Angels Bringing False Gospels

[Pard]

Quote Pard: "Mohammad, the Muslim prophet, was given his false gospel from the angel Gabriel."

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Hi Pard

I have a question.

What ever gave you the idea that the angel Gabriel gave a false gospel ?

Well, we'd first have to assume Gabriel really did come down to Mohammad and speak to him... BUT, if we did assume this truly happened than all one would have to do to know Gabriel gave him a false gospel is look at my first post and the scripture I quoted in it...

 

[Pard]

If he really did come to Mohammad... I do not know why he would give a false revelation. Why did Lucifer fall? Why did Adam eat the apple? Why did Cain kill his brother over such a little thing? We cannot simply use a lack of motive (especially a lack of motive for a being we know virtually nothing about) as a reason he did not give a false revelation....

The second question I'll be happy to talk about in PM, but my purpose in this thread was to discuss that line Paul gave us, it was not meant to discuss the invalidity of Islam. There are plenty of threads, and plenty of others who do that

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Pard: "Mohammad, the Muslim prophet, was given his false gospel from the angel Gabriel."

-------------

Hi Pard

I have a question.

What ever gave you the idea that the angel Gabriel gave a false gospel ?

Well, we'd first have to assume Gabriel really did come down to Mohammad and speak to him... BUT, if we did assume this truly happened than all one would have to do to know Gabriel gave him a false gospel is look at my first post and the scripture I quoted in it...

Hi Pard :

I read your OP, and this verse does not say that Gabriel came down from heaven. So I believe that you are assuming, or someone put that suggestive thought in your mind.

So, could you please answer my question ?

 

[jasoncran]

in christianity the apostle is the highest of office, and paul was a man that operated in the gifts of the spirit.

that being said, while i dont want to deviate into that gift thing. prophecy can be done by a layman if the spirit moves.

that ot style prophet is done away with in alot of areas.

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten, the law of noncontradiction denies what you claim, there has to be one way to the concept of god.

I don't follow your line of thinking here? You would have to show me how the law of noncontradiction applies here as I'm not sure how it's relevant. Here's an interesting thought.

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.
Ayn Rand

Which way is the 'one way' to the concept of 'God'? Is it the Hindu way, Islam way, Christian way, Athiest way, Gnostic way, etc, etc.? How does one determine which is correct, flip a coin? If I was born in India and raised to believe in Hinduism as the 'one way' would I be screwed in the end because I was raised in the wrong part of the world to have the correct way ingrained in me? hmmmm......what does your sacred book say? I believe it points to God judging on people's hearts not religions correct?

that being said the same must be with the way to god, jesus came to tell the way and if he didnt tell all the truth then his disclilples who wrote what he said were lying or he lied. and we already know thatthe nt is fairly the same since the earliest writings.

I thought Jesus came to show the way?

cheers

 

[seekandlisten]

Here again, you may not agree, but you should have the insight into the biblical Christian faith to know that we are bound by scripture to reject those who proclaim a different gospel than the One True Gospel. There can not be two truths, and we feel we have ample evidence to believe the Bible provides it.

Okay but do you forget the 'for he that is not against us is for us' point that Jesus made? People make absolute claims about the 'one true gospel' and the 'only way' but that doesn't make them supported statements. I do however realize that Christians are taught to flee from anything that may contradict what they believe.

I don't believe I've EVER said that someone will burn in hell, so you couldn't be referring to me. I believe we are provided with the Way to salvation, and we need to encourage people into it. Whether someone is condemned to hell on judgment day would never be for me to say. God's Grace is inconceivable to me.

Yet you believe Christianity is the only way to heaven right? Therefore it is the belief of your religion that those who do not follow Christianity are lost souls who are doomed to eternal fire right? Therefore whether you say it or not I know your religion condemns me to hell if I don't believe in it. It's just the way it works. You may not make that judgment but if you are going to say that I can't follow another 'way' then you hold your way to be exclusive and therefore if there is only 'one way' to 'God' and I'm not on it where am I going?

When it comes down to it I don't agree with Islam any more than I agree with Christianity. There is just as much non peaceful 'revelations' throughout the Bible to point out the one's in the Qur'an as evidence of it being a false gospel.

I wonder how you would support this statement. Certainly there is biblical scripture that detail God's directive to destroy cultures and people who will poison His people with sinful practices. We are never told in the Bible to kill those who are not followers of Christ.

You needn't look any further than Deuteronomy 13:7-11. "You must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God. . . ."

Most of these supposed 'militant' passages in the Qur'an are misinterpreted by Christians trying to prove Islam false. Whether they do this intentionally or due to misunderstanding I'm not entirely sure, but when a Muslim explains them in a non violent manner I tend to believe the one brought up in that religion would be more reliable at knowing the proper context just as those brought up outside Christianity also may have misconceptions about certain passages of the Bible wouldn't you agree?

