Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Butch5]

Premises established, just letting you know. You should credit pagan Greek Stoicism for your beliefs about the afterlife, they certainly are not what Scripture teaches:

"So, it follows that if one of these two things departs, the soul no longer exists. We are told that God's breath/ spirit returns to Him when man dies." #250 Butch5

The Greek Stoics believed in a concept called pneuma, which can be translated as "breath" or "spirit." This pneuma was understood as a vital force...the Stoics believed that the soul, or more accurately the pneuma, would be reabsorbed into the cosmic pneuma upon physical death. They did not believe in an afterlife in the traditional sense; instead, they thought that individual consciousness would cease to exist after death.

Stoicism didn't come into being until around the 4th century. It was Plato that influenced the Greeks in the early church. Plato's teaching was that the flesh was evil and the goal of man was have his soul escape the body and ascend into the heavens? Sound familiar?

Scripture teaches individual consciousness survives physical death, angels carry the redeemed soul to paradise in third heaven, they are "gathered to" the people of God, and its likely gravity pulls the wicked soul down into the tormenting region of hades because the body's electromagnetism no longer prevents them sinking down through the crust of the earth:

More opinion.

Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. (Gen. 25:8 NKJ)

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' (Lk. 16:22-24 NKJ)

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:2-4 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5 NKJ)

Please establish your premise. Posting passages that you misunderstand does not establish your premise. Each of these passages is easily explained in the Conditional Immortality model. Since they can be understood in more than one way they cannot be used to establish your premise, not that any of them state what you claim. This is how you establish your premise. My premise is that man cannot live apart from the body.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:6–7.

This passage describes the creation of man. God created the man from the dust. Thus man consists of the dust. God then breathed something out of Himself and into the man. That is the breath/spirit of life. Then man "became" a living soul. conclusion: a living soul consists of the man and the breath of life/sprit from God. The man became a soul.

When a man dies.

because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ec 12:5–7.

The dust, man, returns to the earth and the breath/spirit of life from God returns to God. The living soul is separated, the two components, the dust, returns to the earth and the breath/sprit returns to God. Since the two components have separated the living soul has ceased to exist.

That's my premise and it's stated clearly in Scripture. There is nothing about a soul living on after death.

Peter said that Jesus gave his body for sin.

. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but gcommitted himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Pe 2:20–24.

He gave His body for sins.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
For he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
And he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
Because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
And he was numbered with the transgressors;
And he bare the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 53:11–12.

Isaiah said He bore our sins by pouring out His soul unto death. Peter said He bore our sins in His body on the tree. That's when He died. Isaiah said the same thing and it was His soul that died. Thus, the body and the soul are the same.

As I stated at the top, it was the Greeks who taught that the soul could live on after death.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Stoicism didn't come into being until around the 4th century. It was Plato that influenced the Greeks in the early church. Plato's teaching was that the flesh was evil and the goal of man was have his soul escape the body and ascend into the heavens? Sound familiar?

That is like claiming Christianity didn't come into being until the 4th century when it "flourished", not the 1st century when it began:

Stoicism is a school of Hellenistic philosophy that flourished in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome.[1] The Stoics believed that the practice of virtue is enough to achieve eudaimonia: a well-lived life. The Stoics identified the path to achieving it with a life spent practicing the four virtues in everyday life: wisdom, courage, temperance or moderation, and justice, and living in accordance with nature. It was founded in the ancient Agora of Athens by Zeno of Citium around 300 BC.-Wikipedia

 

[Butch5]

That is like claiming Christianity didn't come into being until the 4th century when it "flourished", not the 1st century when it began:

Stoicism is a school of Hellenistic philosophy that flourished in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome.[1] The Stoics believed that the practice of virtue is enough to achieve eudaimonia: a well-lived life. The Stoics identified the path to achieving it with a life spent practicing the four virtues in everyday life: wisdom, courage, temperance or moderation, and justice, and living in accordance with nature. It was founded in the ancient Agora of Athens by Zeno of Citium around 300 BC.-Wikipedia

Are you equating Stoicism with Christianity? I said Stoicism came about in the 4th century, not Christianity. It was Plato's teaching that influenced the early church. But this isn't even the subject of the thread.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Are you equating Stoicism with Christianity? I said Stoicism came about in the 4th century, not Christianity. It was Plato's teaching that influenced the early church. But this isn't even the subject of the thread.

