Alcohol and the Christian

[Obadiah]

Obadiah,

Isa 1:22 (NIV) states, 'Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water'.

Daniel Wallace has written a thoughtful, but introductory, article on, 'The Bible and alcohol'.

Dr R A Baker's article, 'Wine in the ancient world', deals with some of the dilution in wine (could be up to 20:1) and some of the misinformation concerning this practice.

Oz

While I agree with them, neither Is 1:22 nor the articles you cited support the idea that in Biblical times wine was customarily diluted 3:1 with water. That's why I was asking Radagast where he got this info or what evidence he had of this as well as how 1Tim 5:23 or John 2:9 say this. It's something I haven't heard before although it does appear from the second article that some people do believer this. Unless maybe I just misunderstood what he was saying.

 

[OzSpen]

While I agree with them, neither Is 1:22 nor the articles you cited support the idea that in Biblical times wine was customarily diluted 3:1 with water. That's why I was asking Radagast where he got this info or what evidence he had of this as well as how 1Tim 5:23 or John 2:9 say this. It's something I haven't heard before although it does appear from the second article that some people do believer this. Unless maybe I just misunderstood what he was saying.

The 3:1 ratio was mentioned by someone in a previous post, but without documentation. All I can say is that Isa 1:22 (ESV) affirms wine was diluted with water. There is historical evidence back to Homer that that was happening, but the percentages varied.

 

[Obadiah]

The 3:1 ratio was mentioned by someone in a previous post, but without documentation. All I can say is that Isa 1:22 (ESV) affirms wine was diluted with water. There is historical evidence back to Homer that that was happening, but the percentages varied.

Yeah, I agree Is 1:22 does show it was done, otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned. But it doesn't paint it in a good light, rather as something bad! I was wondering if there was anything Biblical supporting an idea that it was supposed to be done that way according to God. And, I'm not real sure that's what Radagast meant anyway.

I do appreciate the articles you linked to. They pretty much confirm what I've found through my own studies as well as adding some as well.

 

[WIP]

When I read Isaiah 1 in context it appears that Isaiah was reprimanding them for diluting the wine, not praising them.

 

[Radagast]

I don't disagree with you. However, my wife and I have chosen to be teetotalers for practical reasons, not the least being the abuse of alcohol in our Aussie culture.

And good on you! My double-thumbs-up was meant as approval, even though I'm not following your lead.

 

[Radagast]

I'm curious where did you find this information on them diluting their wine with water? I haven't read this whole thread (and can't because I'm at work right now), so maybe it was talked about earlier? I don't see anything in 1Tim 5:23 or John 2:9 that says anything about diluting the wine with water. Biblical use of alcohol is a subject that comes up for me a lot, so I'd be interested in knowing where this information can be verified.

Well, I would read 1 Tim 5:23 as recommending replacing straight water by diluted wine -- hence "do not drink water" (μηκέτι ὑδροπότει) and "use a little wine" (οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ), which I'm taking to mean "a little wine mixed in." John MacArthur's Commentary on 1&2 Timothy gives a good explanation of the verse in context:

"In ancient times most people consumed wine, since it was the staple liquid to drink. The water was impure, and mixing the wine with water not only significantly diluted the alcohol content, but purified the water. A mixture of eight parts water to one part wine was common, so as to avoid any dissipating effect. Timothy was even reluctant to take the mixed wine, so as not to set an example that could cause someone to stumble. Thus, he was committed to abstinence, and Paul had to tell him, 'no longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments' (5:23). Drinking only water was contributing to his poor health."

Several books on Greek culture (which is relevant, because Palestine had been part of the Hellenistic world for 300 years) suggest a 3:1 ratio was common, at least for parties.

Personally, I would prefer to alternate glasses of straight water and glasses of straight wine, but that only works because of modern water purification methods, and because of gradual improvements in the taste of wine over the past 2000 years.

Rev 14:10 speaks of drinking undiluted wine as something unusual. This is echoed in classical Greek literature.

 

[OzSpen]

When I read Isaiah 1 in context it appears that Isaiah was reprimanding them for diluting the wine, not praising them.

WIP,

You are correct. There is fraudulent behaviour by those who are officials and this is described by two figures, 'Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water' (Isa 1:22 NIV).

