Bible Study Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible

[Ruth’s promise]

A child that does not know right from wrong should not be accounted for anything.
Rom.9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated...before being born...

This is an entirely different subject here, so I'll just give you my belief briefly on this matter.

There are 3 heaven and earth ages.
We are in the second.
The first one:
We all were spiritual being,
Satan was a cherub, Ezek.28:14-19
Guarded the mercy seat.
Wanted ,and still to this day ,wants God's seat.
Satan rebelled drew 1/3 of God's children. Rev.12:4
Some fought against Satan, some followed Satan.
God could had destroyed His children then, but loved His children so much, a blood sacrifice was in order.
Thus, this flesh age.
Everyone will be born in the flesh, except Satan and some of his angels, even God partook in the flesh to shed His blood for remission of sins.
We having no knowledge of this, is given a chance.
We decide on whom we will follow.

I believe God hated Esau, because He fore knew him.
I believe this is how He chooses His elect..

No, I know what some say, it is not reincarnation.
We are only in the flesh once...Heb.9:27
Appointed unto men once to die.

Ok, I said it, do what you will to me, lol.

Heb 9:27 . It is appointed unto man to die once .
I’ve always seen this as meaning a spiritual death and not physical , given Jesus raising Lazerus from the dead I would think he’d have a bone to pick with Jesus when he died again. Lol . And Enoch who was and then wasn’t for God took him and Elisha taken up not having died a physical death at all . They being a picture of the rapture and all those who will be taken up in the rapture and also not experiencing a physical death .
Just my own take on it

 

[GodsGrace]

Heb 9:27 . It is appointed unto man to die once .
I’ve always seen this as meaning a spiritual death and not physical , given Jesus raising Lazerus from the dead I would think he’d have a bone to pick with Jesus when he died again. Lol . And Enoch who was and then wasn’t for God took him and Elisha taken up not having died a physical death at all . They being a picture of the rapture and all those who will be taken up in the rapture and also not experiencing a physical death .
Just my own take on it

Hi Ruth,
Welcome to the forum.

Your post is interesting but I see a flaw in it...
The problem is that we're BORN dead...we don't "die once".

So if we're born dead, Hebrews must surely mean that we die physically one time only,,,and then comes the judgement.
We don't die twice physically.

The persons you mentioned are exemptions...

What say you?

 

[GodsGrace]

Proverbs 3:5, 6 we are to trust in the Lord and allow Him to guide our path. We could never fully understand the ways of God.

God has total sovereign control over everything in heaven and earth as His will be done regardless of our freewill. Only God knows the future of everyone that is born. We exercise free will to either choose God or be separated from Him and we are held accountable for our actions. The fact is that God chooses us as we do not choose Him as He calls all to come to Him because He first loved us before we loved Him, 1 John 4:19; John 15:16. Not every one will answer His call or trust in Him.

Some are just wicked and estranged from the womb and will never come to the Lord.

I learned that you never say:
never
all
every

there are always exceptions.
But I get your point and I can't really argue it but just disagree with it.

If you're right, maybe we should stop having children?
Some of them might end up in hell.
I've been trying to tie Adam and Eve into this, but can't even do that.

 

[Ruth’s promise]

Hello thank you

Hi Ruth,
Welcome to the forum.

Your post is interesting but I see a flaw in it...
The problem is that we're BORN dead...we don't "die once".

So if we're born dead, Hebrews must surely mean that we die physically one time only,,,and then comes the judgement.
We don't die twice physically.

The persons you mentioned are exemptions...

What say you?

