Almighty God's Sacred Calendar?

[R7-12]

unred typo,

You wrote,

Judge not, lest ye be judged. (ß btw, that‘s a new command by Christ, not in the old laws, if I‘m not mistaken.)

It was well understood in Israel that we are not to judge one another for one is our judge – God, as it is written in the OT,

“If one man sins against another, God will judge him†(1 Samuel 2:25a).

But God is the Judge (Psalm 75:7).

R7-12 wrote: What twisting of truth! You mix the law of God in with the commandments of the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, scribes and lawyers of Christ’s day and then assert Christ broke the law continually. The fact is Christ never broke the law of God! Ever! If you wish to qualify your statement by saying that you were mainly referring to the interpretation or application of the law as done by the Pharisees etc. fine, but it is of no significance to the matter at hand. We are either talking about the law of God as written in the Bible or we’re talking about something else.

I wish to repeat my statement and let you reread it. I said,“ The Sabbath was one command that Jesus continually broke according to the letter of the law, as commanded by the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees and scribes and lawyers of his day.†Jesus kept all the law. He fulfilled all the prophesies concerning himself. He represented all the symbolic portrayals in feasts, rites and sacrifices pertaining to himself. Perfectly.
…
I don’t see anywhere a description of the feasts and holy days that we are required to keep as Christians.

What about Pentecost in Acts 2.
What about the Feast mentioned in Acts 18:21?
What about Tabernacles in1 Corinthians 5:8?
What about the Feasts, New Moons, and sabbaths mentioned in Colossians 2:16?
What about the Feast mentioned in 2 Peter 2:13?
What about the Feast mentioned in Jude 12?
What about Tabernacles in the Millennium mentioned in Zechariah 14:16-19?
What about the New Moons and Sabbaths of the millennium mentioned in Isaiah 66:22-24?

All of these were observed by God’s people after Christ’s death and resurrection and ascension. How do you explain them within your premise that they are all fulfilled and thus not required to be observed by christians?

I don’t see anywhere a description of the feasts and holy days that we are required to keep as Christians.

So you don’t think Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Ezekiel, or David will be in the first resurrection as part of the elect of God with all true Christians?

As Israelites, there are many such things that are traditions of their special position with God, that are to be kept by them throughout time.

The Sabbaths, New Moons, Feasts and Holy Days are not traditions they are commandments. They are for all of God’s chosen for they all make up the nation He is gathering from all peoples under one law.

Deu 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.
2Ch 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate [it] to him, [and] to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This [is an ordinance] for ever to Israel.
Lev 23:14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. [It shall be] a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

For Gentiles I see:

Act 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the GENTILES in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words,

subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.

I think I understand your belief system much better now. The position you expressed above indicates you believe the Hebrew Scriptures are for the Hebrews and the Greek Scriptures are for mainstream Christians. Now the things you say make much more sense. I can now see that discussions where your position is based on this premises will be pointless.

The consensus of the disciples was that the essentials of OT law, rites and rituals could be contained in the teachings of Christ and the only requirements of the law to keep would be the abstaining of meat offered to idols, blood, and fornication.

I would like to highlight one of your confident assertions above,
the only requirements of the law to keep would be the abstaining of meat offered to idols, blood, and fornication.

This is what you said. Does it reflect what you really believe or do your words require additional explanation? I would like to know if you will stand behind this bold statement?

I said, The works of faith that God wanted to be done were 1. Love God and 2. Love one another. Can you tell me what rules you think should be added besides the ones the disciples added about abstaining from blood, meats offered to idols and fornication?†and you answered that “first, the disciples never added any additional rules or laws…and second, the rest of the commandments were not an issue as they would have all been well taught otherwise Paul and the others would have been remiss in their duties as teachers of God and thus exposed as false prophets according to Isaiah 8:20.†You missed the point. I meant that to the commands of Christ,that Jesus told them to teach, what else should they have added other than the 3 things they did? Specifically, what commands did Jesus leave out of his teaching that you want to stress?

No. I did not miss the point, I made the point. The reasoning given stands unchallenged. You dismiss it out of hand by merely stating I missed the point but that isn’t so. The entirety of the law is summed up by love – all of it, therefore, the Gentiles who were reminded to abstain from blood and strangled animal meat and what was offered to idols and from fornication, were well aware of all the rest of the law. It is obvious they would be – for sin is the transgression of the law, from 1 John 3:4 and the wages of sin is death, from Romans 6:23. These are the basics of truth.

R7-12 wrote: The law is love.

No, not really. This is where you stumble.

Yes. Really. To love God is to keep His commandments. This is absolute truth. This is the light of life for those whom it is given to understand for Messiah is the central feature of the law as the means by which we can be redeemed for breaking it. Thus we are to live by God’s commandments for they are righteousness

‘Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded us.’ (Deuteronomy 6:25).

For all Your commandments are righteousness (Psalm 119:172b).

Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea (Psalm 48:18).

That is Scripture and Scripture cannot be broken as it is written in John 10:35.

Concerning the law and love, the law is the key to understanding what true Godly love is. It exemplifies perfect righteous conduct – not as a means to earn salvation, which is utterly impossible, but to learn to become like God in attitude through practicing righteousness. When we are busy practicing righteousness to learn to have the mind which was in Christ, we abstain from all sin revealed by the law of God. For those sins we commit in error, we have a sacrifice that was given once for all that covers our sin upon our repentance of it.

