Am I to forgive one who doesn't ask for it?

[jgredline]

:

 

[Guest]

If there is someone who has done something horrendous to me but never asked forgiveness, . . . am I still required to forgive them for their actions against me? For example, my ex wife, who basically stabbed me through the heart, then kicked me repeatedly when I was down. If she never asked for forgiveness for doing that, am I still supposed to forgive her, or only IF she asked for forgiveness?

While I do not believe it will always be an immediate action to forgive - and there is a time of healing and understaning.

I beleive the answer to your question is: yes.

A local example to me, that I believe was broadcast around the world, would be the Amish school shooting and the Amish communities forgiveness of the shooter and his family.

 

[Orion]

Thanks for the answers. I may yet find myself completely forgiving my ex for what she did for me, even when she never asks for forgiveness.

Now, let's turn the conversation to God. Will God forgive those who don't ask for forgiveness?

 

[jgredline]

Thanks for the answers. I may yet find myself completely forgiving my ex for what she did for me, even when she never asks for forgiveness.

This is and would be a great first step

Now, let's turn the conversation to God. Will God forgive those who don't ask for forgiveness?

Well, Let me put it this way...NO...Why? Because nobody can approach a Holy God unless he is clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ...No one can be clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ unless he is born again...So since we are to worship God through Spirit, we need the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be able to Worship all mighty and hOLY God...God is God and he can do what ever he wants, but he in the same way that when an un-believer Prays to God for say a better Job, God does not hear that request...So How can God forgive those who are not his? He can't...They are not his...

When we Pray....
We Pray to the father
Through the Holy Spirit
In Jesus name....

 

[handy]

Good question Orion, and good answer JG.

However, I think your answer, JG covers most folks, but not always. Consider Paul. He had in no way asked for forgiveness when Jesus said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but rise, and enter the city, and it shall be told you what you must do."

So, while I pretty much agree with your post, I think I would change the wording from God can't, to God ususally won't. He has made some exceptions.

But, I agree totally with you insofar as non-believers praying for a better job or whatever.

 

[jgredline]

Good question Orion, and good answer JG.

However, I think your answer, JG covers most folks, but not always. Consider Paul. He had in no way asked for forgiveness when Jesus said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but rise, and enter the city, and it shall be told you what you must do."

So, while I pretty much agree with your post, I think I would change the wording from God can't, to God ususally won't. He has made some exceptions.

But, I agree totally with you insofar as non-believers praying for a better job or whatever.

Handy
I thought about that afterwards while I was welding an intake manifold and came back to change my post, but I see I don't need to since you have sort of done it for me..., so thanks for affirming my thoughts...Your wording does fit better.... I feel better now...
bLESSINGS,
Javier

 

[Orion]

When I see, "not forgiving those who aren't his", what immediately came into my mind was, "...but yet they are His to punish?"

I see a problem when everyone knows that it is best for us to forgive those who have sinned against us, even if they don't ask for it, . . . but say that God only forgives those who ask for it.

Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

[handy]

No problem, JG!

Orion,

I do see what you mean, but I think we need to realize the difference between the sins we committ against each other, and humankind's sin against God.

When someone sins against us, no matter how egregiously, it is from one sinner against the other. We're all in this cesspool together. For instance, even though I didn't do anything to 'deserve' the abuse as a child, I still sin against others, and hurt others by my actions. I'm not holy.

But God is holy. And our sin is against a Holy God who never sinned against us. We ALL are His. He created us. Not only that, He created us for His holy purposes, and we all rebel against Him.

Then, when God sent His Son to take our sin upon Himself, thus providing a way for all to come to repentance and forgiveness, many humans still refuse to come to Christ and continue in their rebellion against God.

 

[Quath]

I see a problem when everyone knows that it is best for us to forgive those who have sinned against us, even if they don't ask for it, . . . but say that God only forgives those who ask for it.

Can you see where I'm coming from?

I think that is a pretty good point. The whole judgement thing is hard to swallow because of observations like this.

Another similar idea is once you are face to face with God in the afterlife, can you ask for forgiveness then? What's God going to say? "Ummm. No. You didn't ask in time. If you had asked a minute ago when you were alive, I would have, but not now."

There are the other problems visualizing this like if you had the following appearing before God upon death:
Man 1: I killed a lot of people and raped a few, but I accepted Jesus as my savior.
God: Welcome to heaven.
Man 2: I swindled, lied and tortured small animals, but I confessed to Jesus.
God: Come on in to heaven.
Man 3: Let's just say there was a lot of blood and some accusations that may or may not have been true. But it doesn't matter because I got Jesus's free gift.
God: Heaven awaits you.
Man 4: I founded an oprhanage because of my Buddhists principl..
God: Go to hell and suffer for all of eternity. Muahahahah.

Or something like that.

 

[handy]

I think that is a pretty good point. The whole judgement thing is hard to swallow because of observations like this.

Another similar idea is once you are face to face with God in the afterlife, can you ask for forgiveness then? What's God going to say? "Ummm. No. You didn't ask in time. If you had asked a minute ago when you were alive, I would have, but not now."

There are the other problems visualizing this like if you had the following appearing before God upon death:
Man 1: I killed a lot of people and raped a few, but I accepted Jesus as my savior.
God: Welcome to heaven.
Man 2: I swindled, lied and tortured small animals, but I confessed to Jesus.
God: Come on in to heaven.
Man 3: Let's just say there was a lot of blood and some accusations that may or may not have been true. But it doesn't matter because I got Jesus's free gift.
God: Heaven awaits you.
Man 4: I founded an oprhanage because of my Buddhists principl..
God: Go to hell and suffer for all of eternity. Muahahahah.