Hello , thank you for the welcome .
What I mean by spiritual death is dying to self, sin , the flesh, that opposes God, and then being born again, so that our spirit is reconciled to God thru Jesus’ sacrifice. Here’s just a few scriptures there are many more that to me conclude, if you are born again the death spoken of in heb 9:27 is past tense and not a physical death and now you are alive in Christ Jesus .
It doesn’t appear to me that Paul is speaking about the death of our human body in the earth but of our spiritual state in this world separated until reconciled .
King James Bible
Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Col 3:3
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God
Verse pageRomans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 7:6
Verse Concepts
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Colossians 3:5
Verse Concepts
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

 

[stovebolts]

You may have a point here that I never realized as in vs. 1, 2 David is addressing those who have the responsibility to judge fairly as the word congregation means rulers or judges in this verse, but accuses them of being unfair as even they speak righteousness, but in their hearts work wickedness like Saul did.

Vs. 3-5 these judges who work wickedness in their hearts are of evil from birth as they choose to go astray They are likened to snakes that refuse to hear the voice of charmers. In other words they refuse to hear the words of God.

It's getting late and I've been in this topic all day and my mind is a little fried right now and my body needs some sleep. Will pick this up tomorrow afternoon.

I hope you feel better soon. I'm on day 6 of being sick and day 2 of bed. Going to the Dr shortly.

Let's talk about Saul for a moment. He was a head taller than most, and people looked up to him because of his physical traits. That alone speaks volumes to his character.
We know he was tormented and David played music to sooth his soul. But we also know Saul was jealous of David because David was a better warrior with better songs written about him.

And then there is his cousin Shemia... They just don't seem like a mentally stable family in many ways, and I question if Saul was like that from birth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello thank you

Hello , thank you for the welcome .
What I mean by spiritual death is dying to self, sin , the flesh, that opposes God, and then being born again, so that our spirit is reconciled to God thru Jesus’ sacrifice. Here’s just a few scriptures there are many more that to me conclude, if you are born again the death spoken of in heb 9:27 is past tense and not a physical death and now you are alive in Christ Jesus .
It doesn’t appear to me that Paul is speaking about the death of our human body in the earth but of our spiritual state in this world separated until reconciled .
King James Bible
Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Col 3:3
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God
Verse pageRomans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 7:6
Verse Concepts
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Colossians 3:5
Verse Concepts
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

Very good quotes.
They, of course, are referring to our spiritual self...the spiritual part of our make-up. We are physical, spiritual, soul. This is the trichotomy of man. I'm sure you know this.

We are born spiritually dead and must become born again as Jesus said in John 3:3...in order for us to see the Kingdom of God.

We also must die to ourselves, as you have quoted above.
This means to live for God and not for our own passions.
We die to the power of our sin nature,,,and become alive to walk in the spirit with God.

We also must die physically..everyone.
This is what Hebrews is stating...

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

IOW, men die only one time,,,and after they die, they will be judged. We have to be dead in body to go to our judgement...we are not judged eternally in this life.

If you notice verse 28 says that Jesus will come a second time for those who eagerly await Him. The dead are awaiting Him because when He returns we will experience the resurrection of our dead bodies...just as Jesus did.

Hebrews 9:28
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

I think it's good to understand each verse because it helps us to understand the entire bible.

 

[for_his_glory]

Heb 9:27 . It is appointed unto man to die once .
I’ve always seen this as meaning a spiritual death and not physical , given Jesus raising Lazerus from the dead I would think he’d have a bone to pick with Jesus when he died again. Lol . And Enoch who was and then wasn’t for God took him and Elisha taken up not having died a physical death at all . They being a picture of the rapture and all those who will be taken up in the rapture and also not experiencing a physical death .
Just my own take on it

Hi Ruth's promise and welcome to CF

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Vs. 1 this physical body only dies once and after that we wait for judgment day to come.
Vs. 2 Because of God's grace and giving His only begotten Son Christ Jesus we need to accept Him as Lord and Savior before we physically die. If we reject Him then we will stand in God's judgement and our names will not be found in the lamb's book of life and will be cast into the lake of fire.

Enoch, Elijah and the rapture is another topic so I will not pursue that here.

 

[for_his_glory]

I learned that you never say:
never
all
every

there are always exceptions.
But I get your point and I can't really argue it but just disagree with it.

If you're right, maybe we should stop having children?
Some of them might end up in hell.
I've been trying to tie Adam and Eve into this, but can't even do that.