The law emanates from God who is love, therefore to say the law “really isn’t love†is the same as saying God really isn’t God.

Tell me, as a son, how did you demonstrate love to your human father?

While you consider the question, I will provide you with ample Scriptures showing that to love God is to keep His commandments – to obey His law.

but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments (Ex. 20:6; Deut. 5:10).

Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments (Deut. 7:9).

Therefore you shall love the LORD your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always (Deut. 11:1).

And it shall be that if you earnestly obey My commandments which I command you today, to love the LORD your God and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul (Deut. 11:13).

“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 “in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess" (Deuteronomy 30:15-16).

“But take careful heed to do the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways, to keep His commandments, to hold fast to Him, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.†(Joshua 22:5).

And I said: “I pray, LORD God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments (Nehemiah 1:5).

Therefore I love Your commandments More than gold, yes, than fine gold! 128 Therefore all Your precepts concerning all things I consider to be right; I hate every false way (Psalm 119:127).

And I will delight myself in Your commandments, Which I love. 48 My hands also I will lift up to Your commandments, Which I love, And I will meditate on Your statutes (Psalm 119:47-48).

Oh, how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day. 98 You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies; For they are ever with me (Psalm 119:97-98).

I hate the double-minded, But I love Your law (Psalm 119:113).

Seven times a day I praise You, Because of Your righteous judgments. 165 Great peace have those who love Your law, And nothing causes them to stumble. 166 LORD, I hope for Your salvation, And I do Your commandments (Psalm 119:97-164-166).

The NT says precisely the same thing as the OT,

‘And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 “And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.†(Mark 12:30-31).

If you love Me, keep My commandments … 21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.†(John 14:15 & 21).

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you (John 15:9-12).

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,†“You shall not murder,†“You shall not steal,†“You shall not bear false witness,†“You shall not covet,†and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.†10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:8-10).

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.†(Galatians 5:13).

And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also (1 John 4:21).

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:2-3).

This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This i the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it (2 John 6).

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,†you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all (James 2:8-10).

It's all above the love of God and for God, as it is written.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Continuing…

The rich young ruler kept all the law but when it came to giving all his wealth to the poor, he had no compassion. Love fulfills the law but the law does not fulfill the requirements of love. Love goes far beyond law.

Here is the sequence,

Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?†17So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.†18He said to Him, “Which ones?†Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ †20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?†21Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.†22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions (Matthew 19:16-19).

The story of the rich man had nothing to do with his inability to show compassion, it was about his inability to place God first in his life by sacrificing that which was most important to him – all his wealth. Thus he was unwilling to fulfill the first four commandments which teach us how to love God.

Notice when asked what one must do to enter everlasting life, Jesus Christ himself said, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

Also notice that when asked which commandments we must observe, Messiah mentioned only the last five and the commandment regarding covetousness was summarized with, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.†He knew by the spirit of God that was in him how this man would respond and when he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?†then he asked of him that which he was not willing to do – love God. He had the loving your neighbor part because Christ didn’t disagree with him when he said he has kept all those commandments from his youth. Giving to the poor was not a problem but giving up all his wealth was a problem regardless of where or to whom it went.

When Messiah said, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me†he was telling him that what he had to do to obey God (through following Christ who obeyed his Father) was to be willing to give up all things in this material world and place God first in his life. Thus it was the unwillingness to fulfill the first great commandment that prevented this man from becoming perfect through obedience to the law of God – by faith!

R7-12 wrote: Loving your neighbor was a summary of the law from the start. What you are trying to do is make it appear as this were something new, it’s not.
…but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD (Lev. 19:18b).
This is the second great Commandment and a summary of the last six of the Ten Commandments

I’m just going by what the Bible said. Never a man spoke as he did.

Jesus said that He came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill it. He did not change the Law (Matthew 5:17-19).

Messiah did not begin teaching in Matthew 5:21 by telling everyone what the Old Testament or the law said, but what they had heard it said. This is an important distinction and crucial to understanding the context correctly. Christ didn’t say, “The law said… but I tell you.†Not once did he refute what was written or speak against any of the commandments of his God and Father; he is however, correctly expounding the spiritual aspects behind the literal commands. Christ was not talking about what Moses had told them but rather, what their religious system told them concerning the law. The Pharisee, scribes, Sadducees and priests did not know how to properly and fully explain the law because they didn’t keep the law out of love for God or fellowman, thus they taught it wrong, trying to be teachers of the law but not understanding the spiritual aspects behind it. Therefore it was necessary for Christ to come to do just that so that they had no excuse and were prepared to come under judgment. The Pharisee’s righteousness was based on the letter only and not also upon the intent of the law.

“For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven†(Matthew 5:20).

Where does the OT tell us to turn the other cheek?

“When reading the passages in context, Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21, it is clear that they are simply pointing out that the punishment should always fit the crime. These laws were given--not to the people, but to the courts, the assemblies, judges, and priests of a theocracy.

In the NT we find Jesus in the role of a civil magistrate. He makes one thing clear just a few verses before: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matt 5:17).

