Bible Study alcohol and sin

[(Omega)]

Drinking alcohol is not a sin, however when we drink in excess and become inebriated, we are deceived thereby and thus it is a sin.

 

[(Omega)]

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.[/color

]

Drinking alcohol is not a sin, however when we drink in excess and become inebriated, we are deceived thereby and thus it is a sin.

 

[Skipdawg]

No there is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol. It is the abuse of it. Just as with everything else moderation is a must be it alcohol, water, food or what ever.

 

[Khristeeanos]

^ ^ ^ ^


That picture is so funny! :

 

[tim-from-pa]

No there is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol. It is the abuse of it. Just as with everything else moderation is a must be it alcohol, water, food or what ever.

I'll drink to that! :-D

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here: Here is an old post that saves me time. And for the many years since I gave my life to Christ, I have the same understanding. :wink:
__________________

Vicjr wrote:
John, I understand where you are coming from. I used to drink but have barely touched the stuff in the last 13 years. And I would NEVER recommend or condone a teen to do it as well. At that age, they really don't know their limits. That is what this is all about...knowing one's limits.

****
Hi Vicjr, (John here)
We are having a 15 year old seeing two different views! We have our convictions, but I hope that the kid listens to my advice & not yours! By the way, I lost a classmate in high school who was out with some other class mates while doing some drinking. He was the only one killed in the automobile accident. (accident?? perhaps)
****

Alcohol, in and of itself, is not a sin. Giving in to the temptation to drink excessively is the sin. It makes many people do things, stupid things. Things they wouldn't do if they were sober. Again, a person MUST KNOW THEIR LIMITS! Of course this does not apply to everyone. Some people do have addictive personalities and should abstain from drinking, or else it will become a habit, an addiction.

Alchol is not the sin. Jesus knew that or else He wouldn't have performed His first miracle. But before you say it wasn't really alcholic wine, lets look at the miracle itself.
Quote:
John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
John 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
John 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

****
Me again: Let me break in here & 'see' what comes into [my mind] that our Master is saying? Let me put some marks of emphasis for [my] impression? (it helps me!)
****

John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was [made wine], (John here: that seems clear?) and knew not whence it was: but the servants which drew the water knew; the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man [at the beginning doth set forth good wine];


and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse:

***
Me again: Vic, "IS WORSE" means what? aging, not as pure, starting to turn perhaps? Turn into what? It is WINE to begin with.
***

but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Jesus was commended for the quality of wine He produced. Again I ask, would He have done this knowing full well it was a sin?

***
Me again: No, you are correct with that assumption.
So the other thinking is flawed. It was PURE GRAPE WINE as Proverbs. 23:31 states!
***
He was commended by the wine steward himself. It must have been wine...they did not drink grape juice at weddings!

***
Me again: Says who? Where did you get that idea? Read the verse again & then ask yourself if the Christ that even refused the vinegar as He was dyeing, could be sinless creating a 'fermented' (caused by sin) Wine? By the way, Webster tells us that Vinegar is: a sour liquid obtained by fermentation (as of cider, wine, or malt) and used in cookery and pickling. Hay, that 'pickeling' word must have some suggested 'light', huh?
***

John, the person described in the Proverb verses you quoted has a problem and should not be drinking in the first place. The kind of person is a problem drinker. They will easily 'stumble' (no pun intended) into sin if left to their own devices. This person needs to heed the words of God in this passage.

***
Vic, we ALL have problems. We are to 'shun EVERY APPEARANCE OF EVIL'. Yet, still this is the secondary problem when we set 'danger' before any of the ones that we claim to love! Re/read the Prov. verse again as well as Christ miracle, and see if you can DETECT the word WINE before it is 'serpent'ised'?
***

The Bible clearly teaches of the dangers of drunkenness, but it doesn't condemn the drinking of wine. It is just like I said about marijuana; if it hinders your relationship with the Lord one bit then...don't do it!

