An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB

[Butch5]

I just fell upon this.

Are you saying Jesus had a beginning?
Do you mean THE SON or do you mean Jesus, the man and God (the hypostatic union).

The Son. Paul said He is the first born of creation. The Son prophesied through David speaking the words of God saying, 'you are my Son, today have I begotten you'

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

1 Tim. 3:16 God "manifest in the flesh" KJV​

As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he” (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who” (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), “who,” or “which.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”).Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?


Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts .....” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp.696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes: “The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott and Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

“He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

It's real simple.
They're all heathens.

 

[Consecrated Life]

The Son. Paul said He is the first born of creation. The Son prophesied through David speaking the words of God saying, 'you are my Son, today have I begotten you'

You get more mixed up as you go along Butch .

That "day" where the " begotten " Son assumes His rightful place as " King upon my holy hill of Zion " has not yet arrived .
And he has yet to break earth's heathen rebellion with a " rod of Iron "
This psalm is the prophesy of Jesus ruling on earth .
In case you have not noticed the heathen are still running the earth in 2021 ?
And while we are at it if he is only " begotten" when establishes Himself upon Zion's hill, as you indicate
what was He when came here the first time to be Crucified ?
" Begotten" as well ?
So " Begotten" twice is it ?
Begotten 2.0 maybe when He comes again ?

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[Butch5]

You get more mixed up as you go along Butch .

That "day" where the " begotten " Son assumes His rightful place as " King upon my holy hill of Zion " has not yet arrived .
And he has yet to break earth's heathen rebellion with a " rod of Iron "
This psalm is the prophesy of Jesus ruling on earth .
In case you have not noticed the heathen are still running the earth in 2021 ?
And while we are at it if he is only " begotten" when establishes Himself upon Zion's hill, as you indicate
what was He when came here the first time to be Crucified ?
" Begotten" as well ?
So " Begotten" twice is it ?
Begotten 2.0 maybe when He comes again ?

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Like I said, when you get an argument let me know.

 

[Randy]

See John 5:30
30“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Jesus only speaks what He hears the Father speak.

John 12:49
49For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.

God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. But Jesus is a being with His own mind ,will, and spirit. The message He spoke was not His own but He can speak on His own. You think every conversation and dialogue Jesus ever had was the Fathers message? His works and judgments were in harmony with the Father for sure. The Father has made Jesus the judge.

 

[Randy]

Yes, and the Nicene Creed states that Jesus came out of God.

The Father would state, "Jesus is MY Firstborn"
Jesus, (His Spirit), has a beginning at some point in history before the world began. The fullness was not formed but gifted and from the will of another. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" The only other at that point in history was the Father. Jesus also testified it was the Father living in Him. All the fullness of the Fathers Deity dwells in His firstborn. And in Jesus and through Jesus and for Jesus all things were created. Things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things that have been created. It was the Father in Jesus doing His work just as in the Son of Man.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

The Father is the one in the Son acting or working. They are one.
The Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. The image of the invisible God. All that the Father is. Mighty God yet Gods Firstborn. (Son)
The Father has and always will be the only true God and Jesus's God.

And Jesus has purchased us for God by His blood and made us to be a kingdom of priests to serve His God and Father. Worshipping the Father in Spirit and in truth.

It has always been the church, (assembly), of the firstborn.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him.

God didn't make David His firstborn. He appointed His firstborn to the line of David which fulfills the forever promise to David as Jesus is forever. Jesus had asked whose Son is the Christ.

Psalm 89
27And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,(God appoints His firstborn to David's line)

the most exalted of the kings of the earth. (the Christ is the most exalted)

28I will maintain my love to him forever, (Jesus is forever)

and my covenant with him will never fail.

29I will establish his line forever, (forever is greater than 10,000 trillion years- for perspective)

his throne as long as the heavens endure.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Son. Paul said He is the first born of creation. The Son prophesied through David speaking the words of God saying, 'you are my Son, today have I begotten you'

What do you believe BEGOTTEN means?
What does it mean that TODAY I have BEGOTTEN you?