In verse 38, He says: "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.[/]i"

This is precisely what is expected of all Christians; to "turn the other cheek" (not to take "the Law" into our own hands). It is for the law to punish justly; the punishment always fitting the crime (eye for an eye) (also, see Matt. 18:21-22).†Source: http://www.theapologiaproject.org/faqs.htm

Where does the law say that to look on a woman with lust is committing adultery with her?

For the commandment is a lamp, And the law a light; Reproofs of instruction are the way of life, 24 To keep you from the evil woman, From the flattering tongue of a seductress. 25 Do not lust after her beauty in your heart, Nor let her allure you with her eyelids. 26 For by means of a harlot A man is reduced to a crust of bread; And an adulteress will prey upon his precious life (Proverbs 6:23-26).

“I have made a covenant with my eyes; Why then should I look upon a young woman?" (Job 31:1).

“If my heart has been enticed by a woman, Or if I have lurked at my neighbor’s door, 10 Then let my wife grind for another, And let others bow down over her. 11 For that would be wickedness; Yes, it would be iniquity deserving of judgment. 12 For that would be a fire that consumes to destruction, And would root out all my increase" (Job 31:9-12).

Consider also what it says in the Babylonian Talmud which never recognized Jesus Christ,

“One who gazes lustfully upon the small finger of a married woman, it is as if he has committed adultery with her†(Babylonian Talmud, Kallah, Ch. 1)

Where does the law say that to call your brother a fool will make you in danger of hell fire?

This type of attitude is covered by the sixth commandment murder, as it pertains to anger which harbors the spirit of murder.

You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. 18 ‘You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD (Leviticus 19:17-18).

The discretion of a man makes him slow to anger, And his glory is to overlook a transgression (Proverbs 19:11).

“The first of the three offenses that Jesus identified is anger, perhaps the most common motive for murder. He specifically condemned anger "without a cause." This phrase, omitted from the manuscripts favored by the modern critical text, is necessary for the sake of justice. It is right to be angry with a brother who has, for example, corrupted a child. There is such a thing as righteous anger, as distinct from reckless rage, although even this sort of anger must be tempered by forgiveness.

The second offense is calling a brother "Raca," Aramaic for a worthless person. Regarding a person in this way is also a motive for murder. The aborted fetus is seen as worthless. The old person eliminated by euthanasia is seen as worthless. The Jew, the feeble-minded, and the insane that Hitler slew in his mad scheme to build a perfect race were seen as worthless.

The third offense is saying to a brother, "Thou fool." For us, a fool is merely someone who is silly or stupid. But the term in Jesus' day was a deeply cutting insult with moral overtones. It pointed to someone who was not wise before Godâ€â€to an evil person, a reprobate. To see a fellow human being as essentially evil can serve as a motive for killing him. The killings done by rioters caught up in genocide or civil insurrection fall under this heading.

The three offenses are scaled from least to most serious. To be angry is bad, but to consider a brother as Raca is worse. It is an insult to his Creator (James 3:9). And to characterize a true brother as wicked is worst of all, for this is an insult to the Holy Spirit who indwells himâ€â€an offense similar to the unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy of the Spirit (Matt. 12:31-2). Jesus declared the Pharisees guilty of this kind of blasphemy when they denied that His works were done by the power of the Spirit and instead attributed them to the power of Satan (Matt. 12:24).†Source: http://www.themoorings.org/expositions/sermon/law.html

Or not to swear at all?

‘And you shall not swear by My name falsely, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD" (Leviticus 19:12).

“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain" (Exodus 20:7).

If a man makes a vow to the LORD, or swears an oath to bind himself by some agreement, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth (Numbers 30:2).

But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes,†be “Yes,†and your “No,†“No,†lest you fall into judgment (James 5:12).

The purpose of teaching against making vows was for the prevention of coming under the judgment of the law of God.

Or resist not evil?

This was in reference to taking the law into your own hands which was not to be done according to the law of God. The correct rendering of Matthew 5:39 is,

“But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.â€Â

It is not recommended to seek one’s own justice against evil people for you may find yourself in even greater difficulties if you do. If someone assaults you the matter is to be left for the local authorities, as it is written.

Yet Jesus said all these things and then said his yoke was easy and his burden was light.

Yes he did. Remember what he told the rich man, “if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments†(Matthew 19:17). It is also written, “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome†(1 John 5:3).

It is clear from Scripture that Christ’s yoke is to keep the commandments which is such a light burden that it’s not really a burden at all.

R7-12 wrote: Summarizing a law does not mean replacing that which has been summarized. For specific applications one must still refer to the larger document. And yes, all the laws are relevant because the principles behind each of them have application regardless of whether you own cattle or donkeys or cars and trucks or dogs and cats.

[quote:0d482]Jesus’ teaching was not a summary of the OT laws. His commands were the essence of the laws which God used to bring us to Christ.

That’s double-talk. You say Christ’s teaching was not a summary consisting of the OT laws. Then you say his commands were the essence of the laws which God used to bring us to Christ. Well, which laws would those be then? The same OT laws which you claim Christ did not teach?!?!

Those who walk in love are not under the OT laws.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [/quote:0d482]
The text above is speaking directly of the law of sacrifice. You must study this out before assuming what the term “under the law means.†The first covenant was based on the physical sacrifices which of themselves did not require faith. The second covenant was based on Christ’s sacrifice which depends entirely upon faith in God as does the receipt of the spirit (Acts 5:32, 1 John 3:24).