No, with an analogy I illustrated shoddy if not misleading "scholarship", if scholars will forgive me.

That typifies the misuse of scripture against the clear and explicit scriptures I brought forth, proving my claims and in particularly #260.

 

[Butch5]

No, with an analogy I illustrated shoddy if not misleading "scholarship", if scholars will forgive me.

That typifies the misuse of scripture against the clear and explicit scriptures I brought forth, proving my claims and in particularly #260.

None of the passages you posted say that the dead live on after the body dies. You came to those passage already believing that. Thus you believe they affirm your position. However, each passage is easily understood in the Conditional Immortality model, Thus they can't be used to prove your position.

 

[Butch5]

Premises established, just letting you know. You should credit pagan Greek Stoicism for your beliefs about the afterlife, they certainly are not what Scripture teaches:

"So, it follows that if one of these two things departs, the soul no longer exists. We are told that God's breath/ spirit returns to Him when man dies." #250 Butch5

The Greek Stoics believed in a concept called pneuma, which can be translated as "breath" or "spirit." This pneuma was understood as a vital force...the Stoics believed that the soul, or more accurately the pneuma, would be reabsorbed into the cosmic pneuma upon physical death. They did not believe in an afterlife in the traditional sense; instead, they thought that individual consciousness would cease to exist after death.

Scripture teaches individual consciousness survives physical death, angels carry the redeemed soul to paradise in third heaven, they are "gathered to" the people of God, and its likely gravity pulls the wicked soul down into the tormenting region of hades because the body's electromagnetism no longer prevents them sinking down through the crust of the earth:

Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. (Gen. 25:8 NKJ)

Abraham was buried.

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' (Lk. 16:22-24 NKJ)

This is a parable which is why it's being spoken to the Scribes and Pharisees.

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

There was no punctuation in the original text. The commas were placed where the translator thinks they should be. The passage can also be translated with the comma after the word today rrather than before it. This changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:2-4 NKJ)

If Paul didn't know, how do you?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5 NKJ)

This is a book of symbolism. We see this same kind of language used of the very first martyr.

10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 4:10.

Does blood have a mouth? Can blood speak? Obviously this is figurative language, and it's from the first martyr

 

[Alfred Persson]

None of the passages you posted say that the dead live on after the body dies. You came to those passage already believing that. Thus you believe they affirm your position. However, each passage is easily understood in the Conditional Immortality model, Thus they can't be used to prove your position.

Jesus said men do not kill the soul when they kill the body, therefore it survives physical death.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28 NKJ)

God can destroy both, with "destroy" containing a wide range of options for God, from "ruin" to complete destruction.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus said men do not kill the soul when they kill the body, therefore it survives physical death.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28 NKJ)

God can destroy both, with "destroy" containing a wide range of options for God, from "ruin" to complete destruction.

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Le 17:11.

In this passage all three bolded words are nephesh or soul. In the Scriptures Nephesh is used in two senses, concrete and abstract. In Gen. 2:7 it is used concretely of a living soul (being). It's also used abstractly in Scripture and often translated "life" as we have here in Lev. 17:11. Since nephesh can be translated life, let's look at Jesus' words again.

. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 10:27–28.

In this passage, the Greek word psuche is used for soul. It is the equivalent of the Hebrew word nephesh. If we translate psuche as life instead of soul the passage becomes a bit easier to understand.

. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the life: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 10:27–28.

How could someone kill the body, but not kill the life? Obviously, if the body has died its life has ceased. So, that would leads of to ask, what was Jesus actually saying? He mentions God who can destroy the life verses man who cannot. How is that? Because God has the power of resurrection. Man can kill but God can make alive. Thus, man can kill the body, the person, but, ultimately, he cannot kill the life because God holds that in His hand.

9 Who knoweth not in all these That the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? 10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Job 12:9–10.

The life of every living thing is in the Lord's hand. Thus man can kill the body, but he cannot ultimately kill the life (soul) because God hold that in His hand.