I really dislike t his word BEGOTTEN...it sounds all wrong in th e English language.
I think we should be really clear on what it means.....

The SON, the 2nd person of the Trinity always existed.
Do you agree?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Yes, and besides Jesus was even forced to admit that as a person He, just like all of us, is not a good person.
His no good nature a testament to the fact that He was not God

Mar 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[Butch5]

What do you believe BEGOTTEN means?
What does it mean that TODAY I have BEGOTTEN you?

I really dislike t his word BEGOTTEN...it sounds all wrong in th e English language.
I think we should be really clear on what it means.....

The SON, the 2nd person of the Trinity always existed.
Do you agree?

It means to be born. No I don't agree that He always existed. If He did then He wasn't begotten.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, and the Nicene Creed states that Jesus came out of God.

The SON came out of God.
The 2nd person of the Trinity came out of God.
Jesus, as the LOGOS, always existed.
Jesus, as the man/God,,,came into existence (incarnated) 2,000 years ago.
Could we agree on this?

BTW,,,I'm sure you know that there were different Creeds in 381 and 425...but the Nicene Creed was declared to be
the correct one.

 

[GodsGrace]

It means to be born. No I don't agree that He always existed. If He did then He wasn't begotten.

Begotten does NOT mean to be born.
You're very knowledgeable...I'm rather shocked that you think this.

You said you agree with the Nicene Creed:

Here's the second part of it:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.


When you and I were born...we were MADE.
The Nicene Creed states that Jesus was
BEGOTTEN...NOT MADE...

So He was NOT BORN...
He was begotten.

The Son was with God from t he beginning of time.
John 1:1
The Son was THE WORD --- THE LOGOS.

Logos means the WORD from the mind of God.
Was there a time when God did not have a word in Him...
or a mind?

No.

Begotten means that something comes from something that always existed.
The Son is ONE is BEING (in nature) with The Father.

You have a glass of water.
You take out 10 drops.
Those drops were begotten from the water in the glass.
They always existed...but have been taken out in some way...
Same with the Son....

The Word and the Mind are the Logos....
The Logos always existed....
Then the word became flesh.
This is the incarnation that John speaks of in John 1:1, 2, 14 -- and the world became flesh and dwelt among us. The only begotten of the Father...

 

[Randy]

The SON came out of God.
The 2nd person of the Trinity came out of God.
Jesus, as the LOGOS, always existed.
Jesus, as the man/God,,,came into existence (incarnated) 2,000 years ago.
Could we agree on this?

BTW,,,I'm sure you know that there were different Creeds in 381 and 425...but the Nicene Creed was declared to be
the correct one.

Coming out of God suggests a point in history that event took place.
Someone who has always existed couldn't be from anyone else. The Father could not be from any other being. Nor the Son if they always existed and always were God. And lets not forget there is only one God who "Jesus" states is the Father.
I think Paul's creed is the correct one.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

I suggest if possible to put the most weight on Jesus's words.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[GodsGrace]

Coming out of God suggests a point in history that event took place.
Someone who has always existed couldn't be from anyone else. The Father could not be from any other being. Nor the Son if they always existed and always were God. And lets not forget there is only one God who "Jesus" states is the Father.
I think Paul's creed is the correct one.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

I suggest if possible to put the most weight on Jesus's words.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

An event did take place....
God Father "separated" the Son from Himself.

Paul said there is ONE GOD, FROM Whom ALL THINGS COME.....
and ONE Lord THROUGH Whom all things came.

What's the difference?

And how would you explain the Trinity?

 

[GodsGrace]

God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. But Jesus is a being with His own mind ,will, and spirit. The message He spoke was not His own but He can speak on His own. You think every conversation and dialogue Jesus ever had was the Fathers message? His works and judgments were in harmony with the Father for sure. The Father has made Jesus the judge.

