Butch5
Member
The Son didn't always exist. That's the whole point of being begotten. The Father alone is unbegotten. Let the Scriptures speak to you.
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An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB
- Thread starter theMadJW
- Start date
Butch5
Member
Begotten means born. I don't know why you're resisting that. Yes, the substance of the Son is eternal because it came out of God. However, when that substance was in God it wasn't the Son, it was God. It became the Son when it was begotten or born. Just like an egg is part of a woman. After it develops and is born it becomes it's own identity.
You're arguing against this and it is the core of the Christian faith. All you have to do is look at early church history and you'll see that.
You're talking about Jesus.
Here's a question for you (or anyone that cares to reply)...
When Jesus was on earth....
where was the 2nd Person of the Trinity?
Let the scriptures speak to me?
Which ones?
The ones that state that THE WORD was WITH GOD from the beginning....John 1:1
which, of course, God is eternal so there was no beginning....
but anyway....
You refuse to come to know what begotten means and yet you say you agree with the Nicene Creed.
NO...you do not.
As many Christians these days do not care to understand what it means or what the Trinity is all about.
The Nicene Creed, which you say you accept, states that HIS ONLY SON was BEGOTTEN NOT MADE.....
So, what does MADE mean?
What does BEGOTTEN mean?
They cannot both have the same definition..which is what you are doing.
The Son came out of God....right.
When that substance was in God it wasn't the Son...it was God.
It became the Son when it was begotten (just don't use the word BORN and it would be OK).
All the early church fathers spoke to the Divinity of Jesus....
Here's a statement by Ignatius of Antioch...please note that the Son entered into time...but was eternal.
Sometime late in the reign of the Emperor Trajan (98-117AD), a persecution broke out in Syria. Ignatius, leader of the Christians in the region’s capital city of Antioch, was apprehended and condemned to die for his faith in the Roman amphitheater. Ignatius was chained to a brutal squad of ten Roman soldiers and marched overland through Asia Minor (modern Turkey) to Troas where he embarked upon a ship that, after various stops, eventually brought him to Italy and martyrdom.
IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH’S LETTERS
Virtually all we know about Ignatius comes from seven brief letters penned while his party was stopped in Smyrna and later in Troas. Five of these letters were written to Churches in the province of Asia that had sent delegates to encourage Ignatius during his journey from Antioch to Rome. One was sent personally to Polycarp, bishop of Symrna, and the other is a moving appeal to the Church of Rome not to seek a commutation of his death sentence.Ignatius was the second bishop of Antioch, the place where the followers of Jesus were called Christians for the first time (Acts 11:26; Eusebius Eccl. Hist. 3.22.36 and Origen, Hom. 6 In Luc). The importance of Antioch as a center of apostolic Christianity cannot be overestimated. Antioch was the first center of outreach to the Gentiles (Acts 11:20) and the base from which Paul and Barnabas were sent out on their missionary journeys (Acts 13:2-3; 15: 35-41; 18:22-23). Peter, too, spent some time in Antioch prior to relocating in Rome (Gal 2:11). Ignatius is therefore an important testimony to the way in which the teaching of these apostles was remembered by this eminent Church.
APOSTOLIC TRADITION
Yet his letters reflect not only the apostolic tradition as preserved by Antioch; many of the churches to which he wrote, such as that of Ephesus, were also founded by those of the apostolic generation. So the letters witness to a common apostolic patrimony as understood and lived probably only a decade or two after the writing of John’s Gospel.JESUS AS GOD – THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST
Ignatius of Antioch speaks to a number of issues that have been disputed among Christians for centuries. Regarding the identity of Jesus Christ, St. Ignatius could not be more forthright in asserting his divinity. In the course of his seven letters he explicitly calls Jesus “God” (theos) a total of sixteen times (e.g., Eph. inscr, 15:3, 18:2; Ro. inscr , 3:3, Smyr. 10:1). There is no question of his meaning; he does not call Jesus God in a loose or merely honorific sense. Ignatius affirms that Christ is the invisible, Timeless (achronos) one, by nature incapable of suffering, who becomes visible and vulnerable to suffering through his human birth in time (Poly. 3:2). To call Christ “timeless” means that he cannot be the first and greatest created spirit, as Arius claimed in the fourth century and as the Jehovah’s Witnesses still maintain today. Rather, two hundred years before Constantine and the Council of Nicaea, Ignatius teaches that Christ is eternal, above time and all creation, God in the full sense of the term.source: https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/ignatius-antioch-marcellino-dambrosio/
As you must know, Arius' teachings were not accepted by the church.
