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An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB

Butch5

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Well that just like the good ol' Catholic 'Sacred Mystery'- to have us chasing our tales!
How is that? It seems pretty clear to me. One being the Father who is Deity. Another being the Son, who also is Deity. The Holy Spirit which is actually the Father in a limited sense. In other words not in His fulness. Think of Deity as royalty. The king is royalty, therefore his son is also royalty. However, the son is not the king.
 

theMadJW

 
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How is that? It seems pretty clear to me. One being the Father who is Deity. Another being the Son, who also is Deity. The Holy Spirit which is actually the Father in a limited sense. In other words not in His fulness. Think of Deity as royalty. The king is royalty, therefore his son is also royalty. However, the son is not the king.
True- but most people are indoctrinated with church dogma to see that!

Know with the Heb/Greek word for "spirit" means?
 

WIP

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I think you miss the point. Text doesn't say everlasting Father. If that was the translation then the Jewish scholars who translated the Septuagint would have translated it as such
No disrespect intended but didn't you already say that certain things have been translated incorrectly by those same scholars? I'm confused.
 

Butch5

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No disrespect intended but didn't you already say that certain things have been translated incorrectly by those same scholars? I'm confused.
Hi WIP,

In that post I was referring to Jewish scholars around 300-250 BC. We don't have the Hebrew text they used to translate into Greek. There is a story that goes along with the translation. Many of the early Christians believed it was inspired by God. It is said that Ptolemy, Pharaoh in Egypt was collecting writings for a library and that he sent to Israel and requested a copy of the Hebrew Scriptures for this library. It is said that there were 72 Jewish scholars who went along with the Scriptures to Egypt and that Ptolemy put them on an island, separated them giving each a small hut and they were to translate the Scriptures. They were separated so that there would be no collusion in the translation. The story goes that their translations into Greek were all in agreement. I don't know how accurate that is, but the early Christians believed it was true.
 

Randy

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I am sticking with the text. That's why I pointed out the grammar
If it was God through the angel (acts 7) how then do you see the angel as Jesus? Isn't that your belief that the angel was Jesus?
You are free to believe that but have not shown the angel as Jesus or Jesus speaking to Moses.
 

Randy

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Firstly, the Trinity is three. The Bible clearly calls both Father and Jesus theos or God. I believe your translation even renders John 1:1, 'the word was a god', correct? Clearly the Father and Jesus aren't the same being. So, if they are both called theos or God, how is what I said wrong?
There can not be two Gods
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Jesus is the firstborn. The fullness was gifted not formed. It is the Father's Deity in the Son. They are one.

From the will of another - The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.

In that gifting the Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. (God) in that context.
 

JLB

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There can not be two Gods
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Jesus is the firstborn. The fullness was gifted not formed. It is the Father's Deity in the Son. They are one.

From the will of another - The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.

In that gifting the Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. (God) in that context.

The Father, the Word and the Spirit are one.

Elohim, God in the Hebrew is plural, yet one.

The Godhead is one; They are one.


Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Genesis 1:26


  • God said, “Let Us make man in Our image,





JLB
 

Randy

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The Father, the Word and the Spirit are one.

Elohim, God in the Hebrew is plural, yet one.

The Godhead is one; They are one.


Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Genesis 1:26


  • God said, “Let Us make man in Our image,





JLB
In this we agree the Father and Son and Spirit are one.
I do not view the Spirit as a person but as the Spirit of my heavenly Father. The Fathers Spirit would be eternal and Divine but acts according to the mind of Spirit and speaks only what He hears. He will also act and speak according to Jesus's will because Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne,

Jesus states the Father is the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does that believe in one God for He stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"?

Jesus stated He lives by the Father
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Jesus states the Father is His God and the only true God and He is the head of the body of Christ.

The indestructible life in Jesus is the Fathers Deity. Apart from the Father He could do nothing.
But He will never be apart from the Father.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

I believe all things are from the Father and were made through the Son. But I would state that it was the Father living in Jesus doing His work. Just as the Father was in the Son of Man doing His work. The Deity in Jesus is the Father not another God. Gifted not formed. But Jesus's Spirit was formed.

Let us make...

The one on the throne in heaven worshipped by the host of heaven is the one Jesus calls His God and our God. His Father and our Father. Jesus received from the Father. Jesus is what He is by the grace of God. It is the Father who glorifies Him.

The Father has not received from any other being. All things come by/from Him according to His command and at His will even Jesus His firstborn. Heaven and earth may move at the command of the Son even so He abides within the framework of the Fathers will. The Father abides according to His own will and does all that He is pleased to do for He is the only true God.

