R7-12 in italics, unred typo in bold
R7-12 wrote:
Summarizing a large document such as the law in a concept such as love, does not negate the observance of everything in the document, so your point is moot.
That wasn’t even my point. Jesus was speaking. He’s the one who said the law could be summed up in “all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.†Can you come up with a law that isn‘t covered to God’s satisfaction? If you can, maybe it‘s because it’s not God‘s law but the laws added by the Sanhedrin.
R7-12 wrote: Right. It’s nothing new but that which we had from the beginning – the law of God.
The law of God was a set of ten written on 2 tablets of stone that Moses carried down the mountain, not the multitude of amendments that were added by Moses and the Sanhedrin afterwards. His law was not grievous but by the time Christ came it was down to stick picking stringency. God’s law was the spirit behind the set of rules which could be translated simply; Love God and love one another. Mic 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?
R7-12 wrote:Again what you have quoted supports the teaching that we are to live by the law and thereby fulfill it.
Actually they don’t say keeping the law fulfills the law. Read the verses below:
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
You see, love fulfills the law.
R7-12 wrote:You forget the bits in between the texts you quoted, here they are,
“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:22-23).
Those who practice lawlessness are those who do not live by the law of God.
I could quote the entire New Testament but I think you would lose sight of my point. 1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart,
and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient,
for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine… The law was written to keep the lawless in line. Love is a higher law but it is a law with benefits instead of curses. How different is “thou shalt not steal†from “It is more blessed to give than receive†?
R7-12 wrote:Unfortunately you have chosen to add to the word of God – something we are very strictly commanded not to do,
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book (Revelation 22:18-19).
We are strictly forbidden to add “to the words of this book of this prophecy,†which is the book of the Revelation of John. Apparently, you are adding the entire Bible to the warning of Revelation and I don’t think that is what John was saying at all. Those plagues look pretty bad. I’d repent if I were you.
R7-12 wrote: Here is what the Bible actually says in the text you referred to,
We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell (Acts 15:27-29).
The words you added to the text are not found in the Bible, neither is does it apply to the context. To understand why these Gentile converts were specifically reminded of specific aspects of the law of God one must look into the culture of their time and location and the religious practices extant at this time.
The words I added were not put in italics like the actual words of the Bible were. (I lost my blue crayon…) It was meant to clarify not deceive. I wrote: “Then there are the don’ts:
In regard to Jewish rites and rituals, it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you (Gentiles) no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.
Which was in complete context of the whole chapter and the book. You only added what suited your version, leaving out the preceding which I had summarized by the word, “Gentiles“, and the phrase,“in regard to Jewish rituals.†Here is the portion I left out for brevity since I quoted the whole thing later:
Act 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the GENTILES in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words,
subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. When I leave something out it’s because I’m trying to spare you the lengthier post and I believe you can and should read everything from the Bible on your own to check the context. My translation was in context. I‘m not convinced about yours.
R7-12 wrote:Consider new converts living in Bombay India, do you think they might do well to receive specific reminders of the law due to their cultures’ common practices? Do you think it might be that new converts living in the rain forests of South America may require specific reminders of the law that would be quite different from their brethren in India?
How about those converts living in the region of Phrygia and Galatia whose cultures were significantly influenced by Greek thought and religious practice. Where sacrificing strangled animals to idols and then eating the meat was as common as temple prostitution which was the understood means by which the men received spirituality – in the first century CE? Think about it.
Yes, think about it. Do you think we need to have laws that pertain to bulls that push with their horns or what to do if an donkey goes astray? The law could be summarized in simply to ‘love God and love one another’ and those few additions that seemed necessary to the disciples at the time. The way the country is going, they may become even more relevant to us in the near future.
R7-12 wrote: The disciples had no authority to change or remove any of the laws of God any more than you or I do. Period…. Incoherent nonsense…
Jesus said to Peter; Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Would you like to explain this if not the way I interpreted it?
R7-12 wrote:Tell me if you can. What are the WORKS of the law, as you believe them to be?
What is the curse that those who are of the works of the law are under?
What is written in the book of the law that was to be DONE?
I would be very interested to hear how you understand these things.
Works of the law are doing things according to the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit of the law, which is love. The Sabbath was one command that Jesus continually broke according to the letter of the law, as commanded by the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees and scribes and lawyers of his day. This law was meant to give man a rest day so he couldn’t be forced by employers, slave owners, or nagging wives to work 7 days a week. It was set apart or hallowed as a day of rest and reflection but it was turned into a nightmare. A CURSE. The Pharisees were also big on fasting but not according to the will of God. Isa 58:6 [Is] not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?[Is it] not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? The Pharisees were big on the works of the law but they had no love of God, no mercy, no compassion. Jesus said they stole widows houses and he called them a generation of vipers. The works they did were just to be seen of men to get praise but they did not do the works of faith, love, humility and mercy that God wanted man to do. Jesus explained their teaching of the law as a burden heavy to be borne. How ever many hundred plus rules they added were a CURSE with punishments like stoning for those who picked up sticks on the Sabbath. (I bet you get lots of Sabbath rest under a pile of rocks) The works of faith that God wanted to be done were 1. Love God and 2. Love one another. Can you tell me what rules you think should be added besides the ones the disciples added about abstaining from blood, meats offered to idols and fornication?
R7-12 wrote:What things do you think James was referring to that were preached to people in every city, read in the synagogues every Sabbath day, since Moses, that James did not want to trouble these Gentiles with?
Answering these questions will go along way to helping us understanding one another, and more importantly, to help us better understand what is written, R7-12
That would be great, wouldn‘t it. BTW, did you notice that I quoted the entire portion of Acts that you were getting all anal about earlier? If you had just finished my post, you might have saved yourself writing those two paragraphs.
James said that Moses didn’t need to be preached since, 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Sure Moses was read and preached by the Pharisees. They did not accept Jesus as messiah nor believe his teaching to love one another, turn the other cheek, be humble, and merciful, did they? They were still under the Old Covenant as they knew it and they refused to take up the new in Christ. Paul was both a Jew and a Christian. He could observe the customs or not. They were not mandatory. Now that Jesus had come and showed how the sacrifices, rites, laws and feasts pertained to his birth, life, death and resurrection, they were just a remembrance for the Jewish followers of Christ. Read this potion of Acts which repeats the requirements of Acts 15:27-28:
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and
keepest the law.
As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that
they observe no such thing,
save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication
Did you understand that? I don’t want you to miss it just because you think you have a quarrel with me and have to argue the opposite side of this issue. I have nothing against you personally, but as Paul said, “But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.†Galatians 4:10
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now