Butch5
Member
No it's not. The heavens and the earth were made. The Son was born. All you have to do is look up the word beget.
Yeah, let the Scriptures speak. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says there is one God in 3 persons. That idea isn't found among the early Christians either. We don't find that idea until the fifth century. The idea comes from people who didn't understand the Scriptures correctly. We are told plainly in Scripture that the Father and Son are both Deity. We are also shown that they are two separate beings. Those are clear in Scripture. There is no 3 in 1 in Scripture. It's the product of the minds of men.
Butch5
Member
Again, you're giving me someone's interpretation of Ignaitus. What someone thinks Ignaitus believed is irrelevant. What did Ignatius believe? I can tell you he believed that the Son was begotten before all worlds. Again, begotten. That means born. Look up the word beget.
All the early fathers believed in a crude version of the Trinity.
I can't post the direct statements right now.
I'm linking what I know to be true.
If you can post Ignatius saying that the Son was created before all worlds,,,please post it.
And I don't really need to look up the word beget....
I happen to really really know what it means.
It does not mean born and it does not mean created.
If you care to, you could read the following.
You will NOT get the meaning of begotten from a dictionary.
What Does It Mean That Jesus Is God’s Only Begotten Son?
The phrase “only begotten” has been ammunition for false teachers since at least the fourth century at the Council of Nicea.
www.str.org
What Does Begotten Mean? Bible Definition and References
What is Begotten in the Bible? Study the meaning with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references of Begotten throughout the Bible.
www.biblestudytools.com
What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? What does the word begotten mean in the original Greek of the New Testament?
www.gotquestions.org
The Son of man was testified to as the Word of life that appeared on earth.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete.
Butch5
Member
No, all of the Fathers didn't believe in a Trinity. I gave you Tertullians words, who coined the term for Christianity and he clearly believed that the Father and Son were two different beings. That shows that he didn't believe in this 3 in 1 concept.All the early fathers believed in a crude version of the Trinity.
I can't post the direct statements right now.
I'm linking what I know to be true.
If you can post Ignatius saying that the Son was created before all worlds,,,please post it.
And I don't really need to look up the word beget....
I happen to really really know what it means.
It does not mean born and it does not mean created.
If you care to, you could read the following.
You will NOT get the meaning of begotten from a dictionary.
What Does It Mean That Jesus Is God’s Only Begotten Son?
The phrase “only begotten” has been ammunition for false teachers since at least the fourth century at the Council of Nicea.
What Does Begotten Mean? Bible Definition and References
What is Begotten in the Bible? Study the meaning with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references of Begotten throughout the Bible.
What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? What does the word begotten mean in the original Greek of the New Testament?www.gotquestions.org
Sure, I can post the words of Ignatius.
Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians
Chapter 11. — I write these things to warn you.
Short VersionThese things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that ye attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ, who is our hope, from which may no one of you ever be turned aside.
Long version
These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father’s glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works. He who knows these things with a full assurance, and believes them, is happy; even as ye are now the lovers of God and of Christ, in the full assurance of our hope, from which may no one of us ever be turned aside!
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Now, there are those who reject the long version as spurious. If we accept it, it shows that Ignatius did believe that the Son was begotten and that the Father is the one true God.
Regarding the beget, you're trying to define an English word based on the Greek text. That's backwards. The English word means to be born. If you want to argue that the Greek word doesn't mean beget, that's another issue. However, the definition of the English word is not subject to the meaning of the Greek word.
Regarding the article, the author starts of with a false premise. Here is his premise.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, and other cults, have taken this to mean that Jesus was literally begotten. If Jesus was begotten, then he is a created being. Therefore, he cannot be God.
Firstly, imagine taking a statement literally. What crazy concept. So, right off the bat he rejects a literal understanding. Why do you suppose that is? Probably because it doesn't fit his beliefs. Then he says, "if Jesus was begotten then he is a created being" Now he's take the word begotten which means to be born and changes the meaning to being created. That's a fallacy right there. Then he concludes that being created excludes one from being God. Yet the word theos simply means deity and the Bible calls Baal and Molech gods. They are created yet the Bible calls them god, thus being created does not prevent one from being called god. There are at least three errors in reasoning in just those three sentences.
Also, my argument is not based on monogenes. I didn't even mention John 3:16. I posted Paul's words.