I really do not think we could ever know everything about God as some things will always remain a mystery to us because His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts, Isaiah 55:6-9.

I never had children which is a sad part of my life, but no one should ever stop having babies, but to train them even in the womb about Jesus like reading them Bible stories even before they are born.

Adam and Eve had Cain first and then Abel. They were both raised the same and both were the first to be born with a nature to sin like all of us. It's the same thing David said in Psalms 51:5 and alludes us to Psalms 58:3 where some are just wicked from the womb.

God gave commandments to Adam, much like He gave to Noah before the flood. You can find the Noahic laws online which are the same God gave to Adam. I can only speculate that Abel choose to not exercise the sin nature and kept the commands of God even though he was shaped in iniquity (sin nature), but Cain also shaped in iniquity choose to break God's commands in killing his brother because his offering wasn't pleasing to God and then paid the penalty for his sin against God.

I can't say for sure that Cain was wicked from the womb, but he did stray away from God's commands.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

I really do not think we could ever know everything about God as some things will always remain a mystery to us because His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts, Isaiah 55:6-9.

I never had children which is a sad part of my life, but no one should ever stop having babies, but to train them even in the womb about Jesus like reading them Bible stories even before they are born.

Adam and Eve had Cain first and then Abel. They were both raised the same and both were the first to be born with a nature to sin like all of us. It's the same thing David said in Psalms 51:5 and alludes us to Psalms 58:3 where some are just wicked from the womb.

God gave commandments to Adam, much like He gave to Noah before the flood. You can find the Noahic laws online which are the same God gave to Adam. I can only speculate that Abel choose to not exercise the sin nature and kept the commands of God even though he was shaped in iniquity (sin nature), but Cain also shaped in iniquity choose to break God's commands in killing his brother because his offering wasn't pleasing to God and then paid the penalty for his sin against God.

I can't say for sure that Cain was wicked from the womb, but he did stray away from God's commands.

Let me just ask you one question. If what I'm getting from you is the fact that babies are evil from the womb, then why does God give every single person the choice to repent? I was a big bully when I was a kid and I'm sure a lot of people probably gave up on me, but God never did and I repented of all of my sins and choose Christ to be my Savior.




Like you just stated, our ways are not our ways but the Lord's. Only He is the true judge and to say that babies can be judged for sins that they never committed,.. well with all due love and respect sis, I do find that to be ridiculous.

 

[GodsGrace]

I really do not think we could ever know everything about God as some things will always remain a mystery to us because His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts, Isaiah 55:6-9.

I never had children which is a sad part of my life, but no one should ever stop having babies, but to train them even in the womb about Jesus like reading them Bible stories even before they are born.

Adam and Eve had Cain first and then Abel. They were both raised the same and both were the first to be born with a nature to sin like all of us. It's the same thing David said in Psalms 51:5 and alludes us to Psalms 58:3 where some are just wicked from the womb.

God gave commandments to Adam, much like He gave to Noah before the flood. You can find the Noahic laws online which are the same God gave to Adam. I can only speculate that Abel choose to not exercise the sin nature and kept the commands of God even though he was shaped in iniquity (sin nature), but Cain also shaped in iniquity choose to break God's commands in killing his brother because his offering wasn't pleasing to God and then paid the penalty for his sin against God.

I can't say for sure that Cain was wicked from the womb, but he did stray away from God's commands.

I know about the Noahic laws.
At least used to.
They're very simple.

I don't know for_his_glory ...
Finally I'm stumped about something...
I still have to talk to a person about this...maybe two.
Will get back to you. Too busy this week...

 

[stovebolts]

With all due respect for_his_glory, I would appreciate it if you qualified your teaching as your understanding of scripture. I, nor many others do not interpret scripture the way you do.

For instance, Psalms 51 can be interpreted like this.
The Psalm is about David's grief over his sexual conduct with Bathsheba and the murdering of her Husband as well as the death of his child. All of these bad things occurred because his sexual drive over powered his noggin.

