And these signs shall follow them that believe;

[eddif]

I've been following this and find it really interesting. Someone had something about if the word was water or not, so I did a little checking and found a scripture that may refer to this. It's in Ephesians 5:26

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,.../

I went to the Greek for water and word and found that the water is water, and the word...may or may not be the scriptures, but words as an utterance. So I don't know if this helps, but it is in there. Not about baptism but does say that the word washes or cleanses us, probably our heart I would think.

I like this discussion.

When God created water, he used the characteristics of water to speak hidden secrets.
God spoke water into existence, and water speaks because God created it.

Metaphysics (greater than physical) just exists. Meta is a Greek word / concept.

A spiritual description is strenghtened by a physical thing that carries a hidden spiritual meaning.

You done good Edward.

eddif

 

[eddif]

And these signs shall follow them that believe.

Luke 2:12 KJV
And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Genesis 1:14 KJV
Then God said, "Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them be signs to mark the seasons, days, and years.

Was it ultimately about time? There comes a time, when time shall be no more.

Galatians 4:9 KJV
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Today a solar eclipse occurs.
The three hour darkness on the cross is the reality of the Father forsaking Jesus.

Do we understand the difference in shadows and realities?

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE POWER THAT REGENERATES US not water

So you do not agree with Paul.
OK. He got it wrong and you have corrected him.

.I DO NOT HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU DOCTRINE NOR DO I .

It's not my doctrine.
I just pointed out that it is the teaching of scripture and that it was clearly understood to be so by the most ancient documents of the Church.
You are perfectly free to make up your own doctrine.

i am still saved sanctified and justified the Blood of Christ

I did not suggest otherwise.

 

[Jim Parker]

he might of been a good man but i read my Bible

Justin Martyr "might have been a good man."
sigh
He was the church's first apologist.
He was martyred for being a Christian during the reign of Nero.
He is one of the giants of Christianity.
And you are willing to concede that he might have been a good man.
How magnanimous of you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Mississippi redneck

Where?
My dad was from Vicksburg.

 

[Jim Parker]

Meanwhile, back at the original post:

Mark 16:14-18. 17. And these signs shall follow them that believe;
14. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1. Go preach the Gospel to the whole world.
2. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. :amen
3. Whoever does not believe shall be damned. 2
4. These signs will follow believers: :yes
A. They will cast out demons in Jesus' name. √ (seen that one)
B. They will speak in other tongues. √ (seen that one)
C. Serpents and poison won't hurt them. √ (I don't handle snakes or drink strychnine on purpose but I've seen someone recover from a deadly sting through prayer)
D. They will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. √ (seen that one)

 

[Roro1972]

Meanwhile, back at the original post:

Mark 16:14-18. 17. And these signs shall follow them that believe;
14. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1. Go preach the Gospel to the whole world.
2. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. :amen
3. Whoever does not believe shall be damned. 2
4. These signs will follow believers: :yes
A. They will cast out demons in Jesus' name. √ (seen that one)
B. They will speak in other tongues. √ (seen that one)
C. Serpents and poison won't hurt them. √ (I don't handle snakes or drink strychnine on purpose but I've seen someone recover from a deadly sting through prayer)
D. They will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. √ (seen that one)

about the B. tongues originally were Disciples speaking in other human tongues that they did not know.
Ive heard some speak and it is not other human language at all; others now say they are speaking in Angelic tongues?????????????????????.

 

[Jim Parker]

about the B. tongues originally were Disciples speaking in other human tongues that they did not know.