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Col. 1:12-15 KJV)
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Ps. 2:7 KJV)
אֲסַפְּרָ֗ה אֶֽ֫ל חֹ֥ק יְֽהוָ֗ה אָמַ֨ר אֵלַ֥י בְּנִ֥י אַ֑תָּה אֲ֜נִ֗י הַיּ֥וֹם יְלִדְתִּֽיךָ׃ (Ps. 2:7 WTT)
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.(Acts 13:33 KJV)
[τι ταύτην ὁ θεὸς ἐκπεπλήρωκεν τοῖς τέκνοις [αὐτῶν] ἡμῖν ἀναστήσας Ἰησοῦν ὡς καὶ ἐν τῷ ψαλμῷ γέγραπται τῷ δευτέρῳ· υἱός μου εἶ σύ, ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε. (Acts 13:33 BGT)
The Hebrew word here translated begotten means to be born. Likewise when Peter quotes this in Greek he uses a Greek word that means to be born. It's really not in question.
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Butch5
Member
Ignatius to the Tarsians, Chter 6
Nor is He a mere man, by whom and in whom all things were made; for “all things were made by Him.” “When He made the heaven, I was present with Him; and I was there with Him, forming [the world along with Him], and He rejoiced in me daily.” And how could a mere man be addressed in such words as these: “Sit Thou at My right hand?” And how, again, could such an one declare: “Before Abraham was, I am?” And, “Glorify Me with Thy glory which I had before the world was?” What man could ever say, “I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me?” And of what man could it be said, “He was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not?” How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And in another place, “The Lord created Me, the beginning of His ways, for His ways, for His works. Before the world did He found Me, and before all the hills did He beget Me.”[10]
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Here's a quote from Justin Martyr.
Dialog with Trypho, Chapter 61
“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: ‘If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established. Before all the hills He begets me. God made the country, and the desert, and the highest inhabited places under the sky. When He made ready the heavens, I was along with Him, and when He set up His throne on the winds: when He made the high clouds strong, and the springs of the deep safe, when He made the foundations of the earth, I was with Him arranging. I was that in which He rejoiced; daily and at all times I delighted in His countenance, because He delighted in the finishing of the habitable world, and delighted in the sons of men. Now, therefore, O son, hear me. Blessed is the man who shall listen to me, and the mortal who shall keep my ways, watching daily at my doors, observing the posts of my ingoings. For my outgoings are the outgoings of life, and [my] will has been prepared by the Lord. But they who sin against me, trespass against their own souls; and they who hate me love death.’[6]
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Here is a quote from Hyppolytus.
Extant Writings and Fragments of Hyppolytus, Part 2.
He showed all power given by the Father to the Son, who is ordained Lord of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and Judge of all: of things in heaven, because He was born, the Word of God, before all (ages); and of things on earth, because He became man in the midst of men, to re-create our Adam through Himself; and of things under the earth, because He was also reckoned among the dead, preaching the Gospel to the souls of the saints, (and) by death overcoming death.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Chapter 6. — Continuation.
Nor is He a mere man, by whom and in whom all things were made; for “all things were made by Him.” “When He made the heaven, I was present with Him; and I was there with Him, forming [the world along with Him], and He rejoiced in me daily.” And how could a mere man be addressed in such words as these: “Sit Thou at My right hand?” And how, again, could such an one declare: “Before Abraham was, I am?” And, “Glorify Me with Thy glory which I had before the world was?” What man could ever say, “I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me?” And of what man could it be said, “He was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not?” How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And in another place, “The Lord created Me, the beginning of His ways, for His ways, for His works. Before the world did He found Me, and before all the hills did He beget Me.”[10]
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Here's a quote from Justin Martyr.
Dialog with Trypho, Chapter 61
Chapter 61 — Wisdom is begotten of the Father, as fire from fire.
“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: ‘If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established. Before all the hills He begets me. God made the country, and the desert, and the highest inhabited places under the sky. When He made ready the heavens, I was along with Him, and when He set up His throne on the winds: when He made the high clouds strong, and the springs of the deep safe, when He made the foundations of the earth, I was with Him arranging. I was that in which He rejoiced; daily and at all times I delighted in His countenance, because He delighted in the finishing of the habitable world, and delighted in the sons of men. Now, therefore, O son, hear me. Blessed is the man who shall listen to me, and the mortal who shall keep my ways, watching daily at my doors, observing the posts of my ingoings. For my outgoings are the outgoings of life, and [my] will has been prepared by the Lord. But they who sin against me, trespass against their own souls; and they who hate me love death.’[6]
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Here is a quote from Hyppolytus.
