Agnostics and Atheists

[TZS]

I believe you stopped short in your definition of "gnostic". "gnostic" actually means: possessing knowledge, esp. esoteric knowledge of spiritual matters.

So, with a word that has the prefix of "a", this means "not" or "without". Therefore an agnostic is one who is "without knowledge of spiritual matters" as it relates to this conversation.

I would submit that posing theists as those with "beliefs in god/gods" and gnostics as those with "knowledge" is not being intellectually honest. I'm not saying you're doing this purposefully, but it does create a superiority hierarchy. I've never heard the word term "agnostic *anything*" being associated with an absolute knowledge of something. It's just been the lack there of.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I associated "agnostic" with absolute knowledge anywhere...I tend to think of "agnostic" as meaning uncertainty. I would say if you're 99% certain in your belief but 1% uncertain you're still an agnostic.

Ex. If I said "I'm a Christian and I'm extremely certain that my beliefs are right but I could be proven wrong", then I would be an agnostic theist (an agnostic Christian theist)...so the 2 and 3 categories cover a wide spectrum of people.

(sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to tell me)

An "agnostic" doesn't know if there is god, but doesn't believe it there is.
An "atheist" knows there isn't a god.
A "theist" believes there is a god.
&
A "Christian", believes in the True Living God. This is not "believes" as in uncertainty, but actually in being certain. We have faith, and as Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

I don't agree with your definition of atheist because I'm an atheist but I don't claim to know there isn't a god. I don't believe in any god but I think there's a chance I could be given evidence that there is a god (I think it's a slim chance), so I think that prefacing my atheism with "agnostic" makes it clear that I'm not one of those people who claims to know with absolute certainty that there is no god. None of the atheists I know claim to be certain that there is no god, they just lack a belief (they're a-theist or without-theism), so they're all also agnostics...I'm rambling but I hope you see what I mean!

 

[Mike]

4. Gnostic Atheist = Someone who claims to know that there is no god/gods (a faith position)

and then you said

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I associated "agnostic" with absolute knowledge anywhere...I tend to think of "agnostic" as meaning uncertainty. I would say if you're 99% certain in your belief but 1% uncertain you're still an agnostic.

If I witnessed you go into a store, I would know you went into a store. I wouldn't have to believe it. I would know it. So you say that in your list, 1 & 4 would know there is or isn't a God. It sounds to me like you are saying they have absolute knowledge of their respective beliefs, but I could be missing your point with my words.

I don't agree with your definition of atheist because I'm an atheist but I don't claim to know there isn't a god. I don't believe in any god but I think there's a chance I could be given evidence that there is a god (I think it's a slim chance), so I think that prefacing my atheism with "agnostic" makes it clear that I'm not one of those people who claims to know with absolute certainty that there is no god. None of the atheists I know claim to be certain that there is no god, they just lack a belief (they're a-theist or without-theism), so they're all also agnostics...I'm rambling but I hope you see what I mean!

An atheist (as I understand it) would deny the existence of God, while an agnostic would have varying convictions that the evidence doesn't support a god, so, while they don't know for certain that there is no god, they have come to not believe in one. Someone earlier stated that there are actually very few atheists, because it's difficult to feel that you are certain there is no god. Anything less than knowing for sure would make someone an agnostic. So, it's just my amateur opinion that you mislabel yourself as an atheist when you really are an agnostic.

I'll be willing to be talked out of my opinion, since from a Christian perspective, there's not much difference. It's too bad you won't be around more. I liked your posts and thought you indeed did add to the topic. What can I say about your blogs. Agnostics will likely eat them up, firm Christians will not be swayed but will lean on the Lord, but you might make an impact on a few sitting on the fence. And for that reason, I'll kindly pray that your blog never sees the light of day! :yes I wish you much success, but just no success in spreading untruth around.

 

[Ninjasaurus]

An atheist chimes in...

Agnosticism comes in two flavors. The first is "agnostic theism." An agnostic theist believes in god(s) but doesn't claim to know for sure if gods exist. The second is "agnostic atheism." An agnostic atheist is a person who does not believe in god(s), but doesn't claim to know for sure if they exist.

An atheist is a person who lacks belief in gods. No claims are made that they may or may not exist. It is "implicit" atheism. When babies are first born, they are technically atheists.