Yeah, that's what happened at Acts 2 but that's not the only meaning of "tongues."
1Co 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
1Co 14:14-15 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
Not everyone has the gift of tongues. - 1Co 12:30 (In spite of what some Pentecostal groups insist.[been there])

iakov the meshuganeh

 

[ezra]

Justin Martyr "might have been a good man."
sigh
He was the church's first apologist.
He was martyred for being a Christian during the reign of Nero.
He is one of the giants of Christianity.
And you are willing to concede that he might have been a good man.
How magnanimous of you.

first off i am not a big Church historian i had no idea that it was a requirement to be a student of the Bible 2nd off do not address me in this manner. a simple background info of who this man was would have been suffice . 3rd none of this has any thing to do with regeneration by water .maybe you should read this https://bible.org/article/regeneration-justification-and-sanctification

take the rhetoric down and lets discuss this . there where many who was martyred he might have been one of the giants my preference of giants would be JESUS peter Paul Matthew mark Luke john so if i might ask while waiting for this chill out .. so are you a college Graduate ..you like tossing big words around . i am just a h.s grad that is coming up in holy ghost school of hard knocks if i were to guess you are of the Pentecostal back ground..i have many fiends that are AOG Pentecostal i even have a lady Friend sister in the Lord who is a woman preacher . we get along just fine.. no barbs of doctrine issues . i like a good hardy discussion not a insult of my education

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 14:3 KJV
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

How do we get er done?

1. Just flat out speak their language.
2. Tongues with interpretation.

What possible reason do we have for insisting on our way. Too many wrists get sprained / broken patting ourselves on our own back (elbow / shoulder problems too).

A person speaking in tongues and interpreting gets to understand and speak in the understanding of others.

Knowledge
Wisdom
Understanding

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[OzSpen]

So, if someone were to say, "I firmly believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He died for my sins but I refuse to be baptized.", then that hypothetical person would not be saved. He would be like the demons who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the most high, but refuse to submit to His lordship.

Jim,

That makes Generals William and Catherine Booth, founders of the Salvation Army, like the demons. It means that those saved through the preaching of the Gospel by the Salvos and who become soldiers in an Army Corps are like the demons.

The Salvation Army does not practise baptism or the Lord's Supper. I know because my wife was a Salvation Army lassie.

Come on, mate!

Oz

 

[Roro1972]

I Corinthians 14:3 KJV
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

How do we get er done?

1. Just flat out speak their language.
2. Tongues with interpretation.

What possible reason do we have for insisting on our way. Too many wrists get sprained / broken patting ourselves on our own back (elbow / shoulder problems too).

A person speaking in tongues and interpreting gets to understand and speak in the understanding of others.

Knowledge
Wisdom
Understanding

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I believe it is wrong for one to interrupt his on speaking in tongues.

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 12:17 KJV
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole werehearing, where were the smelling?

If we were all kidneys where would the glycogen production be.

If we had no Pentecostals where would the spiritual gifts be. If we had no ancient Baptists where would be the hell fire and brimstone sermons be.

We make up the body of our Lord. There are differing needs in the body. We are severally members of that body.
If we have signs of kidney function, then there must be a kidney or two at work.

Skinning squirrels after a hunt teach all this. LOL

eddif

 

[eddif]

I believe it is wrong for one to interrupt his on speaking in tongues.

I Corinthians 14:13 KJV
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

If you are praying in tongues, and there is none to interpret do you not remain silent and go into your closet?

Do you not then pray to interpret and resume praying in tongues? Do you not interrupt yourself till you achieve your goal?

Where do you think interpreters come from? I think some are toungue talkers that interrupted themselves until the ability to hear in their language developed. When you hear in your own language you can share with others of your language. A prophet hears in his own language. A tongue talker hears / speaks first in another language, then prays to understand.

The scripture above is to be followed. Will everyone become an interpreter? Probably not, but the instruction is to seek that office.

Tradition and scripture do not necessarily agree. They should. No use in starting an argument over our differing individual selves. If I work for the good of the body and you work for the good of the body we will just have to pray we understand the other person, or just relax and do our different jobs.

Rednecks live so far away from others with skills needed, they have to pray for new skills.

eddif

 

[Roro1972]

I Corinthians 14:13 KJV
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

If you are praying in tongues, and there is none to interpret do you not remain silent and go into your closet?