You can accept this or reject it as my goal is for your understanding of the relationship of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. I am not leading a rebellion.
 

Butch5

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There can not be two Gods
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Jesus is the firstborn. The fullness was gifted not formed. It is the Father's Deity in the Son. They are one.

From the will of another - The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.

In that gifting the Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. (God) in that context.
Is Jehovah God?
 

JLB

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In this we agree the Father and Son and Spirit are one.
I do not view the Spirit as a person but as the Spirit of my heavenly Father. The Fathers Spirit would be eternal and Divine but acts according to the mind of Spirit and speaks only what He hears. He will also act and speak according to Jesus's will because Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne,

Jesus states the Father is the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does that believe in one God for He stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"?

Jesus stated He lives by the Father
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Jesus states the Father is His God and the only true God and He is the head of the body of Christ.

The indestructible life in Jesus is the Fathers Deity. Apart from the Father He could do nothing.
But He will never be apart from the Father.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

I believe all things are from the Father and were made through the Son. But I would state that it was the Father living in Jesus doing His work. Just as the Father was in the Son of Man doing His work. The Deity in Jesus is the Father not another God. Gifted not formed. But Jesus's Spirit was formed.

Let us make...

The one on the throne in heaven worshipped by the host of heaven is the one Jesus calls His God and our God. His Father and our Father. Jesus received from the Father. Jesus is what He is by the grace of God. It is the Father who glorifies Him.

The Father has not received from any other being. All things come by/from Him according to His command and at His will even Jesus His firstborn. Heaven and earth may move at the command of the Son even so He abides within the framework of the Fathers will. The Father abides according to His own will and does all that He is pleased to do for He is the only true God.

You can accept this or reject it as my goal is for your understanding of the relationship of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. I am not leading a rebellion.



It seems like you are saying... because the Father is God, then Jesus can not be God.


Is this what you believe?




JLB
 

wondering

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Hi WIP,

In that post I was referring to Jewish scholars around 300-250 BC. We don't have the Hebrew text they used to translate into Greek. There is a story that goes along with the translation. Many of the early Christians believed it was inspired by God. It is said that Ptolemy, Pharaoh in Egypt was collecting writings for a library and that he sent to Israel and requested a copy of the Hebrew Scriptures for this library. It is said that there were 72 Jewish scholars who went along with the Scriptures to Egypt and that Ptolemy put them on an island, separated them giving each a small hut and they were to translate the Scriptures. They were separated so that there would be no collusion in the translation. The story goes that their translations into Greek were all in agreement. I don't know how accurate that is, but the early Christians believed it was true.
The Jews were very careful in translating.
Some mistakes were still made however...I member that there were names for the TYPE of mistake.

A common one was that a word jotted down by a previous scribe was picked up as part of the text.
 

wondering

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I'm not asking who. I'm asking what? You said God begets God like human begets human. That's substance, it's a what not a who. In this above post you said God is a who. This is where I find that the confusion comes in. When we go back and forth between God who, and God what, indiscriminately, we wind up going in circles. If God begets God as substance (I agree) then whatever the Father is the Son is. The act of begetting produces another of the same kind. So, now we have two samples of whatever God is.

The Greek word for god is theos, it means deity. We can't define it as Elohim because the Bible calls Baal and Molech god or theos If we define god or theos as Elohim then that would present a problem because Baal and Molech are not Elohim
Butch...
Isn't this going back to the difference between god and God that we discussed?

Don't you agree ?

god ,,,, baal
God ,,,, the creator of all,,,The Almighty
 

wondering

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I agree. I would submit though that an angel, messenger, could be a man. I believe the apostles could be called angels or messengers of the Lord.
An Apostle cannot be called an angel.
Angels are messengers, as was Gabriel, but they are heavenly beings that serve God. This is the common understanding.

So an angel could be a messenger....
But not all messengers are Angels.

The prophets were also messengers, but not angels.
 

JLB

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YHVH is pronounced either Yahweh or Jehovah.

YHVH is not pronounced.

Man added vowels to YHVH.

The Hebrews would skip over it or just say Lord.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is Lord; YHVH, the Lord God?




JLB
 

Randy

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It seems like you are saying... because the Father is God, then Jesus can not be God.


Is this what you believe?




JLB
I believe the fullness of the Fathers Deity is in the Son. As I have stated. That Jesus is all that the Father is.

Because the Father is the "only" true God then Jesus can not be so.

It sounds like you believe Jesus was mistaken in stating that the Father is the only true God and His God. Is that what you believe?

I'll ask again. Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does that believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit?"
 
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