I was agreeing with you and offering further scripture....
I also agree with the above...

 

[Randy]

An event did take place....
God Father "separated" the Son from Himself.

Paul said there is ONE GOD, FROM Whom ALL THINGS COME.....
and ONE Lord THROUGH Whom all things came.

What's the difference?

And how would you explain the Trinity?

That's a beginning of the Son isn't it?

One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ as the creed. Jesus was NOT separated BUT His spirit was formed as the First of Gods works. The fullness was not formed but gifted. The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. From the will of another. As I have stated its the Fathers Deity that dwells in Jesus not Jesus's Deity. They are one in that manner and in that manner Jesus, the SON, is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. The image of the invisible God . I also state all things from the Father and all things through the Son.

So this question, "Is Jesus God?"
I answer thus:
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Now I also state the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is the Spirit of my heavenly Father who is the only true God.

That's my understanding of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's a beginning of the Son isn't it?

Not if the Son was always with the Father and part of Him.
If you believe the Son has a beginning....then He is a created being...as the angels are.
Would it then be right to call the Son....God?
Since only God did not have a beginning.

Did you see my example of the glass of water?
Same with the sun.
A beam of light separates from the sun.
Did it become created?
Or did it exist always just as the sun existed always?

One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ as the creed. Jesus was NOT separated BUT His spirit was formed as the First of Gods works.

What?
Which Creed?
Could you post it please?

You may know that there were problems with creeds.
In trying to come to terms with understanding who Jesus was,,,the Fathers of the church considered different words to explain it.

The fullness was not formed but gifted. The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. From the will of another. As I have stated its the Fathers Deity that dwells in Jesus not Jesus's Deity.

Jesus IS deity.
Was Thomas wrong when he said:
My Lord
and My God...
John 20:28

Do you suppose the Apostle didn't really know what he was stating?
Where does it state in the NT that the fullness was gifted?

They are one in that manner and in that manner Jesus, the SON, is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. The image of the invisible God . I also state all things from the Father and all things through the Son.

This I agree with.
This is what the incarnation means:
To see God....He becomes visible, He is the image of God.

Father is the Creator
Jesus does the Creating...
This is right.

So this question, "Is Jesus God?"
I answer thus:

You answer thus?
Who are you...Thomas Aquinas?
LOL

I answer YES.

He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Is that a typo? You say:
No, He has always been the Son???
Please clarify.

Now I also state the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is the Spirit of my heavenly Father who is the only true God.

That's my understanding of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit is not a person?
Then there are not 3 but only 2? (Deities).
So what is the TRINITY (3) all about?

This is not an easy subject matter...

 

[daninthelionsden]

Yes, and besides Jesus was even forced to admit that as a person He, just like all of us, is not a good person.
His no good nature a testament to the fact that He was not God

Mar 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

OR, He was stating He is God. Like He would repeatedly ask "And Who do you say that I AM?"

 

[Randy]

Not if the Son was always with the Father and part of Him.
If you believe the Son has a beginning....then He is a created being...as the angels are.
Would it then be right to call the Son....God?
Since only God did not have a beginning.

Did you see my example of the glass of water?
Same with the sun.
A beam of light separates from the sun.
Did it become created?
Or did it exist always just as the sun existed always?


What?
Which Creed?
Could you post it please?

You may know that there were problems with creeds.
In trying to come to terms with understanding who Jesus was,,,the Fathers of the church considered different words to explain it.



Jesus IS deity.
Was Thomas wrong when he said:
My Lord
and My God...
John 20:28

Do you suppose the Apostle didn't really know what he was stating?
Where does it state in the NT that the fullness was gifted?


This I agree with.
This is what the incarnation means:
To see God....He becomes visible, He is the image of God.

Father is the Creator
Jesus does the Creating...
This is right.