This article, 'How wine was drunk in ancient times' states,

Many writings verify the fact that the ancients dealt with this dilemma by mixing their wine with water to PREVENT intoxication. Consider the following examples. In civilized Greek society, Homer (Odyssey IX, 208f) mentions a ratio of twenty parts water to one part wine. Hippocrates also considered “twenty parts of water to one part of the Thracian wine to be the proper beverage.” [ii] Pliny (Natural History XIV, vi, 54) mentions a ration of eight parts water to one part wine. Athenaeus’s The Learned Banquet, (around A.D. 200) writes in a play that their custom was to mix three parts water to one part wine. [iii]

In Greece it was “considered barbarous to drink wine that was not diluted with water.”[iv] Plutarch wrote (in Sumposiacs III, ix), “We call a mixture wine, though the larger of the component parts is water.” [v] A mixture of equal parts was considered strong drink. The ratio varied from place to place, but the practice of mixing water with wine was common. Athenaeus quoted Mnesitheus of Athens as saying, “in daily intercourse, to those who drink it moderately it gives good cheer; but if you overstep the bounds it brings violence. Mix it half and half and you get madness; unmixed—bodily collapse.”[vi]

In Jewish society wine was also mixed with water, and unmixed wine was considered a strong drink. Several Old Testament passages spoke of the difference between wine and strong drink (Deut. 14:26; 29:6). The priests were to avoid BOTH when they went into the tabernacle (Lev.10:8-9). The Talmud (oral traditions of the Jews from about 200 BC to AD 200) includes instructions concerning wine in several chapters. One section (Shabbath 77a) states that wine which does not carry at least 3 parts of water is not wine. It would be considered a strong drink. [vii]

Rabbis said that food unblessed was unclean. They taught that wine, unless mixed with water, could not be blessed. Some rabbis demanded three parts of water; some demanded ten parts water before they would bless it. While the standards varied somewhat, it does give us some insight into the common practice of mixing wine and water in the days of Christ. (This might help shed light on the miracle at the wedding of Cana.)

A passage from the uninspired apocryphal book of II Macc. 15:39 also sheds light on this practice among the Jews: “For as it is hurtful to drink wine or water alone; and as wine mingled with water is pleasant, and delighteth the taste: even so speech finely framed delighteth the ears of them that read the story. And here shall be an end.” This passage reveals the fact that they understood that drinking water alone (unmixed) was often harmful, and was thus MIXED it with wine. The mixing improved the taste of the (often stagnant) water AND removed the hurtful or harmful effects of unpurified water. This passage indicates to us the common Jewish custom of mixing water and wine and also includes two reasons for doing so.

So wine added to water was a common practice in Gentile and Jewish cultures, according to these traditions.

Oz

 

[Obadiah]

Well, I would read 1 Tim 5:23 as recommending replacing straight water by diluted wine -- hence "do not drink water" (μηκέτι ὑδροπότει) and "use a little wine" (οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ), which I'm taking to mean "a little wine mixed in." John MacArthur's Commentary on 1&2 Timothy gives a good explanation of the verse in context:

"In ancient times most people consumed wine, since it was the staple liquid to drink. The water was impure, and mixing the wine with water not only significantly diluted the alcohol content, but purified the water. A mixture of eight parts water to one part wine was common, so as to avoid any dissipating effect. Timothy was even reluctant to take the mixed wine, so as not to set an example that could cause someone to stumble. Thus, he was committed to abstinence, and Paul had to tell him, 'no longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments' (5:23). Drinking only water was contributing to his poor health."

Several books on Greek culture (which is relevant, because Palestine had been part of the Hellenistic world for 300 years) suggest a 3:1 ratio was common, at least for parties.

Personally, I would prefer to alternate glasses of straight water and glasses of straight wine, but that only works because of modern water purification methods, and because of gradual improvements in the taste of wine over the past 2000 years.

Rev 14:10 speaks of drinking undiluted wine as something unusual. This is echoed in classical Greek literature.

Thanks, I was wondering where you were getting that. I don't particularly see that in 1 Tim 5:23 without assuming something that's not actually written there. I understand what John MacArthur is saying but even though he is a personal friend from a long time ago, I still have to understand that there are other historians that dispute what he is saying about the custom of mixing wine with water. In Rev 4:10 I agree it does indicate that at some times wine may have been diluted with something... Water would be the logical thing I guess. But I don't see that as saying it was all that unusual to drink straight wine. I only see it as a statement that in this case it was not diluted with anything. And of course, in Rev 4:10 he's not talking about real wine as in 1 Tim 5:23. The wine if Rev is obviously symbolic.

Seems to me what we have here is kind of an unknown as to whether or how often wine was diluted with water in the Hebrew culture of the day. Some say that was never done, others seem to be saying it was done all the time, and others say it was done some of the time.

