Annihilation

[guibox]

If one accepts (as the bible teaches) that the wicked do NOT have immortal bodies or souls or eternal life at all, one cannot come to the conclusion that they can be tortured for eternity.

The Bible clearly teaches that man has an immortal soul.

Umm...No. That is something you will have to prove. To do so, you must start with the meaning of 'soul', how it was used and the Hebrew's mindset on the state of man. That right there will stop you. Even if you believe that the righteous have immortal souls, you CANNOT prove that the wicked share this blessing. Rather the scriptures show the complete opposite.

Instead we see that the term 'eternal' means the results of their punishment

Show one instance where this is even implied. It is clearly taught that the punishment is eternal.

The fate of the wicked is compared to that of Edom and Sodom and Gomorrah in how they were destroyed and for how long. Both are eternal not in their duration as neither city is burning now, but in their results. Eternal for the righteous is eternal in duration becasue they will never die. The wicked do not have immortality therefore, eternal speaks about their final punishment for their wages of sin...death.

which according to Romans 6:23 is death and not eternal torment.

Once again you miss the obvious nuances of Scripture.

No, I take scripture for what it says. 'The wages of sin is death...BUT (inother words, in direct contrary to)...the gift of God is eternal life'

Eternal life for the righteous...death for the wicked. The wicked who are tormented for eternity DO have eternal life regardless of the quality of that life.

"He who has the Son has life, he who doesn't does not have life"
... Either here or in the hereafter

"Marvel not at this for all that are in their graves (*not in heaven or hell) will hear His voice and come forth. Some to the resurrection of life, others to the resurrection of damnation" John 5:28,29

"And those that are in the dust of the earth shall come forth. Some to everlasting life, others to everlasting contempt -Daniel 12:1

What is this 'contempt' and 'damnation'? Romans 6:23 says that it is death.

Why 'contempt'?

This parallels Isaiah 66:24 where the metaphor of God's people looking on the rotting corpses of the wicked brings contempt and disgust.

Even the term 'forever and ever' is relative to whom it is speaking about and is used in the scriptures as such.

Show me where it is used in a relative way about someone other than God.

Sputnik's example is one...Samuel was to serve in the house of Eli 'forever' and then it is clarified as 'as long as his life lasts'. 1 Samuel 1:22,28

The smoke of Edom's destruction went up 'forever'. So there is still smoke going up now? No it is gone up and forever done. It is finality of the destruction. Isaiah 34:10

 

[Free]

The Bible clearly teaches that man has an immortal soul.

Where?

Joh 11:26 "and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

So, do you?

Instead we see that the term 'eternal' means the results of their punishment

Show one instance where this is even implied. It is clearly taught that the punishment is eternal.

PunishMENT as in an accomplished act, yes. PunishING, as in an ongoing act, no.

This isn't what I asked for.

which according to Romans 6:23 is death and not eternal torment.

Once again you miss the obvious nuances of Scripture.

Where is the nuance here? It says what it reads.

Why doesn't it surprise me that you missed it too? There is more than one meaning for death in the Bible, just as there is more than one meaning for soul, just as there is more than one meaning for most words.

Even the term 'forever and ever' is relative to whom it is speaking about and is used in the scriptures as such.

Show me where it is used in a relative way about someone other than God.

Check your Bible Concordance, Free, there are a bunch of examples. I"ll present just one. It's found in Jonah 2:6. Jonah is talking about his experience in the belly of the whale. He says, "To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in FOREVER ..." It was 3 days and 3 nights but I guess it felt like 'forever' to Jonah.

Good. You and guibox given a couple of verses, from the OT mind you, where "forever" may not necessarily mean "forever".

However, the point has become rather moot since you have both argued that the duration of the effects of the punishment lasts forever, just not the punishment. What you have done is agree that "forever" does in fact mean "forever" as it pertains to punishment.

The biggest problem for you now is to prove that it is the effects of the punishment and not the punishment itself that lasts forever.

 

[SputnikBoy]

The Bible clearly teaches that man has an immortal soul.

Where?

Joh 11:26 "and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
So, do you?