David had his own issues growing up, no family is perfect. Scripture tells us that sex is for procreation, and David understood this. But like so many men, his sexual desires were not for procreation, but rather his own sexual desires. In other words, having children wasn't the intent for having sex.

Psalms 51:4-5 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

What we see in Psalms 51:5 is a reflection on his childhood. His childhood is told in Psalms 69:8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.
Here is the rest of the story.

Nitzevet, Mother of David - The bold voice of silence

He was Israel’s mightiest warrior, revered by friend and foe; yet for the first 28 years of his life he was a lowly outcast . . . The secret story behind the mysterious circumstances of King David’s birth.

www.chabad.org

I believe Psalms 58:3 would follow suit with how Psalms 51:5 would be understood.

Below is another Psalm from David in which he says he was beautifully and wonderfully made.

Psalms 139:13-16 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Although David's family disowned him, he knew he understood that every human being has value and every human being has God's spark.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

With all due respect for_his_glory, I would appreciate it if you qualified your teaching as your understanding of scripture. I, nor many others do not interpret scripture the way you do.

For instance, Psalms 51 can be interpreted like this.
The Psalm is about David's grief over his sexual conduct with Bathsheba and the murdering of her Husband as well as the death of his child. All of these bad things occurred because his sexual drive over powered his noggin.

David had his own issues growing up, no family is perfect. Scripture tells us that sex is for procreation, and David understood this. But like so many men, his sexual desires were not for procreation, but rather his own sexual desires. In other words, having children wasn't the intent for having sex.

Psalms 51:4-5 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

What we see in Psalms 51:5 is a reflection on his childhood. His childhood is told in Psalms 69:8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.
Here is the rest of the story.

Nitzevet, Mother of David - The bold voice of silence

He was Israel’s mightiest warrior, revered by friend and foe; yet for the first 28 years of his life he was a lowly outcast . . . The secret story behind the mysterious circumstances of King David’s birth.

www.chabad.org

Below is another Psalm from David in which he says he was beautifully and wonderfully made.

Psalms 139:13-16 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Although David's family disowned him, he knew he understood that every human being has value and every human being has God's spark.

I don't really understand most of your post but I do agree with the first part you said. Not everybody interprets scripture the same way.

 

[for_his_glory]

I hope you feel better soon. I'm on day 6 of being sick and day 2 of bed. Going to the Dr shortly.

Let's talk about Saul for a moment. He was a head taller than most, and people looked up to him because of his physical traits. That alone speaks volumes to his character.
We know he was tormented and David played music to sooth his soul. But we also know Saul was jealous of David because David was a better warrior with better songs written about him.

And then there is his cousin Shemia... They just don't seem like a mentally stable family in many ways, and I question if Saul was like that from birth.

Saul, like all of us, was shapened in iniquity just as David was, Psalms 51:5. 1 Samuel 15 Saul had a heart for the Lord and that is why God chose him to be king over Israel and God sent Samuel to anointed him. The people did look up to him until he lost favor in the Lord going against God's instructions and it repented God that He made Saul king. Saul was very jealous over David and plotted many times to kill him, but instead in all his misery even in battle chose to take his own life.

Saul's father was Kish from the tribe of Benjamin. There really isn't a whole lot about his childhood. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, summarizing the Talmudic praise of Saul says:

He was extraordinarily upright as well as perfectly just. Nor was there anyone more pious than he; for when he ascended the throne he was as pure as a child, and had never committed sin. He was marvelously handsome; and the maidens who told him concerning Samuel talked so long with him that they might observe his beauty the more.

We read in 1 Samuel 16 how God chose David as king over Israel But the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. Then we read on how David was brought to Saul to comfort him by playing his harp and the evil spirit left him.