R7-12 wrote: You know not what “under the law†means.

Sure I do. I notice you didn’t elaborate. Read all of Galatians 5. Paul said the entire law was fulfilled with one word, love.

I have explained many things but refuse to consider them or even deal with them directly so what is the point?

At the beginning of this post I quote the following,

R7-12 wrote: The law is love.

No, not really. This is where you stumble.

At the end of your reply you say,

the entire law was fulfilled with one word, love.

Love continues. It is still needed. Thus it still requires fulfillment by God's people as the texts you quoted reveal, and that is done through love towards God and love towards our fellowman. This love is revealed and made manifest by living the law of God - thus the law is love.

R7-12

 

[unred typo]

I guess you meant for me to be brief so you could write more. LOL. 17 pages and you still missed my questions.
R7-12 wrote: I have explained many things but refuse to consider them or even deal with them directly so what is the point?
This typo of yours says it all. Nevertheless, I‘m going to ask the questions you missed again, because I feel they get to the root of your problem.

You started by trying to prove Jesus did not have a new message when he said, “judge not lest ye be judged.â€Â

R7-12 wrote: It was well understood in Israel that we are not to judge one another for one is our judge – God, as it is written in the OT,
“If one man sins against another, God will judge him†(1 Samuel 2:25a).
This is the rest of that verse. Obviously, it was not the verse you intended, or you’re seeing something that you want to see here:

25 If a man sins against another man, God [a] may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?" His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death.

You also offered another half a verse: “But God is the Judge†(Psalm 75:7), which doesn‘t address the subject either. Here is the rest of the verse:

7 But it is God who judges:
He brings one down, he exalts another.

Neither of these quotes prove that “judge not lest ye be judged†was already in the law before Christ taught it. You want to try again?


I also asked for a description of the feasts and holy days that we are required to keep as Christians. Instead you gave me a pathetic list of times when the disciples, who were Israelites, kept feasts and you mentioned feasts that will be kept in the Millennium.

R7-12 wrote: All of these were observed by God’s people after Christ’s death and resurrection and ascension. How do you explain them within your premise that they are all fulfilled and thus not required to be observed by christians?
I should have made it clear I meant Gentile Christians. The Israelites have a special place forever with God and special feasts and rites he gave just to them. In Christ there is no distinction between us and them but they continue to be his chosen people and may keep the feasts in remembrance of that special relationship. It is not required of those who follow Christ to become Jews or Israelites. We are children of Abraham by faith, not by works of the law, i.e. circumcision, holy days, special diet, etc. Do you have a specific command that says we must do these things as Gentile believers?


R7-12 wrote: I think I understand your belief system much better now. The position you expressed above indicates you believe the Hebrew Scriptures are for the Hebrews and the Greek Scriptures are for mainstream Christians. Now the things you say make much more sense. I can now see that discussions where your position is based on this premises will be pointless.

That’s not my position. I believe that in Christ we are one in the new covenant and as such we must keep the commands of Christ, both Jew and Gentile. The Hebrews have a special relation with God that can be celebrated in the traditions of their forefathers but those do not belong to us as Christians. These are as special to them as your birthday is to you. I can’t take your birthday as my birthday. I can celebrate with you but it will never be my birthday.

unred wrote:The consensus of the disciples was that the essentials of OT law, rites and rituals could be contained in the teachings of Christ and the only requirements of the law to keep would be the abstaining of meat offered to idols, blood, and fornication.

R7-12 wrote: I would like to highlight one of your confident assertions above,
the only requirements of the law to keep would be the abstaining of meat offered to idols, blood, and fornication.
This is what you said. Does it reflect what you really believe or do your words require additional explanation? I would like to know if you will stand behind this bold statement?

Is that what I said? Perhaps it isn’t clear enough to see I meant the teachings of Christ contain the essence of the law for Gentiles and the only parts not covered that were given to us are the abstaining from meats offered to idols, eating blood and fornication. I’ll stick to that bold statement unless proven wrong. Now, I would like to know what commands that you feel Jesus left out that you would like to add to that. I asked this before but got an obtuse reply. Here is your answer:

R7:12 wrote:No. I did not miss the point, I made the point. The reasoning given stands unchallenged. You dismiss it out of hand by merely stating I missed the point but that isn’t so. The entirety of the law is summed up by love – all of it, therefore, the Gentiles who were reminded to abstain from blood and strangled animal meat and what was offered to idols and from fornication, were well aware of all the rest of the law. It is obvious they would be – for sin is the transgression of the law, from 1 John 3:4 and the wages of sin is death, from Romans 6:23. These are the basics of truth.

From this I gather that you want to stress the entire 100 plus laws from the OT as being the law mentioned in 1 John 3. Not so. Read on:

1 John 3:21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Can you specifically list any laws that you feel should be added to the commands that Jesus gave us to follow?

R7-12 wrote:Concerning the law and love, the law is the key to understanding what true Godly love is. It exemplifies perfect righteous conduct – not as a means to earn salvation, which is utterly impossible, but to learn to become like God in attitude through practicing righteousness. When we are busy practicing righteousness to learn to have the mind which was in Christ, we abstain from all sin revealed by the law of God. For those sins we commit in error, we have a sacrifice that was given once for all that covers our sin upon our repentance of it.
The law emanates from God who is love, therefore to say the law “really isn’t love†is the same as saying God really isn’t God.
Tell me, as a son, how did you demonstrate love to your human father?