Well, of course I believe that 'mortal MUST put on immortality' (1 Corinthians 15:53-54) BY VIRTUE of the fact that they believe in Jesus Christ. They are saved!

Not so for the UNBELIEVERS, however. They DON'T put on immortality. They are lost! And, by virtue of THAT fact ...they die - forever!

Instead we see that the term 'eternal' means the results of their punishment

Show one instance where this is even implied. It is clearly taught that the punishment is eternal.

PunishMENT as in an accomplished act, yes. PunishING, as in an ongoing act, no.

This isn't what I asked for.

You said: "It is clearly taught that the punishment is eternal." That's why I gave the answer that I gave. Yes, I agree that punishment IS certainly eternal ...in its consequence. The punishment was metered out accordingly but now it's over and done and the wicked are now gone forever. And, my answer was absolutely accurate based on the rest of the scriptures that support and confirm that the wicked will become 'as stubble', be consumed, be devoured, will perish, will die, will vanish, etc. etc.

which according to Romans 6:23 is death and not eternal torment.

Once again you miss the obvious nuances of Scripture.

Where is the nuance here? It says what it reads.

Why doesn't it surprise me that you missed it too? There is more than one meaning for death in the Bible, just as there is more than one meaning for soul, just as there is more than one meaning for most words.

I appreciate that. But why do we need to apply it here when this text supports and confirms other scriptures in relation to the destruction of the wicked? It's yet another scripture that tallies with umpteen others on this issue.

Even the term 'forever and ever' is relative to whom it is speaking about and is used in the scriptures as such.

Show me where it is used in a relative way about someone other than God.

Check your Bible Concordance, Free, there are a bunch of examples. I"ll present just one. It's found in Jonah 2:6. Jonah is talking about his experience in the belly of the whale. He says, "To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in FOREVER ..." It was 3 days and 3 nights but I guess it felt like 'forever' to Jonah.

Good. You and guibox given a couple of verses, from the OT mind you, where "forever" may not necessarily mean "forever".

However, the point has become rather moot since you have both argued that the duration of the effects of the punishment lasts forever, just not the punishment. What you have done is agree that "forever" does in fact mean "forever" as it pertains to punishment.

The biggest problem for you now is to prove that it is the effects of the punishment and not the punishment itself that lasts forever.

Again, I need to draw your attention to scriptural consistencies, Free. The destruction of the wicked becomes an established fact once all of the relevant scriptures have been compiled.

I don't know where else to go with this, Free. As long as you're playing this game of chess with me, all I can say is, "Stalemate." I do believe, however, that the facts have been more than well enough presented to make a good case for the 'annihilation of the wicked'.

 

[thessalonian]

anihilationism, universalism, eternal suffering, pre-trib, post trib, no trib, amil, post mil, pre-mil, armenianism, calvinism 3-5 point, OSAS, Eternal Security, Trinity, Oneness, predestination, double predestination, sacramentalism, tongues, no tongues, miracles, no miracles, baptism saves, it doesn't, spiritual communion, consubstantiation, symbol only, non-denominationalism, undenominationalism, denominationalisim, health and weath, zero sum, 10 forms of Open Theism, dispensationalism, futurism partial preterism, etc. etc.

When will all these theories end. What does "Those who worship me must worship in spirit and in truth" mean anymore?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Given some of the Scriptures that speak of eternal punishment and eternal life it is pretty much impossible to argue against eternal punishment without also arguing against eternal life. This is one of the reasons I reject annihilationism and universalism.

Exactly, specifically in Matthew 25/Great Judgement- the righteous to eternal reward, the wicked to eternal punishment.

Seems like some of those folks are inferring that we wish it to be so- nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[guibox]

Given some of the Scriptures that speak of eternal punishment and eternal life it is pretty much impossible to argue against eternal punishment without also arguing against eternal life. This is one of the reasons I reject annihilationism and universalism.

Exactly, specifically in Matthew 25/Great Judgement- the righteous to eternal reward, the wicked to eternal punishment.

Seems like some of those folks are inferring that we wish it to be so- nothing could be further from the truth.