Here is a good site on this subject.
http://www.crossroadscommunity.net/note ... 42702.html

Peace and God bless,
Vic

***
Please forum: Do not post back & tell me what Noah did right after leaving the Ark. Yes, Noah was human! Yet, think of it this way, he preached for 120 years that mankind would be destroyed by a flood, if they would not enter the Ark of safety! Then only eight souls did so.

After the flood receded & he left the Ark he planted a vineyard & got drunk. (Gen. 9:18-21 & what this led to!) Just a side thought, how would you feel if you had preached for 120 years, built an Ark that NO one to speak of entered? And then you have a lot of time to wonder about your 'responsibility'?? Were these lost ones because of my 'Lukewarm' love & failure? Personally, I can relate to Noah getting drunk! (even though I have not touched the stuff for 35+ years)

But, BOTTOM line: Does Christ contradict His Word? No. See 1 Cor. 14:32.

---John

 

[irishrain]

I am surprized one posted this one ?

1Tim 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

A little wine, not a gallon. :roll:

 

[John the Baptist]

I am surprized one posted this one ?

1Tim 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

A little wine, not a gallon. :roll:

********
Are you suggesting that this 'wine' was the fermented stuff?

 

[Imagican]

Absolutely. We know now days through intense study that wine offers many healthful benefits. Yes, wine. The fermented kind. And alcohol itself has been used in medicine for thousands of years.

As to Jesus and wine. You guys that support this 'grape juice' thing don't really believe that when Jesus turned water into wine that it was unfermented grape juice? It is obvious by the comment made concerning the 'best wine' being brought out last and that the wine was such that was being used to celebrate a wedding that it was the fermented sort.

There is NOTHING wrong with alcohol so long as one doesn't allow it to 'take away' from their walk. So long as it is not allowed to rule ones spirit so as to interfere with their love towards God and their fellow man, (and woman). This can become very difficult with many that are not able to control themselves when drinking. That many have a problem with alcohol doesn't make the alcohol the problem so much as the lack of control that many experience when they drink.

There is much offered in the Word AGAINST drunkenness. There is nothing that I am aware of that indicates drinking alcohol is wrong or a sin.

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and on the fermentation kick. How long do you think grape juice will 'keep' before it starts to ferment on it's own? Fermented wine when properly bottled or contained, will last much much longer than grape juice itself, especially in an environment as warm as that in which the Israelites occupied.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hay, if you base the Word of God as your theology, give me the verses to say that Christ created the fermented stuff. It does take the sin of decay to make what you say that the sinless one created. Your post has no thus sayeth the Word, just yours! Go back & read my post and learn something. :wink:

--John

 

[Khristeeanos]

Hay, if you base the Word of God as your theology, give me the verses to say that Christ created the fermented stuff. It does take the sin of decay to make what you say that the sinless one created. Your post has no thus sayeth the Word, just yours! Go back & read my post and learn something. :wink:

--John

So in other words, Christ can heal blind people, raise the dead, heal shriveled body parts, but can't create fermented wine? :-?


Besides, why did the Pharissees call Christ a drunkard unless he was drinking wine containing alcohol?

 

[Khristeeanos]

There is much offered in the Word AGAINST drunkenness. There is nothing that I am aware of that indicates drinking alcohol is wrong or a sin.

Just like there is a lot in the Word that speaks against sexual immorality and yet having sex isn't a sin if it is done according to God's Word. :D

 

[John the Baptist]

Hay, if you base the Word of God as your theology, give me the verses to say that Christ created the fermented stuff. It does take the sin of decay to make what you say that the sinless one created. Your post has no thus sayeth the Word, just yours! Go back & read my post and learn something. :wink:

--John

So in other words, Christ can heal blind people, raise the dead, heal shriveled body parts, but can't create fermented wine? :-?

****
Of course, Christ was sinless! PERFECT! 's'atan makes the stuff that at the last, bites like the serpent. (the verse was posted, did you read it?)
****

Besides, why did the Pharissees call Christ a drunkard unless he was drinking wine containing alcohol?