Certainly there's misinterpretations being made on both sides. I can't deny that someone who studies the Koran knows a whole lot more than me. I have heard many stories from those who have left the faith expose the violent nature of the writings and the religion itself. Here's one from http://bibleprobe.com/islamapostates.htm :

Interesting story that has many opinions on the validity of his statements. Either way, someone who believed in the terrorist's group form of Islam probably isn't the best source to get an accurate portrayal of the whole religion and what is actually taught.

Paul also stated these things.

Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:1-4).

For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. (Romans 14:9-10).

I'm not sure how these verses apply to a false prophet or a false gospel.

They go along with the statement 'if they are not against us they are for us' and the judging of others motives from a different religion.

cheers

 

[jasoncran]

if one says jesus is the son of god, and another says he isnt. both claim the correct version
how can both be right?

 

[seekandlisten]

if one says jesus is the son of god, and another says he isnt. both claim the correct version how can both be right?

Well your basing the opinion that your right based on faith. I personally wouldn't say both are right, although I could say they are both wrong and have no contradiction. hmmmmm.........

Why do you believe the only way to 'God' is through a religion?

cheers

 

[jasoncran]

if one says jesus is the son of god, and another says he isnt. both claim the correct version how can both be right?

Well your basing the opinion that your right based on faith. I wouldn't say both are right, although I could say they are both wrong and have no contradiction. hmmmmm.........

Why do you believe the only way to 'God' is through a religion?

cheers

i will answer both by this

jesus is either a man or the son of god.

since you like the eastern thinking.and btw you claim a relgion, you are following one yourself. and by claiming that i'm wrong, you have just done what , contradicted yourself.

by naming my art something i have limited to it what the name says it is. a paraphrasing of bruce lee in the tao of jkd.

the same applies to religions if you take it that way, the problem with that is, what is that which you follow a bunch of unorganized mess.

 

[jasoncran]

to ma, if jesus is a prophet.alone, then his disciples that saw him and were at his feets should be the ones to speak. they did, and wrote nothing against paul.

but the lord is more than a prophet.

barnabas left paul over luke,not because he was a false.

if prophets are still around like you say, and some claim they are. i wont go into that being that i'm pentacostal and some of us do call and judgments on nations.

i dont. and a lot dont. but would you like someone to drop a word on saudi or anyother disaster and say that has happen because so and so nation sinned, and never repented.

in the nt, notice that hasnt been recorded, just warning of dirges, but never why that happened.

 

[seekandlisten]

Why do you believe the only way to 'God' is through a religion?

i will answer both by this

jesus is either a man or the son of god.

How does this answer my question?

Well let's look at what your putting forth. If you look at the 'evidence' for Jesus' existence you find that he was very much a man. Now you have claims that he was the Son of God or even God Himself yet these cannot be backed by anything but faith. One could also say that yes he was the son of God just like we are all sons and daughters of God as His children. It all depends on how you want to look at it.

since you like the eastern thinking.and btw you claim a relgion, you are following one yourself. and by claiming that i'm wrong, you have just done what , contradicted yourself.

Interesting. What religion do I claim?

by naming my art something i have limited to it what the name says it is. a paraphrasing of bruce lee in the tao of jkd.

the same applies to religions if you take it that way, the problem with that is, what is that which you follow a bunch of unorganized mess.

Well if you tried to believe everything that religions claimed it would truly be an unorganized mess. Now if you look at them using logic and reason, along with taking into the consideration the physical evidence we have, you can clearly see that they all teach you to act the same way they just make claims that they also want you to believe aside from that. These you must accept on faith. The choice is yours as to what you decide to put your faith in.

cheers

 

[jasoncran]

seekandlisten[/i]]

if one says jesus is the son of god, and another says he isnt. both claim the correct version how can both be right?

Well your basing the opinion that your right based on faith. I personally wouldn't say both are right, although I could say they are both wrong and have no contradiction

then what was jesus, an alien? he has to be something.or a lie, a person that doenst exist or never did.

 

[seekandlisten]

then what was jesus, an alien? he has to be something.or a lie, a person that doenst exist or never did.

How come you don't answer any of my questions and just keep throwing out 'if it's not this way it's that way' scenarios and crazy ideas. Jesus was a man, this can be backed up (to an extent). Anything above and beyond that claim is merely an opinion based on faith.

cheers

 

[jasoncran]

your own,

the websters defintion.

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-?li-j?n\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a PERSONAL SET or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

— re·li·gion·less adjective
you make up your own by taking what you like from on or another. that is selected what you dont like, and claim is untestable, thus you assume false.

so you are stating what truth is to you and discriminating accordingly. you have to, if not what would ensue is chaos. it has to be defined, to which i said earlier.