Do you not then pray to interpret and resume praying in tongues? Do you not interrupt yourself till you achieve your goal?

Where do you think interpreters come from? I think some are toungue talkers that interrupted themselves until the ability to hear in their language developed. When you hear in your own language you can share with others of your language. A prophet hears in his own language. A tongue talker hears / speaks first in another language, then prays to understand.

The scripture above is to be followed. Will everyone become an interpreter? Probably not, but the instruction is to seek that office.

Tradition and scripture do not necessarily agree. They should. No use in starting an argument over our differing individual selves. If I work for the good of the body and you work for the good of the body we will just have to pray we understand the other person, or just relax and do our different jobs.

Rednecks live so far away from others with skills needed, they have to pray for new skills.

eddif

how did you know im a redneck? I was trying to hide it.

 

[eddif]

how did you know im a redneck? I was trying to hide it.

Actually I always try and direct my redneck comments to myself. After looking at you home state, I understand your comment.

Now that was a good dodge. Back to the issue of:
I Corinthians 14:28 KJV
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

If you speak a few words in tongues, and no one is getting it - - interrupt yourself and shut up.

Hey, I just mainly teach. I am not an authorized interpreter in the church I attend. They mostly would freak out at the first three words in tongues.

Do I speak in tongues? Yes . Do I spend a lot of time silent in church? Yes. A lot of times my lips are in tongues, but my mind is in English. I pour over scripture to see if it is right.

Spiritual gifts are a touchy subject. Signs that follow are not always real. Wizards mutter and chirp, and might be confused with tongue talkers. Discerning of spirits may be needed to find out who is who.

I am a redneck from Mississippi. How could I possibly know about all this?

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

first off i am not a big Church historian i had no idea that it was a requirement to be a student of the Bible

"Those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
By not being familiar with the history of the Church, particularly the early history, one can be unaware of the heretical teachings with which the early church was confronted. And, being unaware, it is easy to fall into the same error.
That's all.

do not address me in this manner. a simple background info of who this man was would have been suffice

What manner?

none of this has any thing to do with regeneration by water

astounding
The scriptures that speak of regeneration by water baptism have nothing to do with regeneration by water baptism.
Huh??

so are you a college Graduate

BA English, MA Psychology, MBA, MA Theology (Dumb Irishman! I didn't manage to get a PhD in something! )

i am just a h.s grad

Just?? That is nothing to look down upon. You probably have a better education than most Americans under age 30.

guess you are of the Pentecostal back ground.

Was a missionary with Pentecostal Holiness Church before I started reading the early church fathers. Now I'm Orthodox.
(Ortho-costal???)

insult of my education

That was not my intention.
Sorry it came across that way.

iakov the meshuganeh

 

[Jim Parker]

That makes Generals William and Catherine Booth, founders of the Salvation Army, like the demons. It means that those saved through the preaching of the Gospel by the Salvos and who become soldiers in an Army Corps are like the demons.

Did they all refuse to be baptized?
Or were they taught that baptism was unnecessary and passed that error along?
Apparently many people have been improperly taught that baptism is not necessary for a Christian but, that teaching would put the guilt for the error on the teacher, not the student. (Or so it seems to me.)
Jesus commanded that disciples be baptized. (Mat 28:19)
He said it is necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5)
Peter told the crowd at Pentecost to believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptized. (Acts 2:38)
Peter said that baptism saves us. (1Pet 3:21)
The book of Acts provides examples demonstrating that it was the standard procedure of the primitive Church.
The witness of the early church fathers demonstrate the importance of baptism.

