would we need to read the philosophy of man's carnal thoughts when we have the written word of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, I know. That's why I offered verses that demonstrate your belief here is in error.

Luke 16:19-21
Matthew 17:1-3
Revelations 6:9-11
1 Thessalonians 4:14

Never tell others they are in error as this is a violation of the ToS 1.1. Discuss the differences instead.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, I know. That's why I offered verses that demonstrate your belief here is in error.

Luke 16:19-21
Matthew 17:1-3
Revelations 6:9-11
1 Thessalonians 4:14

parable - a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson as told by Jesus in the Gospels

symbolic - serving as symbols/symbolism as in "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain". No one can literally see a soul. Symbolic meaning of motifs and designs.

This is what those verses you gave are as being a parable and only symbolic.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Tenchi,

Yes, I know. That's why I offered verses that demonstrate your belief here is in error.
Luke 16:19-21
Matthew 17:1-3
Revelations 6:9-11
1 Thessalonians 4:14

I will look at each of these in turn, but for_his_glory has responded in part to Luke 16:19-21:

parable - a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson as told by Jesus in the Gospels

I agree that it is a parable, but the difficult part is that seems to be based on the Pharisees' view of the afterlife. Nevertheless I do not accept that Jesus is endorsing their view.
Luke 16:19–20,35,29-31 (KJV): 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Even though it is a parable, I consider that it is important that Lazarus is specifically named, and then towards the end of the parable Jesus speaks of the resurrection of the dead. Instead of repenting after the resurrection of Lazarus, these Pharisees and Sadducees sought to kill both Lazarus and Jesus. Do immortal souls have a tongue, and could a few drops of water help to cool the tongue of an immortal soul.

Matthew 17:1–3 (KJV): 1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
I assume that you are claiming that the Apostles saw the immortal souls of Moses and Elijah. I consider that they saw the resurrected bodies of Moses and Elijah, and the whole scene is depicting what will happen when Jesus returns. No immortal souls here.

Revelation 6:9–11 (KJV): 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

symbolic - serving as symbols/symbolism as in "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain". No one can literally see a soul. Symbolic meaning of motifs and designs.

Yes, symbolic. Under the Law of Moses an animal was slain and its blood was poured out at the base of the Altar. Here the faithful were being slain by the Roman authorities, and Jesus is saying that they in effect offered their lives as a burnt sacrifice. Like the blood of Abel, it was crying out to God for vengeance, and this was soon forthcoming with the overthrow of the pagan Roman Power and its replacement by a corrupt Christian Roman power.

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (KJV): 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
This is speaking about the resurrection of the faithful dead, those that are asleep, at the return of Jesus. They will be raised first, then those that are alive will be joined with them and with Christ. No immortal souls here.

Kind regards
Trevor