****
Are you kidding with me?? You believe the Pharisees?? Come on, get real!
****

 

[Khristeeanos]

****
Are you kidding with me?? You believe the Pharisees?? Come on, get real!
****

That is hardly a rebuttal to my post. Here is the text again:

• Luke 1:15
  ...for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

According to this passage, wine here means fermented drink.

Also, Jesus referenced John the Baptist's abstinance and had some further comments:

Luke 7:32-34
They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:
" 'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.' For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."

Here we see Jesus admit to drinking the fermented wine that John the Baptist didn't drink!

And the "Pharisees and experts in the law" (See verse 30) were accusing Jesus of being a drunkard!

How could they make a statement that Jesus was a drunkard unless they saw Him drinking fermented wine?


Jesus didn't deny drinking the wine.

 

[John the Baptist]

****
Are you kidding with me?? You believe the Pharisees?? Come on, get real!
****

That is hardly a rebuttal to my post. Here is the text again:

• Luke 1:15
  ...for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

According to this passage, wine here means fermented drink.

Also, Jesus referenced John the Baptist's abstinance and had some further comments:

Luke 7:32-34
They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:
" 'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.' For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."

Here we see Jesus admit to drinking the fermented wine that John the Baptist didn't drink!

And the "Pharisees and experts in the law" (See verse 30) were accusing Jesus of being a drunkard!

How could they make a statement that Jesus was a drunkard unless they saw Him drinking fermented wine?


Jesus didn't deny drinking the wine.

*****
You still are telling me to BELIEVE the Pharisees??

Just a simple question: Do you give the 'serpentised' stuff to a baby? If not, why not? Is there a age that you start going by? Where is the age given at in the Word?

And you do remember that Paul in inspiration call's it [sin] when one even did something that was not sin, if it caused the weak brother to sin?

And about using the Words of a DESOLATE folds leadership for wanting Truth, (Matthew 23:38) why not doing as did king Saul, and go to the witch of Endor as an example? : And that is where the 'fermented stuff' takes one, to the serpent who fostered it, himself. Proverbs 23:29-35 in the K.J.

No: You and I have a different understanding of Jesus & what it means to be Born Again. That does not mean that 'i' am not Born Again, just that I have not grown to the place that I can be 'Led' of the Holy Ghost to [even] set this 'evil' example before God's children. Let alone sin against God.

---John

 

[Imagican]

Hay, if you base the Word of God as your theology, give me the verses to say that Christ created the fermented stuff. It does take the sin of decay to make what you say that the sinless one created. Your post has no thus sayeth the Word, just yours! Go back & read my post and learn something. :wink:

--John

Come on John, by the man's comment alone is indication that the wine that Jesus produced from water was NOT simply 'grape juice'. How could there be different qualities of 'grape juice'. The fermentation and storage of wine is subject to MANY different circumstances that can lead to 'good wine' or 'not so good wine'. What could one do to alter 'grape juice'? It would either be 'grape juice' or 'grape juice'.

And WHO have you EVER heard of that celebrates with 'grape juice'?

And this is an interesting website:

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/chrdrink.html

I base not my beliefs on it, never read it before this morning, but it's interesting nevertheless.

Noah certainly didn't get 'drunk' on 'grape juice'. And note that when Paul was speaking to Timothy: 'have a little wine................ If it were 'grape juice' that Paul were referring to, why would he say a 'little'?

 

[John the Baptist]

Hay, if you base the Word of God as your theology, give me the verses to say that Christ created the fermented stuff. It does take the sin of decay to make what you say that the sinless one created. Your post has no thus sayeth the Word, just yours! Go back & read my post and learn something. :wink:

--John

Come on John, by the man's comment alone is indication that the wine that Jesus produced from water was NOT simply 'grape juice'. How could there be different qualities of 'grape juice'. The fermentation and storage of wine is subject to MANY different circumstances that can lead to 'good wine' or 'not so good wine'. What could one do to alter 'grape juice'? It would either be 'grape juice' or 'grape juice'.

And WHO have you EVER heard of that celebrates with 'grape juice'?