Let me say this again, once more with feeling. The law is not love. Love fulfills the law. The law is to restrain us from sin. Keeping God’s laws does show that you love him, yes. The commands that he gave us, the church, he gave through his Son.

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Christ is who saves us. His blood is the only way we can be cleansed from sin. Those who are in Christ have life. Keeping the commands of Christ keep you in Christ. Being in Christ is what saves you. It’s that simple. Any questions?

 

[R7-12]

Just a few...

R7-12 wrote: It was well understood in Israel that we are not to judge one another for one is our judge – God, as it is written in the OT,
“If one man sins against another, God will judge him†(1 Samuel 2:25a).

This is the rest of that verse. Obviously, it was not the verse you intended, or you’re seeing something that you want to see here:

25 If a man sins against another man, God [a] may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?" His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death.

You also offered another half a verse: “But God is the Judge†(Psalm 75:7), which doesn‘t address the subject either. Here is the rest of the verse:

7 But it is God who judges:
He brings one down, he exalts another.

Neither of these quotes prove that “judge not lest ye be judged†was already in the law before Christ taught it. You want to try again?

The Bible still states,
“If one man sins against another, God will judge him†And,

â€Âit is God who judgesâ€Â

You cannot negate the fact that the OT states God is judge. Anyone reading this would understand that if one man sins against another he should not judge him because it is God who judges us, therefore we ought not to. This makes it clear that Israel understood that individuals were not to judge one another.

If you don’t want to accept it – that’s your prerogative. The point is you claimed that Christ gave a new command when he said, “judge not lest you be judged.†By your own argument you are saying that Israel was taught to judge one another, if that were true God would not have instructed Moses to designate judges over the people Israel.

The OT taught that God is our Lawgiver and He is our Judge. It was re-stated by James in the NT,
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you to judge your neighbor? (James 4:12, NASB).

Here is the quoted text,
For the LORD is our Judge, The LORD is our Lawgiver, The LORD is our King; He will save us (Isaiah 33:22, NKJV).

He who is our judge was well known.

I also asked for a description of the feasts and holy days that we are required to keep as Christians. Instead you gave me a pathetic list of times when the disciples, who were Israelites, kept feasts and you mentioned feasts that will be kept in the Millennium. (emphasis added by R7-12)

R7-12 wrote: All of these were observed by God’s people after Christ’s death and resurrection and ascension. How do you explain them within your premise that they are all fulfilled and thus not required to be observed by christians?

I should have made it clear I meant Gentile Christians. The Israelites have a special place forever with God and special feasts and rites he gave just to them. In Christ there is no distinction between us and them but they continue to be his chosen people and may keep the feasts in remembrance of that special relationship.

Scriptural proof please.

You make a clear distinction between Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians – you cannot deny your own words above which also show how you contradict yourself. You said,

“In Christ there is no distinction between us and them†… “but they [Israelites] continue to be his chosen people.â€Â

Wrong. All of God’s called and chosen become Israel as the seed of Abraham by promise. What you are effectively saying is that by your false doctrines, false gods, etc. you are not an Israelite by promise chosen by God.

Gentiles have agreed to the covenant of God from the moment the covenant was given to Israel and throughout Israel’s history. They were required to obey everything an Israelite was commanded by God to do – including circumcision under the first covenant. There was ONE Law for the stranger and the home born – NO DISTINCTION! (Exodus 12:49, Leviticus 22:24, Numbers 15:29) God is not a respecter of persons showing partiality between His children (Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chronicles 19:7, Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11).

The Sabbaths, Holy Days, New Moons, and Feasts of God were not given as a remembrance of a special relationship but themselves carry special meaning and reflect the plan of salvation in their very timing, structure and application and are an integral part of how all of God’s true servants are to serve and worship the One True God.

Why must I do all the research for you? If you wanted to know the truth, you would examine the Scriptures without bias and find the same texts I am posting here. For example.

You say, I should have made it clear I meant Gentile Christians. Well the fact is Gentile Christians are to keep the Sabbaths, Holy Days, New Moons, and Feasts of God just like every child of God.

I said, What about Pentecost in Acts 2?

You didn’t reply so let me help,

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place (Acts 2:1).

And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven (Acts 2:5).

“And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9“Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 “Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11“Cretans and Arabsâ€â€we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God†(Acts 2:8-11).

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15“For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams (Acts 2:14-17).

And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved (Acts 2:21).

Many of the people who were called “devout men†were Gentiles and they were keeping the Feast of Weeks or Pentecost on the same day as all the devout Jews and the disciples of Christ – after Christ’s death and resurrection. If was not to be done anymore than the disciples had a perfect opportunity to teach thousands of people that they no longer needed to keep the Sabbaths, Holy Days, New Moons, and Feasts of God anymore – but that NEVER happened.

So how do you explaine Gentile Christians keeping Pentecost?

What about Tabernacles in 1 Corinthians 5:8?