You answer thus?
Who are you...Thomas Aquinas?
LOL

I answer YES.

Is that a typo? You say:
No, He has always been the Son???
Please clarify.


So the Holy Spirit is not a person?
Then there are not 3 but only 2? (Deities).
So what is the TRINITY (3) all about?

This is not an easy subject matter...

There is one deity the Father. The Deity in the Son is the Fathers. The Spirit of God is the Fathers. He states so. (Fathers Promise) The Spirit Jesus was baptized with was the Fathers
Jesus's spirit was formed by the Father. Gods firstborn. The fullness of the Fathers Deity that dwells in Him was not created but gifted. As Paul wrote , "the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" The name Jesus "inherited" from the one He calls His God is God. The Father is the one who glorifies Jesus. Clearly Jesus received from the Father. The Father has not received from any other being. Its His throne He sits on. He has given His Son a place on His throne. The host of heaven declare the one on the throne as God and Jesus as the lamb of God and Gods Christ.
So you think Jesus and the Father split like a amoeba?

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. He has always been the Son.

"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

Fathers promise- in the last days I will pour out My Spirit.
The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father. acts 2, eastern orthodox church


Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how then does that believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"?

The Father sent Jesus
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

Jesus did speak of the Spirit as another the Father does not.

The Father sent Jesus
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations

The Spirit proceeds from the Father but is given through the Son and sent in Jesus's name.
“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth

Jesus's spirit is not divine as the Fathers is. The fullness of the Divine Deity that dwells in Him is the Fathers. Apart from the Father He could do nothing Divine. The works He performed show the Father is in Him and they are one in that manner.

Matt 10
19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.



Its Yes and no.
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son - Gods firstborn and the firstborn of all things created ,given supremacy in all things, before all things.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is one deity the Father. The Deity in the Son is the Fathers. The Spirit of God is the Fathers. He states so. (Fathers Promise) The Spirit Jesus was baptized with was the Fathers
Jesus's spirit was formed by the Father. Gods firstborn. The fullness of the Fathers Deity that dwells in Him was not created but gifted. As Paul wrote , "the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" The name Jesus "inherited" from the one He calls His God is God. The Father is the one who glorifies Jesus. Clearly Jesus received from the Father. The Father has not received from any other being. Its His throne He sits on. He has given His Son a place on His throne. The host of heaven declare the one on the throne as God and Jesus as the lamb of God and Gods Christ.
So you think Jesus and the Father split like a amoeba?

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. He has always been the Son.

"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

Fathers promise- in the last days I will pour out My Spirit.
The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father. acts 2, eastern orthodox church


Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how then does that believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"?

The Father sent Jesus
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

Jesus did speak of the Spirit as another the Father does not.

The Father sent Jesus
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations

The Spirit proceeds from the Father but is given through the Son and sent in Jesus's name.
“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth

Jesus's spirit is not divine as the Fathers is. The fullness of the Divine Deity that dwells in Him is the Fathers. Apart from the Father He could do nothing Divine. The works He performed show the Father is in Him and they are one in that manner.

Matt 10
19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.



Its Yes and no.
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son - Gods firstborn and the firstborn of all things created ,given supremacy in all things, before all things.

Before I reply to this I have one question:
Are you speaking about Jesus or are you speaking about The Son of God or The 2nd Person of the Trinity?

 

[Randy]

Before I reply to this I have one question:
Are you speaking about Jesus or are you speaking about The Son of God or The 2nd Person of the Trinity?

In what regard as I am speaking of Jesus.
The Son who was, His spirit, was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him and as that Son testified the Father was living in Him. That is the Son who always was that I speak of. His Spirit was in that body. The Fathers Deity was in Jesus.

The works Jesus performed testify not that He was God but that the Father (God) was in Him and they are one. Because if God wasn't in Him He could do nothing. That is how Nicodemus knew Jesus came from God.

Maybe I don't understand the context you seek.