It is perplexing to me that there is so much resistance from Christians to obeying Jesus' command to be baptized.
I can't imagine why anyone calling themselves a Christian would have any problem with, let alone be opposed to, obeying the command of Christ.
I do not understand it at all.

jim

 

[OzSpen]

Did they all refuse to be baptized?
Or were they taught that baptism was unnecessary and passed that error along?
Apparently many people have been improperly taught that baptism is not necessary for a Christian but, that teaching would put the guilt for the error on the teacher, not the student. (Or so it seems to me.)
Jesus commanded that disciples be baptized. (Mat 28:19)
He said it is necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5)
Peter told the crowd at Pentecost to believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptized. (Acts 2:38)
Peter said that baptism saves us. (1Pet 3:21)
The book of Acts provides examples demonstrating that it was the standard procedure of the primitive Church.
The witness of the early church fathers demonstrate the importance of baptism.

It is perplexing to me that there is so much resistance from Christians to obeying Jesus' command to be baptized.
I can't imagine why anyone calling themselves a Christian would have any problem with, let alone be opposed to, obeying the command of Christ.
I do not understand it at all.

jim

Jim,

This site says of the Salvation Army:

4. Baptism is Not Required

The Salvation Army believe baptism is unnecessary for salvation. Water Beach Salvation Army UK offered several reasons for this on the organization's website. The Salvation Army founders viewed baptism as a ritual some Christians use to replace having a genuine inward spiritual relationship with God.

However, Salvation Army members do have the right to become baptized in another church if they so desire. According to Water Beach Salvation, their primary requirement for membership is to ask God for forgiveness and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is their Savior (source).​

It's the teaching like you are giving - that baptism is necessary for salvation - that influenced the Salvos in their no-baptism position.

So, Salvation Army believers are "like the demons" in your view. I find that to be obnoxious. I know some fine Salvo believers who love Jesus with all their hearts, minds, souls and strength, but you want to state they are "like the demons". Please answer that one for me. Or, is this an hyperbole by you?

You stated: "He said it is necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5)". John 3:5 states: 'Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'".

You are drawing a long bow making "born of water" = you must be baptised in water to be born again. John 3:6 provides the meaning: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (ESV). Here Jesus is clear that "born of water" = "born of the flesh is flesh".


The meaning of the phrase, "born of water and the spirit" has generated lots of possible meanings, such as:

• It describes two births, physical vs spiritual birth. But there are no ancient sources that present the view that natural birth is from water. But the context is talking about one birth, ‘from above’, ‘born again’.

• Some think ‘water’ refers to Christian baptism. Such a view would not be relevant to Nicodemus (see John 3:10 and Jesus’ taking the Jews to task that they didn’t know what he was talking about). There is the added problem that baptismal regeneration (necessity of baptism for salvation) is not taught elsewhere in the NT. There is no believer + baptism to be saved. John 3:16 is clear: ‘For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life’. So here in John 3, we have confirmation that salvation is available to ‘whoever believes in [Jesus]’ and they ‘shall not perish but have eternal life’. It does not state that salvation is for those who believe and are baptised.

• Some want this ‘water’ to refer to John the Baptist’s baptism, a baptism of repentance.

• ‘Jesus is arguing against the ritual washings of the Essenes’ – a conservative group that promoted rituals. This is the group associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

• The most satisfactory conclusion, in my view, is that ‘born of water and the Spirit’ is influenced by three factors: (1) It is a parallel meaning to ‘born from above’ and so only one birth is in view – the born again, new birth. (2) A unity of water-spirit; (3) Jesus criticises Nicodemus (in 3:10) for not understanding these things, especially since he was ‘Israel’s teacher’. Note, Ezekiel 36:25-27. Nicodemus should have known this Scripture that demonstrates cleansing from impurity and transformation of the heart.

• Therefore, ‘born of water and spirit’ (drop the capital S) points to ‘a new begetting, a new birth that cleanses and renews, the eschatological cleansing and renewal promised by the Old Testament prophets’ (Carson 1991:195; many of the above points came from Carson 1991:191-195).

Oz

Work consulted
Carson, D A 1991. The Gospel according to John. Leicester, England / Grand Rapids, Michigan: Inter-Varsity Press / William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.