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

The letter to Corinth, who was it for? The Gentile converts and any Jewish Christians who happen to live there. It was a major Greek metropolis filled with pagan customs and false gods, yet Paul taught these Gentile converts how to keep Passover and the feast of Unleavened Bread with the right attitude – without malice and wickedness, which puffs up and which is precisely what leaven represents during this spring Feast (Matthew 16:6, 11-12). At no other time does leaven represent malice and wickedness, but at other times it is representative of the Holy Spirit as it rises and grows in us, permeating our whole being (Matthew 13:33, Galatians 5:9).

I could describe how Gentiles kept the feasts in the for rest of these texts as well but I had originally asked you about them. They all prove the appointed times of God are for all people including converted Gentiels,

What about the Feasts, New Moons, and sabbaths mentioned in Colossians 2:16?
What about the Feast mentioned in 2 Peter 2:13?
What about the Feast mentioned in Jude 12?
What about Tabernacles in the Millennium mentioned in Zechariah 14:16-19?
What about the New Moons and Sabbaths of the millennium mentioned in Isaiah 66:22-24?

It is not required of those who follow Christ to become Jews or Israelites. We are children of Abraham by faith, not by works of the law, i.e. circumcision, holy days, special diet, etc. Do you have a specific command that says we must do these things as Gentile believers?

Specific command? The whole OT is full of specific commands regarding the Gentiles who agree to live according to the covenant of God. If you reject God’s commands you reject God. Period.

R7-12 wrote: I think I understand your belief system much better now. The position you expressed above indicates you believe the Hebrew Scriptures are for the Hebrews and the Greek Scriptures are for mainstream Christians. Now the things you say make much more sense. I can now see that discussions where your position is based on this premises will be pointless.

That’s not my position. I believe that in Christ we are one in the new covenant and as such we must keep the commands of Christ, both Jew and Gentile. The Hebrews have a special relation with God that can be celebrated in the traditions of their forefathers but those do not belong to us as Christians. These are as special to them as your birthday is to you. I can’t take your birthday as my birthday. I can celebrate with you but it will never be my birthday.

Here again you segregate the children of God into two groups. This is Jewish propaganda that mainstream Christianity has bought into.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:26-29).

ALL ONE! No distinction! Neither Jew NOR Gentile! If you are Christ’s you ARE ISRAEL!

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

And finally,

unred wrote:The consensus of the disciples was that the essentials of OT law, rites and rituals could be contained in the teachings of Christ and the only requirements of the law to keep would be the abstaining of meat offered to idols, blood, and fornication.

R7-12 wrote: I would like to highlight one of your confident assertions above,
the only requirements of the law to keep would be the abstaining of meat offered to idols, blood, and fornication.
This is what you said. Does it reflect what you really believe or do your words require additional explanation? I would like to know if you will stand behind this bold statement?

Your response to my question was,

Is that what I said?

Then you qualify it with this,

Perhaps it isn’t clear enough to see I meant the teachings of Christ contain the essence of the law for Gentiles and the only parts not covered that were given to us are the abstaining from meats offered to idols, eating blood and fornication. I’ll stick to that bold statement unless proven wrong.

Ahhh, I see. You are clearly not certain of what you say. Well if what you say is true, that Gentile Christians are absolutely not required to keep any other law except what you assert, namely, “abstaining from meats offered to idols, eating blood and fornication,†then please explain the following words of Jesus Christ,

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18“For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19“Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20“For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:17-20).

The question is twofold. In verse 17 Christ said he did not come to destroy the Law of the Prophets. This is clearly reference to the OT Law and Prophets. In verse 18 Christ speaks again of the law of his God and Father stating that not the slightest grammatical mark will pass from the law till ALL is fulfilled. Then he states in verse 19 that, Whoever breaks ONE of the least of THESE commandments, AND teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. So can you identify what might be considered the LEAST of ALL the commandments of God? And explain how it is Christ declared we are ALL to keep the Law of his God and Father but you claim we do not have to?

If you have difficulty understanding the question and its relevance to the text, then consider answering this one,

Jesus Christ was asked what one must do to receive everlasting life. This is his response,
“But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments†(Matthew 19:17).

Now we know beyond doubt that he is referring to his Father’s commandments as given in the OT because in the next verse he begins quoting them. So, please explain how it is Christ taught us all to keep all of God’s commandments but you are teaching us to only abstain from meats offered to idols, eating blood (both of which we are so unlikely to encounter we don’t have to even think about them) and fornication?

If you would like I could provide many more texts from the NT that state emphatically that we are to keep God’s commandments. If that helps???

Now, I would like to know what commands that you feel Jesus left out that you would like to add to that. I asked this before but got an obtuse reply. Here is your answer:

R7:12 wrote:No. I did not miss the point, I made the point. The reasoning given stands unchallenged. You dismiss it out of hand by merely stating I missed the point but that isn’t so. The entirety of the law is summed up by love – all of it, therefore, the Gentiles who were reminded to abstain from blood and strangled animal meat and what was offered to idols and from fornication, were well aware of all the rest of the law. It is obvious they would be – for sin is the transgression of the law, from 1 John 3:4 and the wages of sin is death, from Romans 6:23. These are the basics of truth.

From this I gather that you want to stress the entire 100 plus laws from the OT as being the law mentioned in 1 John 3. Not so. Read on:

1 John 3:21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Can you specifically list any laws that you feel should be added to the commands that Jesus gave us to follow?