 

[Alfred Persson]

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Le 17:11.

In this passage all three bolded words are nephesh or soul. In the Scriptures Nephesh is used in two senses, concrete and abstract. In Gen. 2:7 it is used concretely of a living soul (being). It's also used abstractly in Scripture and often translated "life" as we have here in Lev. 17:11. Since nephesh can be translated life, let's look at Jesus' words again.

. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 10:27–28.

In this passage, the Greek word psuche is used for soul. It is the equivalent of the Hebrew word nephesh. If we translate psuche as life instead of soul the passage becomes a bit easier to understand.

. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the life: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 10:27–28.

How could someone kill the body, but not kill the life? Obviously, if the body has died its life has ceased. So, that would leads of to ask, what was Jesus actually saying? He mentions God who can destroy the life verses man who cannot. How is that? Because God has the power of resurrection. Man can kill but God can make alive. Thus, man can kill the body, the person, but, ultimately, he cannot kill the life because God holds that in His hand.

9 Who knoweth not in all these That the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? 10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Job 12:9–10.

The life of every living thing is in the Lord's hand. Thus man can kill the body, but he cannot ultimately kill the life (soul) because God hold that in His hand.

Your reply is "evasion" of Christ's teaching, nothing more. Proof texting your preconceptions about other texts, does not treat Christ's teaching. You evaded it.

 

[Butch5]

Your reply is "evasion" of Christ's teaching, nothing more. Proof texting your preconceptions about other texts, does not treat Christ's teaching. You evaded it.

Showing how the passages can be understood differently isn't "evasion."

Every passage that people use to try to support the ETC doctrine can be understood differently. The reason they can understood differently is because they're not teaching the ETC doctrine. The Bible is abundantly clear. The penalty for sin is death.

 

[Alfred Persson]

How could someone kill the body, but not kill the life? Obviously, if the body has died its life has ceased. So, that would leads of to ask, what was Jesus actually saying? He mentions God who can destroy the life verses man who cannot. How is that? Because God has the power of resurrection. Man can kill but God can make alive. Thus, man can kill the body, the person, but, ultimately, he cannot kill the life because God holds that in His hand.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But be afraid rather of him who is able to destroy the soul and body in Gehenna. (Matt. 10:28 MGI)

You are thrice contradicted by this text:

1)Your claim "man is soul" because "soul" does not die when the man dies.
2)Your claim "soul is future life" because God is not granting the wicked life when He casts both into the garbage heap of Gehenna to burn in unquenchable fire.
3)Your claim wicked souls are annihilated. Just as the body's "destruction" in Gehenna is not cessation of existence or annihilation, neither is the soul imprisoned within it being annihilated or ceasing to exist.

Against you, Sadducees, and Stoics, Jesus said souls cannot be killed with the body, it therefore continues to exist after physical death. Its not something that comes into being in a future resurrection, its something in us now that man cannot kill, that survives physical death.

 

[Butch5]

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But be afraid rather of him who is able to destroy the soul and body in Gehenna. (Matt. 10:28 MGI)

You are thrice contradicted by this text:

1)Your claim "man is soul" because "soul" does not die when the man dies.
2)Your claim "soul is future life" because God is not granting the wicked life when He casts both into the garbage heap of Gehenna to burn in unquenchable fire.
3)Your claim wicked souls are annihilated. Just as the body's "destruction" in Gehenna is not cessation of existence or annihilation, neither is the soul imprisoned within it being annihilated or ceasing to exist.

Against you, Sadducees, and Stoics, Jesus said souls cannot be killed with the body, it therefore continues to exist after physical death. Its not something that comes into being in a future resurrection, its something in us now that man cannot kill, that survives physical death.

Firstly, I didn't say soul was future life. I said soul is used abstractly of life. Jesus did not say souls cannot be killed with the body. He said man can kill the body but not the life (soul). He also said that God can destroy both. If souls don't die how can God destroy them? Note, too, He said, destroy not torment forever.