Anyway, I could go on and on about all of this, but the point being is that Saul even in his mothers womb was shapened in iniquity like David and all of us, but yet was a child of God from birth, unlike those who are wicked and estranged from the womb as they were also shapened in iniquity and after being born continued in iniquity. Saul's choice to disobey God came much later in his life and he could have repented to God instead of Samuel and God would have forgiven him.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Also let me just throw this out here. A baby who hits you or pulls your hair isn't committing any sins because it doesn't know right from wrong yet. That's why I have always questioned whether or not Jesus is truly perfect, or just sinless.

 

[stovebolts]

I don't really understand most of your post but I do agree with the first part you said. Not everybody interprets scripture the same way.

Basically what I'm saying is this. If you want to better understand what David means in Psalms 51:3, read the article I posted and it will make since. Both David and his Mother were outcast from the family.

David's Mother was separated from Jesse because of Ruth, David's grandmother. If you remember the story of Ruth, she was a Moabite. The law forbids the marriage of a Moabite man to a Jewish woman but it had been confused and Jesse thought his marriage to David's mother was against the law. David's Father decides to have sex with his maid servant and David's mother swapped places with her and bore David. What we see here is that David's Father thought he was having sex with a servant and the purpose was purely pleasure.

David's mother became pregnant with him, but David's Father Jesses thought she was sleeping around with another guy. As a result, both David and his mother were outcast. David writes about this in Psalm 69.

When David had sex with Bathsheba, it was for his sexual pleasure and he ended up murdering an innocent man trying to cover it up. David was in a pretty low place when he wrote Psalm 51.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Basically what I'm saying is this. If you want to better understand what David means in Psalms 51:3, read the article I posted and it will make since. Both David and his Mother were outcast from the family.

David's Mother was separated from Jesse because of Ruth, David's grandmother. If you remember the story of Ruth, she was a Moabite. The law forbids the marriage of a Moabite man to a Jewish woman but it had been confused and Jesse thought his marriage to David's mother was against the law. David's Father decides to have sex with his maid servant and David's mother swapped places with her and bore David. What we see here is that David's Father thought he was having sex with a servant and the purpose was purely pleasure.

David's mother became pregnant with him, but David's Father Jesses thought she was sleeping around with another guy. As a result, both David and his mother were outcast. David writes about this in Psalm 69.

When David had sex with Bathsheba, it was for his sexual pleasure and he ended up murdering an innocent man trying to cover it up. David was in a pretty low place when he wrote Psalm 51.

Okay,.. I get that now,.. but what does that story have anything to do with this? Or does it?

 

[stovebolts]

Saul, like all of us, was shapened in iniquity just as David was, Psalms 51:5.
...
Anyway, I could go on and on about all of this, but the point being is that Saul even in his mothers womb was shapened in iniquity like David and all of us, but yet was a child of God from birth, unlike those who are wicked and estranged from the womb as they were also shapened in iniquity and after being born continued in iniquity. Saul's choice to disobey God came much later in his life and he could have repented to God instead of Samuel and God would have forgiven him.

Please see my previous post on how I understand Psalm 51. The article I attached is very informative.

I bolded part of your last reply in the above quote. You seem to be saying, or at least I hear you hinting that some children are wicked prior to birth and continue through death. These children are destine to Hell.

Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[stovebolts]

Okay,.. I get that now,.. but what does that story have anything to do with this? Or does it?

Psalms 51:5 was used by for_his_glory to say we are all shapen in inequity. That is to say we are all sinners from before birth. I disagree with her interpretation. What I posted was my understanding of those passages.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Please see my previous post on how I understand Psalm 51. The article I attached is very informative.

I bolded part of your last reply in the above quote. You seem to be saying, or at least I hear you hinting that some children are wicked prior to birth and continue through death. These children are destine to Hell.

Am I understanding you correctly?

That's what I would like to know but I highly disagree with that because I do believe that everybody no matter how young or old you are has a chance to repent and ask Jesus into their heart. However, I don't believe God holds it against you if you don't know any better if you see post number 174.

 

[ezra]

we are all sinners from before birth

born with the sin nature maybe is how i see it BTW what does this have to do with Barbies going to hell