You miss the obvious references to contrasting between the two fates. It is easy to take one verse and make a theology out of it. However, when we let the bible explain itself, we see the clear picture.

Your interpretation of Matthew 25 is not wholly correct. The righteous receive eternal 'life' not eternal 'reward'. The wicked receive the opposite. How do we know?

Romans 6:23 uses the same lingo for the righteous but contrasts it directly with death. The opposite of eternal life is not 'eternal life in torment' it is the opposite.

Whosoever believeth in Him should not PERISH BUT have everlasting LIFE. 'BUT' means there is a contrast. The word used here for perish means exactly that. It doesn't mean 'ruin' or 'anguish in torment'.

Psalms 37:20
Malachi 4:1,2

When all of these terms are taken together, we see that the wicked do not have immortality like the righteous, and we see they receive the opposite of the righteous' reward. Eternal life vs eternal death.

 

[guibox]

Why doesn't it surprise me that you missed it too? There is more than one meaning for death in the Bible, just as there is more than one meaning for soul, just as there is more than one meaning for most words.

If that is the case, then one must see the context of where and how that word is being used. Did you even look at my previous post about 'destroy'? I also did one on 'destruction' used in the bible. The words that seem to have some ambiguous meaning and not 'finality' are not used in the context of the ultimate fate of the wicked but in other situations. In that case, it doesn't matter worth a hoot if 'death' means something else. If it is not used in it's proper context, it is not valid.

Please show me according to linguistic usage where 'death' actually means 'eternal torment of the wicked'? I would like the Greek or Hebrew word used for it and which verse it is applied to...Try it with 'soul' too. I really don't have to tell you the evidence is completely against you, but you can give it a shot.

That is your first task if you want to have any credibility in what you are saying.

 

[Bubba]

Soul sleep

Guibox,
I so far, have agreed with what you have written in regards to “Annihilationâ€Â, where I am still hanging on to, is the “traditional†view that the believer goes on to be with the Lord at death (spiritually). Our immortality is in our new creation as believers through Jesus. We have regained what was lost in the garden, which is the image of God by His indwelling Spirit.
Some verses to consider, besides the normal argument of Scriptures, given by the “traditionalistâ€Â, which I checked out on the thread you suggested, are Mt.17:1-6, Mt. 22:31-32, and Rev. 6:9-11.
Beza

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Given some of the Scriptures that speak of eternal punishment and eternal life it is pretty much impossible to argue against eternal punishment without also arguing against eternal life. This is one of the reasons I reject annihilationism and universalism.

Exactly, specifically in Matthew 25/Great Judgement- the righteous to eternal reward, the wicked to eternal punishment.

Seems like some of those folks are inferring that we wish it to be so- nothing could be further from the truth.

You miss the obvious references to contrasting between the two fates. It is easy to take one verse and make a theology out of it. However, when we let the bible explain itself, we see the clear picture.

The words of Christ need not be balanced by any other scripture. His Word is Gospel- at one time, 'gospel' was synonymous with absolute truth.

There is no need to build a theology, so to speak, from a direct and clear quote. For example, "Remember the Sabbath Day" is one that you specifically argue against Pauline contextualizations- but here you are arguing for Pauline contextualizations, so that you may preserve your soul sleep doctrine.

Your interpretation of Matthew 25 is not wholly correct. The righteous receive eternal 'life' not eternal 'reward'. The wicked receive the opposite. How do we know?

The concept of reward is spoken of throughout chapter 25 of Matthew, but the term used is zoin aionion, which is rightly translated 'eternal life.' But you have wrongfully inserted the concept of "opposite," when clearly Christ is using contrast. Since you wish to split hairs on eternal reward vs eternal life, then we must be equally strict in interpreting kolasin aionion. Kolasis means punishment.
This is made clear in vs 41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

that would be this same fire

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

which in turn correlates with this

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Note that "any man" who worshipped the beast or image receive no sleep or rest. Hardly something to be spoken of those who were 'destroyed.'

Romans 6:23 uses the same lingo for the righteous but contrasts it directly with death. The opposite of eternal life is not 'eternal life in torment' it is the opposite.