Or something like that.

: Does seem pretty absurd when put like that.

But, I think the answer lies more in what I had posted earlier. Our judgment before God doesn't really have much to do with all the sins we committ against each other here and now. We tend to have this impression that if we act in a nice way we are "Godly" and if we are a ratter we are "Sinful". That's just too simplistic.

We need to understand what holiness is, and how we fall short of it.

 

[tim-from-pa]

After you pour sugar in their gas tank, light their cat on fire, smear grease on the brake rotors of their car, spit in their coffee, and feel better about being ahead in the feud, then you can forgive them without them asking!!! 8-)



Sounds stupid, huh!

Then forgive. :wink:

So that cat on fire that ran past my house was all the way from Texas? :-D

 

[Orion]

I think that is a pretty good point. The whole judgement thing is hard to swallow because of observations like this.

Another similar idea is once you are face to face with God in the afterlife, can you ask for forgiveness then? What's God going to say? "Ummm. No. You didn't ask in time. If you had asked a minute ago when you were alive, I would have, but not now."

There are the other problems visualizing this like if you had the following appearing before God upon death:
Man 1: I killed a lot of people and raped a few, but I accepted Jesus as my savior.
God: Welcome to heaven.
Man 2: I swindled, lied and tortured small animals, but I confessed to Jesus.
God: Come on in to heaven.
Man 3: Let's just say there was a lot of blood and some accusations that may or may not have been true. But it doesn't matter because I got Jesus's free gift.
God: Heaven awaits you.
Man 4: I founded an oprhanage because of my Buddhists principl..
God: Go to hell and suffer for all of eternity. Muahahahah.

Or something like that.

A lot of what Quath has said here is where I've been in my life, in questioning the whole area of Christian forgiveness, our roll and God's.

The problem is, in the case of "Man 4", he may have never heard of Jesus his whole life, but ran a thriving orphanage and help out countless kids. Yet, his sins are unforgiven. I don't really see the justice there.

 

[Guest]

A lot of what Quath has said here is where I've been in my life, in questioning the whole area of Christian forgiveness, our roll and God's.

The problem is, in the case of "Man 4", he may have never heard of Jesus his whole life, but ran a thriving orphanage and help out countless kids. Yet, his sins are unforgiven. I don't really see the justice there.

Orion or Quath - or really whomever:

What is Justice? Or perhaps what is your idea of Justice?

I believe that God is Holy and Just. He is competely, 100% Holy - as such, those that dwell with Him - in Heaven - must be the same.

 

[Quath]

What is Justice? Or perhaps what is your idea of Justice?

To me justice is punishing the guilty for their crime and treating people as fairly as possible under known rules.

So the Biblical version of God does not protray justice based on this. Some examples are

1. God killed David's son for David's sin. God blessed The israelites when they killed the thief's children from setaling from the prostitute. - This is punishing the innocent for a crime they did not commit.

2. God said that adulterous women should be killed. Jesus pardoned one. God was ok with Moses being with a foreigner but not others. Why have different rules for different people?

3. God sends people to hell when they do not have the ability to find Jesus (they do not know the rules).

 

[Rick W]

Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Job 40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

 

[Guest]

To me justice is punishing the guilty for their crime and treating people as fairly as possible under known rules.

So the Biblical version of God does not protray justice based on this. Some examples are

1. God killed David's son for David's sin. God blessed The israelites when they killed the thief's children from setaling from the prostitute. - This is punishing the innocent for a crime they did not commit.

2. God said that adulterous women should be killed. Jesus pardoned one. God was ok with Moses being with a foreigner but not others. Why have different rules for different people?

3. God sends people to hell when they do not have the ability to find Jesus (they do not know the rules).

Okay - so what are the 'known rules'? If the known rule is that everyone has sin - isn't then everyone guilty of sin?

I would also like to get back to your idea of Justice - is the purpose of "Justice" merely to punish?

 

[Quath]

Okay - so what are the 'known rules'? If the known rule is that everyone has sin - isn't then everyone guilty of sin?

It seems that according to Christianity, you are suppose to know that you are a sinner and that you need Jesus. Neither is knowledge we are born with. So humans have to go through two steps. The first is hearing this and the second is believing this. I am in the second category, but there are many in the first category.

I would also like to get back to your idea of Justice - is the purpose of "Justice" merely to punish?

I guess justice does also involve rewards as well. But it should be for a crime committed against someone and people are treated fairly under known rules. So for example, giving white people the power to vote as a reward is not justice since it excludes blacks for no reason. Or having a hidden law that gives some people in-the-know money is not justice either.

 

[Solo]

The crime that all are guilty of is sin, and the penalty of this sin which is death is judged upon all mankind.

The penalty was paid by one man, Jesus Christ, and this payment is a free gift to all who accept it.

Only those who reject the payment given for the sin debt will continue on the road to pay the debt on their own.

 

[jgredline]

Only those who reject the payment given for the sin debt will continue on the road to pay the debt on their own.

Praise God, I took him up on his free offer...!

 

[Quath]

Only those who reject the payment given for the sin debt will continue on the road to pay the debt on their own.

So it is reject or not accept?

For example, if you never hear of Jesus then you do not reject it. And if that is the rule, then everyone who never hears of Jesus goes to heaven. (If this is true, then Christianity should disappear so everyone goes to heaven.)

If this is not true then people are being tortured for all of eternity because they never got the chance to learn of Jesus. I would not call this justice. It is like hiding the rules of law and then punishing people when they break the rules.