Extant Writings and Fragments of Hyppolytus, Part 2.
He showed all power given by the Father to the Son, who is ordained Lord of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and Judge of all: of things in heaven, because He was born, the Word of God, before all (ages); and of things on earth, because He became man in the midst of men, to re-create our Adam through Himself; and of things under the earth, because He was also reckoned among the dead, preaching the Gospel to the souls of the saints, (and) by death overcoming death.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
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The Son has always existed, and is uncreated as God.
All things were created by Him.
Begotten does not mean created.
JLB
He is the first born of all creation.
Firstborn means firstbegotten.
He is begotten of God the Father, and always existed, as He came forth from the Father.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. John 8:42
God the Father is uncreated and has always existed, in which everything within Him is eternal and uncreated.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17
Jesus Christ the Son, created all “things”.
He is not a “thing” that was created, but He is before all things in which all “things” were created by Him.
JLB
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Please explain what this means?
It makes no sense.
His being begotten denotes His existence was always with the Father.
How can Jesus be the only begotten Son of God, but have “some other” existence outside of God.
Even angels who are sons of God are made from the substance of God.
In the natural , even a son that is begotten from a father has his beginning from the father who begets him, otherwise the son can not claim he is his fathers son.
Your theory is borderline blasphemy.
It makes Jesus out to be at best a created being.
Sounds like a JW or Mormon teaching.
JLB
Again,,,there is not ONE GOD IN 3 PERSONS....
There are 3 PERSONS IN ONE GOD.
We've gone through this already.
I explained the difference, which, actually, should require no explanation because the way you state it, there are 3 Gods and not just 1.
The scriptures speak of God Father, God Son, God The Holy Spirit.
I mentioned Matthew 28:19 JESUS said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I mentioned the Baptism of Jesus when all 3 were present.
1 John 5:6-7 speaks of the Father, the Son and the Spirit
Acts 2:33 mentions God Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Himself
John 14:26 JESUS mentions the Father and the Holy Spirit
It's important to understand that the Trinity was not immediately understood right after the death of Christ...
but the writings of the Early Fathers picked up on this important theme and clarified it at the Council of Nicea when Arius was declaring Jesus to be only a human, and not God.
If Jesus, as THE SON and 2nd person of the Trinity was born...then Arius was right.
Jesus was born....
THE SON was begotten.
The bible was written in Greek...not in English.
Why do we often "go to the Greek" except when it doesn't suit us?
I've given both verses and links....
If Jesus was born...then He is not eternal and God is eternal...
The Bible tells us that Jesus is the “only begotten” Son of God: he is unique in his class; there is no other person who shares this exact same relationship with God the Father. Jesus is the begotten Son; we are adopted children.
Scripture uses the terms “Father” and “Son” to describe in human terms that eternal, mysterious relationship, and that is indeed right. But it is wrong to suppose that our human ability to understand what it is to be a father or a son would fully and completely describe the relationship between the first and the second persons of the Holy Trinity.
Begotten describes a relationship...not a birth.
Butch5
Member
You explained it in your post. Jesus is the substance of the Father. Yet, He came out of the Father. Just like a father begets a Son, they are not the same being. Adam begat Abel, they were two men not one, yet Abel was of the same substance as Adam. A good example is one the early Christians used. That of fire. A fire can kindle another fire and yet the first fire is not diminished in any way. The second fire is the same substance as the first but it is now separate from the first fire and exists as a second fire.
Again....
The Son
The 2nd Person of the Trinity
IS THE LOGOS.
Logos means the actual word of God...it's what God thinks and speaks.
Logos also means the mind of God.
Jesus is THE WORD, THE LOGOS, of God. The Son, The 2nd Person.
God's Word always existed....
God's "mind" always existed....
It was never created.
Jesus is the incarnate WORD OF GOD. (in Person form)
The Word always existed.
In the beginning was THE WORD
and The Word was WITH GOD
and the Word WAS GOD. John 1:1
and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us John 1:14
No man has seen God at any time,
the only begotten God, who is in the bossom of the Father...
He (Jesus) has explained Him (God). John 1:18
You didn't answer my question.
I ask it because I can't understand your position.
The above sounds OK....
But sometimes you make it sound like The Son was created.
Where was the 2nd person of the Trinity while Jesus was on earth?
The 2nd person was in heaven...where he belongs. He did not abandon His post.
The Word was still with God and the Logos was with God.