"Opposite," as I stated, is a concept you're inserting.

Whosoever believeth in Him should not PERISH BUT have everlasting LIFE. 'BUT' means there is a contrast. The word used here for perish means exactly that. It doesn't mean 'ruin' or 'anguish in torment'.

Psalms 37:20
Malachi 4:1,2

When all of these terms are taken together, we see that the wicked do not have immortality like the righteous, and we see they receive the opposite of the righteous' reward. Eternal life vs eternal death.

The problem with this structure that you've built is that the foundation- a dichotomy- is not found in the verse quoted.

 

[Bubba]

Quote:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The language of the Revelation is very figurative and symbolic. In the case of Rev. 20:10, “day and night†no longer exist according to Rev. 22:5 and should we not also assume that “tormented day and night forever and ever†is also figurative? Especially in the light of Scripture like Isaiah 34:10, where the smoke of Edom certainly did come to a end literally, but not necessarily figuratively in respect to judgment.

Quote:
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Could not Rev. 14:10-11 be linked with Gen. 19:28, Isaiah 34:10, Jude 5-7, Rev. 18:8,18 and Rev. 19:3, where the importance is placed on the sign of the torment and punishment which is the smoke? God being a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29) and all the references to Gehenna as a place where the dead will go (which was a literal place in the first century, liken to a dump where the fire burned continuously and all that was placed there was destroyed) coupled with 2nd Peter 3:11-13 and you have a larger picture of Annihilation at the end of all things.

Beza

 

[kwag_myers]

Funny how out of the seven uses of 'destroy' you highlight the one that fits your theology while ignoring the context of the others. I've never seen that interpretation before, myself. Sounds a little eisegetic to me.

Funny how you omitted the comment that I was addressing.

Let's review, SputnikBoy wrote: "...'perish' means 'cease to exist'"

My point is that it can mean eternal misery, too. SputnikBoy's assumption is based on a narrow view of the word. He says that it means this, I say, not necessarily.

If you want to believe something bad enough you will twist what you can to make it fit.

Exactly the point I was hoping to make. Thank you for agreeing with me. It's called eisegesis, "the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas". In order for us to clearly understand, we must exegesis, "an explanation or critical interpretation of a text".

 

[guibox]

Funny how you omitted the comment that I was addressing.

Let's review, SputnikBoy wrote: "...'perish' means 'cease to exist'"

My point is that it can mean eternal misery, too. SputnikBoy's assumption is based on a narrow view of the word. He says that it means this, I say, not necessarily

So when and how is 'perish' used to mean 'eternal misery'? Please find the Greek word to mean this and WHERE in the scriptures it is used. Keep in mind that this meaning also must coincide with the Greek word for 'death' used in Romans 6:23 as they are saying the same thing.

So, you have two things to figure out for us and post, please:

1) What is the word used for 'perish' that means 'eternal misery'
2) Where in the scriptures (in what context) is this specific word used?

Thanks

If you want to believe something bad enough you will twist what you can to make it fit.

Exactly the point I was hoping to make. Thank you for agreeing with me. It's called eisegesis, "the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas". In order for us to clearly understand, we must exegesis, "an explanation or critical interpretation of a text".

Okay. So prove your method is exegesis and not eisegeses.

Context is everything for exegesis so please do the above mentioned the exegetical way.

 

[guibox]

Your interpretation of Matthew 25 is not wholly correct. The righteous receive eternal 'life' not eternal 'reward'. The wicked receive the opposite. How do we know?

The concept of reward is spoken of throughout chapter 25 of Matthew, but the term used is zoin aionion, which is rightly translated 'eternal life.' But you have wrongfully inserted the concept of "opposite," when clearly Christ is using contrast. Since you wish to split hairs on eternal reward vs eternal life, then we must be equally strict in interpreting kolasin aionion. Kolasis means punishment..

You cannot have eternal life in punishment. A punishment is a one time act. The punishment for sin is not torment but death. That is why Christ came to save us...from death. When we sinned, we were dying. He came to save us from that death. Romans 6:23 bears this out. 'death' and 'life' are contrasted OC. You cannot make 'death' contrasted to 'eternal life' MEAN eternal life. For that is what conscious torment for eternity IS: ETERNAL LIFE.