You trap yourself with your own words unred typo. You have become ensnared by your own contradictions. You ask if I feel any additional laws should be added to the commands Jesus gave us to follow, referring to the text above and the portion you bolded which says, And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Well my friend you have already done so yourself. If these commands above (only summaries) are the only commands that are to be kept by Gentile Christians then your emphatic statement about abstaining of meat offered to idols, blood, and fornication are also in addition to Christ’s words!

Your arguments are shown to be illogical and inadequate.

R7-12 wrote:Concerning the law and love, the law is the key to understanding what true Godly love is. It exemplifies perfect righteous conduct – not as a means to earn salvation, which is utterly impossible, but to learn to become like God in attitude through practicing righteousness. When we are busy practicing righteousness to learn to have the mind which was in Christ, we abstain from all sin revealed by the law of God. For those sins we commit in error, we have a sacrifice that was given once for all that covers our sin upon our repentance of it.
The law emanates from God who is love, therefore to say the law “really isn’t love†is the same as saying God really isn’t God.
Tell me, as a son, how did you demonstrate love to your human father?

Let me say this again, once more with feeling. The law is not love.

You said this before,

R7-12 wrote: The law is love.

No, not really. This is where you stumble.

Ok, let me get this straight. You have said repeatedly that the law of God is not love. Ok, if we accept that assertion how do we deal with elementary logic when we examine a few commonly accepted truths?

1) God is love
2) The Law comes from God
3) Love is walking according to the law

I am interested in reading your reply.

What is perplexing is that in one breath you say the law is not love but then in the next breath you say,

Love fulfills the law.

That is a contradiction. If demonstrating love fulfills the law then the law is love! Explain how this conclusion is wrong please?

What is even more perplexing is what you say next,

Keeping God’s laws does show that you love him, yes.

So what is it? You told me many times that the law is not love, now you say it is?!?!?!?

The law is to restrain us from sin. Keeping God’s laws does show that you love him, yes. The commands that he gave us, the church, he gave through his Son.

[quote:4013f] Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Christ is who saves us. His blood is the only way we can be cleansed from sin. Those who are in Christ have life. Keeping the commands of Christ keep you in Christ. Being in Christ is what saves you. It’s that simple. Any questions?[/quote:4013f]

No. God is the one who saves us (1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 2:3, Titus 1:3, Titus 2:10, Titus 3:4, Jude 25). The sacrifice of Christ pays our debt to th elaw for sin but it is God saves us and it is He who raises us from the dead as He did Christ – but those are other topics for another time (Matthew 3:9, Acts 26:8, 1 Corinthians 6:14, 1 Corinthians 15:15, 2 Corinthians 1:9).

Christ gave no commandments except those he received from his God and Father. He did nothing of his own will but only that which his Father commanded him to do.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me (John 6:38).

Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work (John 4:34).

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me (John 5:30).

And God changes not!

“For I am the LORD, I do not change (Malachi 3:6).

Now you said,

The law is to restrain us from sin.

The does not restrain us from sin, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be (Romans 8:7).

The law itself is not subject to your mind unless you willingly allow your mind to be subject to the law. Then you can apply the principles in the law to help you resist sin by living according to the commandments and keeping them in the forefront of your mind continually – as King David did.

Therefore the law can only help us to resist sin if we apply it in our lives – thereby keeping the law!

Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin (1 John 2:1).

I have answered all of your questions thoroughly but you have not yet answered all of mine.

I await your reply.

PS, Don't forget to ask me to prove through Scripture that the law of God is love!

R7-12

 

[unred typo]

Hello, R7-12, I see you‘re back already having banged out another dozen or so pages. Do you even read my posts or yours before posting a reply?


“It is God who judges†and “If one man sins against another, God will judge him†does not compare to “Judge not lest ye be judged, for with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged.†If you think so, a remedial reading class might help.

You have omitted parts of my explanation and made me sound like I contradicted myself, which I did not. This kind of tactic to discredit me is nothing short of deception or ignorance, I’m not sure which, but I‘d hate to think either of you. This is what you reduced my paragraph to: “In Christ there is no distinction between us and them†… “but they [Israelites] continue to be his chosen people.â€Â

This is what I actually said: “I should have made it clear I meant Gentile Christians. The Israelites have a special place forever with God and special feasts and rites he gave just to them. In Christ there is no distinction between us and them but they continue to be his chosen people and may keep the feasts in remembrance of that special relationship. It is not required of those who follow Christ to become Jews or Israelites. We are children of Abraham by faith, not by works of the law, i.e. circumcision, holy days, special diet, etc. Do you have a specific command that says we must do these things as Gentile believers?â€Â

If anyone of normal intelligence read my entire paragraph, I doubt they would think I contradicted myself as you have suggested. In fact, the whole explanation was written to explain how we could be one with the Israelites by faith and how they could still be special by traditions.

You asked for scripture but I already gave you the scriptural proof. These are verses I previously gave you (but you may have thought they were your verses) that show that God had a special relationship with Israel forever, which any 10 yr old Sunday school student knows full well:

Deu 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.
2Ch 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate [it] to him, [and] to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This [is an ordinance] for ever to Israel.
Lev 23:14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. [It shall be] a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

These are feasts and ordinances given specifically to Israelites and to their Jewish proselytes. As I said before, if you want to keep them, knock yourself out but don’t try to claim they are required of Gentile believers in Christ. It is simply not true.