 

[TZS]

4. Gnostic Atheist = Someone who claims to know that there is no god/gods (a faith position)

and then you said

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I associated "agnostic" with absolute knowledge anywhere...I tend to think of "agnostic" as meaning uncertainty. I would say if you're 99% certain in your belief but 1% uncertain you're still an agnostic.

If I witnessed you go into a store, I would know you went into a store. I wouldn't have to believe it. I would know it. So you say that in your list, 1 & 4 would know there is or isn't a God. It sounds to me like you are saying they have absolute knowledge of their respective beliefs, but I could be missing your point with my words.

No you got it right, but I would say that they claim to have absolute knowledge. Obviously it's impossible to be a 4, because you can't prove with absolute certainty that something doesn't exist, but some people claim that they know there is no god. It is possible to be a 1, if you meet a god or if the existence of god were proven scientifically.

I don't agree with your definition of atheist because I'm an atheist but I don't claim to know there isn't a god. I don't believe in any god but I think there's a chance I could be given evidence that there is a god (I think it's a slim chance), so I think that prefacing my atheism with "agnostic" makes it clear that I'm not one of those people who claims to know with absolute certainty that there is no god. None of the atheists I know claim to be certain that there is no god, they just lack a belief (they're a-theist or without-theism), so they're all also agnostics...I'm rambling but I hope you see what I mean!

An atheist (as I understand it) would deny the existence of God, while an agnostic would have varying convictions that the evidence doesn't support a god, so, while they don't know for certain that there is no god, they have come to not believe in one. Someone earlier stated that there are actually very few atheists, because it's difficult to feel that you are certain there is no god. Anything less than knowing for sure would make someone an agnostic. So, it's just my amateur opinion that you mislabel yourself as an atheist when you really are an agnostic.

Your definition of agnostic would be how I define myself, but I'm an atheist. Like I said before, agnosticism deals with knowing something and theism/atheism deal with believing something. So while I don't believe that there's a god, I don't know for certain that I'm right.

It's frustrating to me that it's so hard for people to see that atheism isn't making any certain statements, it's just simply not believing. It's a response to a claim. If I asked you "do you believe in leprechauns?" and you said "no", you would be an a-lephrechaunist. But you couldn't know for sure that there are no leprechauns so you would be an agnostic a-leprechaunist. Do you see what I'm saying?

Atheists come in all stripes, but basically if you ask someone "do you believe in god" and they respond "no", then they're an atheist. If you ask someone "do you believe there is no god", they can answer "yes" or "I don't know" and still be an atheist.

Am I making myself any clearer? lol

I'll be willing to be talked out of my opinion, since from a Christian perspective, there's not much difference. It's too bad you won't be around more. I liked your posts and thought you indeed did add to the topic. What can I say about your blogs. Agnostics will likely eat them up, firm Christians will not be swayed but will lean on the Lord, but you might make an impact on a few sitting on the fence. And for that reason, I'll kindly pray that your blog never sees the light of day! :yes I wish you much success, but just no success in spreading untruth around.

Thanks for your kinda, sorta well-wishes lol...

 

[Free]

An atheist is a person who lacks belief in gods. No claims are made that they may or may not exist. It is "implicit" atheism.

It's frustrating to me that it's so hard for people to see that atheism isn't making any certain statements, it's just simply not believing.

That isn't always the case. There are those such as Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens and their followers that make positive truth claims that there is no God.

 

[logical bob]

There are those such as Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens and their followers that make positive truth claims that there is no God.

I'm not sure about everyone on your list, but you're mistaken about Dawkins. His view is that there is "almost certainly" no god. He's aware that it's extremely hard to prove beyond doubt that something doesn't exist.

 

[Free]

There are those such as Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens and their followers that make positive truth claims that there is no God.

I'm not sure about everyone on your list, but you're mistaken about Dawkins. His view is that there is "almost certainly" no god. He's aware that it's extremely hard to prove beyond doubt that something doesn't exist.

On the contrary, even the title of his book The God Delusion supports my point.

 

[logical bob]

I take it you haven't read The God Delusion, or you'd be aware that its central argument is in a chapter called "Why There Is Almost Certainly No God."