The punishment of death IS eternal. There is no more resurrection for "the former things have passed away". They are gone forever. The symbolic language of the scriptures in this regard show FINALITY

This is made clear in vs 41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

that would be this same fire
[quote:c8946]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

which in turn correlates with this

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Note that "any man" who worshipped the beast or image receive no sleep or rest. Hardly something to be spoken of those who were 'destroyed.'[/quote:c8946]

Again, as beza pointed out. Please look at the figurative use of the same language in Isaiah 34:10 describing the destruction of Edom.

'day and night' implies continuity not duration. In other words, for however long this punishment occurs there is no interruption

'unquenchable fire' means that it can't be put out not that it will not go out (I direct you to Jeremiah 17:27 for this interpretation)

A fire that cannot be put out will do its work uninterrupted...In other words it will destroy COMPLETELY. This same analogy used in Isaiah 66:24, last verse, about the 'worms dying not' is the same thing. Worms will eat their corpses until they are GONE.

'forever and ever' - is used in the bible based on contextual application. 'forever and ever' is translated as 'as long as life lasts' (See 1 Samuel 1:21,24,28) or an 'unspecified period of time' See also Jonah saying he was in 'hell forever' when in the belly of the whale.

So Revelation 14:10 is basically saying this:

'They shall be continually tormented without rest for as long as their life lasts'

The fire that comes down from heaven DEVOURS the wicked (Revelation 20:8). Do you know another word used for 'devour'?

It is 'consumed'.

Take a look at the usage of supernatural fire consuming in Exodus 3:2 when God appeared to Moses in the form of the burning bush.

"and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush WAS NOT CONSUMED"

So to 'be consumed' means to be 'burnt up'. To NOT be consumed means to 'keep on burning'

Malachi 4:1,3

"For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble. And the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked for they will be ashes, under the soles of your feet in the day that I do this, saith the Lord"

Do you believe that sin cannot exist in the presence of God? Do you realize that the wicked are tormented 'in the presence of the Lamb'? How can this occur for eternity when they are still sinful?

How can this be and what kind of a God would allow Himself and His angels to watch His beloved children be tortured forever by a fire HE created?

The new heaven and the new earth would be marred from day one as sin and sinners co-exist with it throughout eternity.

How can God 'wipe away all tears and there shall be no more death, nor pain nor crying for the former things are passed away' when we know that there are sinners left there by God (directly tortured by God's fire) for the next trillions of years?

 

[SputnikBoy]

I don't see how anyone can argue with the common-sense reasoning and scriptural savvy of the above post. I fear, however, that they will.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Your interpretation of Matthew 25 is not wholly correct. The righteous receive eternal 'life' not eternal 'reward'. The wicked receive the opposite. How do we know?

The concept of reward is spoken of throughout chapter 25 of Matthew, but the term used is zoin aionion, which is rightly translated 'eternal life.' But you have wrongfully inserted the concept of "opposite," when clearly Christ is using contrast. Since you wish to split hairs on eternal reward vs eternal life, then we must be equally strict in interpreting kolasin aionion. Kolasis means punishment..

You cannot have eternal life in punishment. A punishment is a one time act.

Tell that to the guys serving 25 to life. :roll:

The punishment for sin is not torment but death

So you make the punishment metaphorical and the death literal...

That is why Christ came to save us...from death. When we sinned, we were dying. He came to save us from that death. Romans 6:23 bears this out. 'death' and 'life' are contrasted OC. You cannot make 'death' contrasted to 'eternal life' MEAN eternal life. For that is what conscious torment for eternity IS: ETERNAL LIFE.

I didn't make it so, as you fallaciously indicate- I just pointed out the words of Christ, which you are laboring feverishly to contextualize.

The punishment of death IS eternal. There is no more resurrection for "the former things have passed away". They are gone forever. The symbolic language of the scriptures in this regard show FINALITY

How capricious your choice of what is figurative and what is literal. Christ's language in Matthew 25 is metaphorical, to be sure, but I think many people take eternal life literally. If they do, they must take eternal punishment literally as well.