You asked “So how do you explain Gentile Christians keeping Pentecost?â€Â

LOL. Would you want to explain how these were Gentile Christians and not Jewish proselytes? The disciples hadn’t even gone out winning converts yet. Go ahead, take a couple more pages. By the time you finish, no one will be reading it anyways. Or is that the plan? Where I come from we call that a snow job. :wink:

R7-12 wrote: What about Tabernacles in 1 Corinthians 5:8?
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Reading your verse in context, we can see that Paul is using the feast as a metaphor here. Do you know what a metaphor is? These are symbols, not to be confused with actual leaven, unleavened bread, or Passover lamb meat. You may be an actual lump if you want to be, but I’ll take that as symbolic. :wink: Here’s your verse:

Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

R7-12 wrote:Here again you segregate the children of God into two groups. This is Jewish propaganda that mainstream Christianity has bought into.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:26-29).
ALL ONE! No distinction! Neither Jew NOR Gentile! If you are Christ’s you ARE ISRAEL!

Do you think Paul meant that literally there was no distinction, or just that spiritually they were all one in Christ, all sons of God, all under the Lordship of Jesus? Because I’m sure the women were still women and the men, men, and the slaves were still slaves. Now to be quite honest, I would not even insist that the Israelites were still expected to keep the feasts and rites since they were fulfilled in Christ. You just may have stumbled onto something there, R7-12. The disciples were ministers of the new testament, not the old. As proclaimed in the following:

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

You know, the more we discuss this, the more we sound alike. We agree that we are one in the Lordship of Christ, following his commands. This is good. Now when you realize what that means, we can quit all this ‘chasing our tails’ business.

It would help our discussion if you could at least stop misquoting me, however. That is just plain rude. Look at what you did here:

R7:12 wrote: Ahhh, I see. You are clearly not certain of what you say. Well if what you say is true, that Gentile Christians are absolutely not required to keep any other law except what you assert, namely, “abstaining from meats offered to idols, eating blood and fornication,†then please explain the following words of Jesus Christ,..(Matthew 5:17-20).

That was quite a poor translation of my actual statement; “Perhaps it isn’t clear enough to see I meant the teachings of Christ contain the essence of the law for Gentiles and the only parts not covered that were given to us are the abstaining from meats offered to idols, eating blood and fornication. I’ll stick to that bold statement unless proven wrong.â€Â

Did you deliberately leave out the required ‘teachings of Christ’ in your mistranslation of what I said?

Read it again for the last time:
“the teachings of Christ contain the essence of the law for Gentiles and the only parts not covered that were given to us are the abstaining from meats offered to idols, eating blood and fornication.â€Â

My arguments are not illogical or inadequate but your reading is sloppy and your hurried reply is evidence that you never understood what I wrote before you went off half cocked in your ridicule. I’m quite disappointed with your whole post.

Your perplexity in trying to reconcile the love/law issue shows that you could use some help with your logic skills and common sense or I could use some help with my communication skills. Let’s work this out
s l o w l y. :fadein:

This wording of yours is confusing:
1) God is love
2) The Law comes from God
3) Love is walking according to the law

It should read:
1) God is love
2) The Law of Christ comes from God and fulfills and surpasses the OT law of God
3) Love is walking according to the Law of Christ

When I said, “Love fulfills the law,†you said, “That is a contradiction. If demonstrating love fulfills the law then the law is love! Explain how this conclusion is wrong please?

I’ll try but so far everything has over flown you. The first two commands are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Obviously these laws are all about love. Do you want to stop here? I could agree to this point. Add the other 8 and you have expanded the concept to more specific practical adaptations of the first 2. Do you want to stop here? I could agree to this point, more or less. Now we still have a hundred or so ordinances. We have everything from feasts to runny sores, scabs and boils to mixing wool and linen in fabrics to what part of what animal to heave or wave before the altar. Are you ready to call this love? Love is ‘love one another’ or ‘love the Lord your God,’ it’s not ‘thou shalt not allow a man with a crooked back to serve as priest.’ These laws are not love, in themselves. Obedience to God is showing love for God but the law is not love. Jesus kept and fulfilled those laws of obedience to God out of love for his Father. God is love and his OT laws were based on the concept of love but the OT law is not equal to the Law of Christ. The OT law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The law of Christ is love. To show our love for God, we must obey his Son.

Let’s go with an example. The law says, 'thou shalt not steal.' Is that love? Do you say, “I love you so much, I‘m not stealing from you?†Love says, “take mine, I want you to have it.†Now if you are not stealing from others, you are keeping the law but love is more than that, you will be giving to others. Love fulfills the law, because if you love everyone, you are not going to steal from anyone. The law is not necessarily love because you can keep the law and not love anyone. 1 Corinthians 13 even says you can bestow all your goods to feed the poor, and give your body to be burned, and not have love.

I don’t know how to explain it any better than this. If you don’t get it yet, maybe we should drop this for now and let those things we have brought up soak in. I have been a little rough on you for your error in preaching observance of Jewish rituals and rites but I do believe you feel you are in the right. I can’t agree but I can respect that. There is no point in dragging out the same arguments over and over. This is your thread. You may have the last word.

God bless your search for truth.

 

[R7-12]

unred typo,

You did such a fine job proving my point I think I'll just let your post remain as it is.

In fact, I may read it a second time. You might want to do the same. :wink:

R7-12