And this is an interesting website:

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/chrdrink.html

I base not my beliefs on it, never read it before this morning, but it's interesting nevertheless.

Noah certainly didn't get 'drunk' on 'grape juice'. And note that when Paul was speaking to Timothy: 'have a little wine................ If it were 'grape juice' that Paul were referring to, why would he say a 'little'?

******
There you go again, Noah was not sinning huh? :roll: What else did he do to free 'some' folks up to copy him by your theology?

And WINE. What in the world is it called before it ferments friend?
Read some 'Inspired' verses! Then tell me that Christ contradicts HIS WORD. (check it out in the last few verses of Inspiration!!) Or is Christ allowed to CHANGE His Word when He again tells us that He changes not?

No, again His WORDS are clear for any who are Born Again. Proverbs 23:31 calls it WINE when it is GOOD WINE!

Notice: Seeing that I cannot get you to tell the forum that you read the verses quoted.
Proverbs 23:31 "Look not upon the WINE when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup. (yet, you say that Christ can do that, and that He can violate His own INSPIRATION! Wow, some God?) At the [LAST] it biteth like a [SERPENT]. (you can read the rest of it if you 'desire'? are we mature enough to know when the first & last stages of time are present?)

I doubt that you understand the spiritual concept of 'wine', good & bad wine in scripture. What do you think makes the Revelation 17:1-5 ones called in Revelation 18:24 "For all nations have [drunk of the WINE of wrath of HER FORNICATION]"

They are ALL Spiritual santanic DRUNK! See Revelation 17:2-5!

Whatever?? :o

---John

 

[Imagican]

Exactly, what you refer to is true, 'spiritually drunk'. This is symbolic, not literal.

John, it is VERY possible for MANY to have a glass of 'alcoholic' wine with their meals and NOT get drunk. YES, there will be a slight 'effect' from the alcohol, but not so much that one becomes 'drunken'.

I am NOT advocating someone's becoming an alcoholic or becoming drunk. I am simply offering that Christ Himself drank wine on occasion and that there was NOTHING WRONG with this. So long as one places wine or other alcohol in it's proper perspective. MODERATION is the key. Abstenation for some no doubt. And I obviously shouldn't offer alcohol to one that has a problem with it, (cause that brother to stumble). But for someone to teach that which is NOT written in the Word simply because they 'personally' don't see the possibilities that there are those that can drink responsibly is unfair.

I've read the scripture that you offer. What I understand from my reading of it is that ALL that you refer to is warning not to let alcohol become a 'stumbling block'. I see reference to the negative effects of 'drunkenness'. I see warnings against 'drunkenness'. But I see and understand NOTHING that forbids the use of wine, simply warnings that we are not to let it get the best of us.

Everything that God created on this planet was/is good. It's the imaginations of our hearts that can turn something 'good' into something 'bad'. All things with thanksgiving remember?

And 'grape juice' is what is used to create wine. Grape juice is not wine. 'New' wine is obviously something that contained alcohol as well. As we read in Acts: the people accused the apostles of being 'drunk' with new wine. Hard to get drunk on 'grape juice'.

 

[cubedbee]

Do we really have the ability to not be alcholics?

Yes, we really do.

What distinguishes the alky from the social drinker?

What distinguishes a glutton from a social eater? The former allows a good and natural desire to consume them and control their life, allowing their physical pleasure to become an idol that replaces God. The latter uses things which God created for men’s pleasure in moderation, as God desires. Very huge enormous difference.

Is it will power or tolerance? When you are hooked, you are hooked.

No, if you are hooked, you can get off of it, you just need to get your priorities right and put God first. But, more importantly, you can easily drink without ever getting hooked. Literally billions of people have.

I'm not saying that taking that drink is necessarily a sin, just that our homes are being broken because of it and there is more to the Greek and Hebrew than automatically assuming everyone in the Bible imbibed on alcoholic wine.

It’s abundantly clear from context that the wine Jesus drank was alcoholic. No need to impose your Puritanical morals back on Jesus and pretend he didn’t drink.