 

[jasoncran]

then what was jesus, an alien? he has to be something.or a lie, a person that doenst exist or never did.

How come you don't answer any of my questions and just keep throwing out 'if it's not this way it's that way' scenarios and crazy ideas. Jesus was a man, this can be backed up (to an extent). Anything above and beyond that claim is merely an opinion based on faith.

cheers

because you did this i could say both are wrong and not have a contradiction.

i stated that some say that jesus is the son of god and other says he isnt.

so if both are wrong then what was he.

but you claimed that all religions lead to god. so how is it possible to have all religions leading to god? when some clearly contradict each other?

you want just to choose a path, and not tell others what is wrong and hope that we all make it.
BUT, by claiming that religion is not the way to GOD, then you have stated you have the way or at least have to defend that
so god never told anyone how do get to him? if he did it like that, many ways its confusing a bit.

of course its by faith. but one or other must be wrong.

islam must be right or wrong, same with the others.

 

[seekandlisten]

you make up your own by taking what you like from on or another. that is selected what you dont like, and claim is untestable, thus you assume false.

This is how one must approach life. I don't make up a religion as I don't worship a 'God' and hold supernatural claims to be true. Yes, I believe there is/could be a 'God'. This is a belief as the only other position is that their is absolutely no 'God' which is also a claim that cannot be proven so neither position is any more valid. No, I don't believe in a 'personal God' that reaches in and meddles with his creation. What I 'select' from religion is traits that are beneficial and make logical sense.

so you are stating what truth is to you and discriminating accordingly. you have to, if not what would ensue is chaos. it has to be defined, to which i said earlier.

Well I may voice my opinion on certain topics pertaining to the supernatural, but I don't assert them as truth, or at least I try not to present it that way.

cheers

 

[jasoncran]

you do, you have claimed certian things that i believe are wrong.and you know what issue that is.


that is claiming a truth. if not then what is it.

 

[Pard]

Quote Pard: "Mohammad, the Muslim prophet, was given his false gospel from the angel Gabriel."

-------------

Hi Pard

I have a question.

What ever gave you the idea that the angel Gabriel gave a false gospel ?

Well, we'd first have to assume Gabriel really did come down to Mohammad and speak to him... BUT, if we did assume this truly happened than all one would have to do to know Gabriel gave him a false gospel is look at my first post and the scripture I quoted in it...

Hi Pard :

I read your OP, and this verse does not say that Gabriel came down from heaven. So I believe that you are assuming, or someone put that suggestive thought in your mind.

So, could you please answer my question ?

I do not understand what you are playing at here. Gabriel coming down to Mohammad is a Muslim belief, not mine. I do not even believe the guy saw Gabriel, frankly, but if Mohammad did than the verse quoted in my OP would apply to it and state that Gabriel was giving a false gospel. I already made that clear in my previous post...

 

[jasoncran]

ma, inorder to support your position you claim the conspiracy of we killed those that disagreed with anti-trinity stance.and eliminated the prior papers.so i wonder what sunnis have done to the shia along that nature as well.

if God isnt able to preserve his word, why bother with him at all. he's too weak to save you from hell.

odd since you claim that one. the bible survived much attempts of destruction
tyndynale the first translator to english was burned alive, yet we have other english translations.

so men cant disagree to the point they dont work together, the same applies to your position on paul. lack of evidence for his treason or false prophet is insuffient

Paul was more then a prophet.the apostles are above the prophet in the heirarchy.peter didnt rebuke paul yet he considiered his words as scripture!
if we eliminate peter then the book of mark is out.

you claim that paul was a traitor simply by acts 15:39. OH SO I MAKE MISTAKES MY BAD. talk about reading way into it.

why do you even claim the jews as god's people then as(moses) moussa was a jew not a muslim.and oddly you claim ishemal was the person that was sacrificed. by abraham. that makes a whole line of seed blessing and removes the jew, as the firstborn of abraham recieved the birthright. if ishhemal did then issac is not of the chosed seeed. hence jesus lied along with writers of the entire gospel. as they were wrong.

the entire ot is now in question.

 

[jasoncran]

pat robertson is a false prophet, i dont listen to him. if a prophet is off then he or she is a false prophet.

has any modern prophet done the things on the level of the ot prophets?
there have been some that did opperate on the gift, but a few have been in the office of a prophet and prophecy large scale things.

hmm i need to look at the gifts again and the office of a prophet.

in the book of acts

agabus was a prophet and he warned paul of his capture and turn over to the gentiles by the jews in the book acts 21:10-14.

on dirge acts 11: 28-30, maybe the same agabus in acts 21:10-14.