This is made clear in vs 41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

that would be this same fire
[quote:3316a]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

which in turn correlates with this
[quote:3316a]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Note that "any man" who worshipped the beast or image receive no sleep or rest. Hardly something to be spoken of those who were 'destroyed.'[/quote:3316a]

Again, as beza pointed out. Please look at the figurative use of the same language in Isaiah 34:10 describing the destruction of Edom.

'day and night' implies continuity not duration. In other words, for however long this punishment occurs there is no interruption [/quote:3316a]
So it will take God days and nights to destroy individuals. Right.
In addition to being a very weak response, that mini apologetic leans in the direction of a Purgatory whose end is ashes, not salvation.

'unquenchable fire' means that it can't be put out not that it will not go out (I direct you to Jeremiah 17:27 for this interpretation)

One needn't look where the SDA cult points us to buttress their soul sleep heresy. Look unto the Greek term used, and you will understand the meaning.

A fire that cannot be put out will do its work uninterrupted...In other words it will destroy COMPLETELY. This same analogy used in Isaiah 66:24, last verse, about the 'worms dying not' is the same thing. Worms will eat their corpses until they are GONE.

A worm that does not die is an idiom for a decay that is without end. You insert and end where one is denied.

'forever and ever' - is used in the bible based on contextual application. 'forever and ever' is translated as 'as long as life lasts' (See 1 Samuel 1:21,24,28) or an 'unspecified period of time' See also Jonah saying he was in 'hell forever' when in the belly of the whale.

Irrelevant: we have demonstrated a clear contrast, in context between eternal life- which you do not deny is eternal and does not end when it is fully received, with an eternal punishment of which the same thing must be said, in reverse.

So Revelation 14:10 is basically saying this:

'They shall be continually tormented without rest for as long as their life lasts'

I've got access to about 26 translations, none of them use that wording.

The fire that comes down from heaven DEVOURS the wicked (Revelation 20:8). Do you know another word used for 'devour'?

It is 'consumed'.

Take a look at the usage of supernatural fire consuming in Exodus 3:2 when God appeared to Moses in the form of the burning bush.

"and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush WAS NOT CONSUMED"

So to 'be consumed' means to be 'burnt up'. To NOT be consumed means to 'keep on burning'

Malachi 4:1,3

"For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble. And the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked for they will be ashes, under the soles of your feet in the day that I do this, saith the Lord"

Do you believe that sin cannot exist in the presence of God?

No, that's absolute nonsense. There is nowhere in the universe where God's presence is not, and there is barely a corner of this galaxy where sin is not felt and experienced.

Now, here is where your contrived explanation may have some merit:
Even the torment of God is not a torment, for in Him there is no shadow or turning. No, we shall live in His presence, and for those who love Him, the fire will not burn. For those who hate Him, even His love shall be a burning indignation. At some point in time, it may be that such will cease to exist, as we understand existence. Why? Because "in Him we live and move and have our being." When we are not in Him, we have not being.

Do you realize that the wicked are tormented 'in the presence of the Lamb'? How can this occur for eternity when they are still sinful?

See above for a short explanation.
By way of example: If you really want to pile burning coals upon the head of an enemy, be kind to them when they are evil.
Now think about that for a moment.

How can this be and what kind of a God would allow Himself and His angels to watch His beloved children be tortured forever by a fire HE created?

You act as if time is an actual experience in heaven and the heavenly realms. You think that a short killing is preferable to God, as opposed to watching the people burn themself ina living fire. I think you anthropomorphisize God.

The new heaven and the new earth would be marred from day one as sin and sinners co-exist with it throughout eternity.

How can God 'wipe away all tears and there shall be no more death, nor pain nor crying for the former things are passed away' when we know that there are sinners left there by God (directly tortured by God's fire) for the next trillions of years?