I think I would conclude that even though we don't seem to know for sure if or how often wine was diluted with water, it is still clear that wine was obviously alcoholic and that drinking it in whatever form was not condemned. If it were sinful to drink any small amount of alcohol at all as some claim, then there would be condemnation in scripture about it. But there seems to be none. I think in light of Paul's attitude toward sin in 1 Cor 5:6b (ESV) "Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?" that if alcohol consumption was sinful he not only wouldn't have suggested any use at all for Timothy, but somewhere in scripture we would have a clear condemnation of it. Therefore it seems to me that it's not the drinking of alcohol in itself that's sinful, it's the abuse of it that God is against.

 

[reba]

What's the point of a diet Pepsi when it is accompanied by potato chips and followed up with a rich dessert? I have seen this time and again.

Diet pepsi is an acquired taste .. One the fat chick never wants to have to acquire again

 

[WIP]

On that same note John 2:1-11 came to mind where Jesus turned the water into wine at the wedding feast in Cana.
"When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!” John 2:9-10 NKJV

I wonder if by "best wine" he is referring to undiluted wine.

 

[jasonc]

I will not look at the water plant the same again.just add yeast to the open cistern and let nature take its course.

 

[Radagast]

Thanks, I was wondering where you were getting that. I don't particularly see that in 1 Tim 5:23 without assuming something that's not actually written there.

It seems to me that that's what the Greek implies.

I still have to understand that there are other historians that dispute what he is saying about the custom of mixing wine with water.

Every book I've read agrees that wine was normally diluted. Only the ratios are debated. Which historians are you referring to?

In Rev 4:10 I agree it does indicate that at some times wine may have been diluted with something... Water would be the logical thing I guess. But I don't see that as saying it was all that unusual to drink straight wine.

To quote the Holman NT Commentary: "In the consummation now unfolding, it is poured full strength into the cup, literally 'mixed unmixed into the cup.' Usually wine was poured ('mixed') into a cup after being diluted with water. Here is wine poured without mixing. Today we might say, 'God's wrath is like forcing straight whiskey down someone's throat.'"

it is still clear that wine was obviously alcoholic and that drinking it in whatever form was not condemned.

... Therefore it seems to me that it's not the drinking of alcohol in itself that's sinful, it's the abuse of it that God is against.

Correct.

 

[Radagast]

I wonder if by "best wine" he is referring to undiluted wine.

I don't think so -- the "master of the feast" was supposed to personally control the dilution, so as to stop the feast from getting to rowdy. I think he's just pointing out that, being somewhat tipsy by this time, the guests will not be able to appreciate how good the wine is.

"'Master of the banquet' was a position of honor (Sirach 32:1-2); one of his primary duties was to regulate the distribution of wine to prevent excess that would (especially in a Jewish context) ruin the party. At least in Greek banquets, guests sometimes elected this person; at other times the host would select him or he would be chosen by lot. His role included presiding over the entertainment and controlling the level of dilution for the wine; thus some observers might have held him partly responsible for the host's running out of wine prematurely." -- Keener, IVP Bible Background Commentary

 

[Obadiah]

It seems to me that that's what the Greek implies.

OK, I'm just not seeing that at all. The Greek word for wine in 1 Tim 5:23 is oinos, which always refers to alcoholic wine. I can't find any reference or indication that it refers to a mixture of wine and something else unless that is spelled out in the text, which it is not spelled out in 1 Tim 5:23 or any of the context surrounding it. But even if he was referring to diluted wine, I don't think it really matters to the question of whether or not drinking alcohol in any form or amount is sin. This shows that either it is not sin or we would have to admit Paul was advocating sin in his advice to Timothy. I think we can all agree that Paul wasn't advocating sin! :yes

 

[Radagast]

The Greek word for wine in 1 Tim 5:23 is oinos, which always refers to alcoholic wine.

Correct. Alcoholic wine, but not necessarily undiluted wine (wine was not usually drunk undiluted). Indeed, in Rev 14:10, undiluted wine merits a special adjective.

I can't find any reference or indication that it refers to a mixture of wine and something else unless that is spelled out in the text

I take it that "use a little wine" (οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ χρῶ), which is used rather than "drink a little wine," refers to dilution, with the "a little" (ὀλίγῳ) suggesting a weak dilution.

I don't think it really matters to the question of whether or not drinking alcohol in any form or amount is sin

Drinking wine is not a sin. Drinking wine to excess and getting drunk is a sin.

I think we can all agree that Paul wasn't advocating sin!

Of course not. Neither was Jesus, when He made water into wine!