Like most Protestants, you fail to recognize that Revelation 21 is a now thing, not a future event. God tabernacles with man NOW, not in the future. The Holy Spirit is in your tent NOW.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Okay, gang ...maybe it's time for some God-given brainpower to come into play here. Do any of you REALLY believe that God will punish for eternity - as inflict pain on continually for a literal forever - those whose only sin may have been to have not believed in Jesus Christ? Come on! What kind of a sadist God are we promoting here? Answer this question in your minds and the scriptures will then fall into place. Call this 'cult thinking' if you like, OC. Quite frankly I don't care.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Okay, gang ...maybe it's time for some God-given brainpower to come into play here. Do any of you REALLY believe that God will punish for eternity - as inflict pain on continually for a literal forever - those whose only sin may have been to have not believed in Jesus Christ? Come on! What kind of a sadist God are we promoting here? Answer this question in your minds and the scriptures will then fall into place. Call this 'cult thinking' if you like, OC. Quite frankly I don't care.

I wouldn't call what you just did there 'cult thinking'- I'd call it a strawman- at least, in response to my statement. I understand that most of your statement is couched so as to answer the soteriology and eschatology of the Evangelical Protestant.

This statement of mine

Even the torment of God is not a torment, for in Him there is no shadow or turning. No, we shall live in His presence, and for those who love Him, the fire will not burn. For those who hate Him, even His love shall be a burning indignation. At some point in time, it may be that such will cease to exist, as we understand existence. Why? Because "in Him we live and move and have our being." When we are not in Him, we have not being.

bears no resemblance to your response query. God is not the actor in torment, it is hatred of Him that is. You will note that the three youths were cast into a fire that did not burn them or leave the smell of smoke, yet those who hated them and hated God were burned up.

The item of dispute here is the soul.

Now using your humanist frame of logic, let's hold God to another test: Why does He resurrect people just to kill them? How bizarre is that?

 

[Bubba]

salvation and end time

“I understand that most of your statement is couched so as to answer the soteriology and eschatology of the Evangelical Protestant.â€Â

Orthodox, what is your soteriology and eschatology?

â€ÂEven the torment of God is not a torment, for in Him there is no shadow or turning. No, we shall live in His presence, and for those who love Him, the fire will not burn. For those who hate Him, even His love shall be a burning indignation. At some point in time, it may be that such will cease to exist, as we understand existence. Why? Because "in Him we live and move and have our being." When we are not in Him, we have not being.â€Â

This statement for the most part I agree with. I believe there will be a limited amount of punishment for the individual and then they will cease to exist.

“The item of dispute here is the soul.â€Â

Does not Scripture say that God is able to destroy the soul which would constitute the destruction of the whole person?
Beza

 

[Vic C.]

Re: salvation and end time

... “The item of dispute here is the soul.â€Â

Does not Scripture say that God is able to destroy the soul which would constitute the destruction of the whole person?
Beza

Good question. What is being said here?

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Also, what is being said here as well?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

A few more things I've been pondering...

Immortality of the soul; is this something we are born with or is it something we inherit?

If it is someting we inherit, who inherits it?

If just some inherit immorality, what happens to those who don't?

It is not my desire to enter into this debate... I'm asking for clarification. I'd like to hear from anyone who is willing and able to answer.

Thanks,
Vic

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: salvation and end time

... “The item of dispute here is the soul.â€Â

Does not Scripture say that God is able to destroy the soul which would constitute the destruction of the whole person?
Beza

Good question. What is being said here?

Exactly what it says.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Also, what is being said here as well?

Exactly what it says.

[quote:043ed]Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Again, exactly what it says. There are two choices and two only. One is eternal life, the other is eternal death.

A few more things I've been pondering...

Immortality of the soul; is this something we are born with or is it something we inherit?

It (eternal life) is something we inherit ...Matthew 19:29.

If it is someting we inherit, who inherits it?

Those who qualify (1 Corinthians 15:53-54) will put on immortality.

If just some inherit immorality, what happens to those who don't?

These ones DON'T inherit immortality and therefore they die (perish) ...forever (John 3:16).

It is not my desire to enter into this debate... I'm asking for clarification. I'd like to hear from anyone who is willing and able to answer.

Thanks,
Vic[/quote:043ed]