As I've said several times now. This idea that the soul can live apart from the body came to Christianity from Greek philosophy. It's known as Dualism. The idea that some part of man lives on after the body dies. It's not Biblical. Plato taught that the body was the prison of the soul and that it was man's goal to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. That's why the idea of resurrection was foolishness to the Greeks. Their goal was to escape the body. Why then would they want resurrection which would have them in a body again.

23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Cor. 1:23-24 NKJ)

18 Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, "What does this babbler want to say?" Others said, "He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign gods," because he preached to them Jesus and the resurrection. (Acts 17:18 NKJ)

I noticed, too, that you've used that same language. In your claim 3 you said, "neither is the soul imprisoned within it." This indicates that you see the soul as something imprisoned in the body. This also necessitates that the "real" person is not the body as it can live apart from the body. In this idea the "real" person is some sort of immaterial being. This is exactly what Plato taught and it flies in the face of Scripture.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7

The man became a living soul.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Gen 3:19.

God said to Adam, 'you are dust.'

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Gen 6:3.

God said that man is flesh. That eliminates the idea that man is some sort of immaterial being.

You see, posting this passage, Mathew 10:28, to prove man lives on after death is actually the fallacy called "Begging the Question." By posting this passages it must be assumed that man can live on after the body dies. However, that is the very premise you've started with. One which has not been established from Scripture, I might add.

Here's how the fallacy goes. "I believe the soul lives on after the body dies?
Here is a passage of Scripture that says man can kill the body but not the soul.
Conclusion, this must mean the soul can live on after the body dies.

It's circular. It starts with the very idea that it concludes.

What I was actually getting at in the previous post is that man can kill the body and that does indeed end the life, temporarily. But, that life has only been temporarily suspended. That person will live again. All will be resurrected, thus everyone who has died has not died in the ultimate sense. That's the point that Jesus is making. Yes, men can kill, but don't worry about that. It's temporary. Instead worry about God, because when He kills it's permanent.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Firstly, I didn't say soul was future life. I said soul is used abstractly of life. Jesus did not say souls cannot be killed with the body. He said man can kill the body but not the life (soul). He also said that God can destroy both. If souls don't die how can God destroy them? Note, too, He said, destroy not torment forever.

As I've said several times now. This idea that the soul can live apart from the body came to Christianity from Greek philosophy. It's known as Dualism...

You keep switching from "soul" to an "abstract idea of soul" as "a future life possible in God."

Otherwise, the above is babble, neither soul nor soul in abstract as a future life with God exists.

If "soul is nothing", you can't affirm anything about it, it doesn't exist.

The definitions of "soul" change in your replies, according to the scripture contradicting you.

Equivocation fallacy invalidates your Stoic/Sadducean/JW argument.

 

[Butch5]

You keep switching from "soul" to an "abstract idea of soul" as "a future life possible in God."
Otherwise, the above is babble, neither soul nor soul in abstract as a future life with God exists."

I've not said that soul is future life. I've said soul is used two ways in Scripture. It's used concretely and abstractly. When used concretely it's a being. When used abstractly it's life

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Notice that the man didn't become a being until he was alive.

The word "being" is nephesh. Nephesh is also translated soul.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The same word, nephesh, is translated soul in one translation and being in another. A living soul and a living being are one and the same.

Nephesh is also used abstractly as life.

11 `For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.' (Lev. 17:11 NKJ)

In this passage we have soul used both ways. It's translated as "Life" when used abstractly and then it's used concretely as soul. "The nephesh of the flesh is in the blood." It could also be translated, the soul of the flesh is in the blood. The point is that both words, life and soul, are the same Hebrew word, nephesh.

If "soul is nothing", you can't affirm anything about it, it doesn't exist.

I didn't say soul is nothing.

The definitions of "soul" change in your replies, according to the scripture contradicting you.

Equivocation fallacy invalidates your Stoic/Sadducean/JW argument.

It's not equivocation because in both uses it's speaking of life. As I've pointed out above, the man didn't become a soul/being/life until he became a "life." We could also say that when God breathed into the man the man became a life or he became alive. In both the concrete and abstract uses of the word nephesh, life, is involved. A living being has life.

Equivocation is when a word has two different meanings and one switches between them. For instance, the word doctor. John is a doctor, he can cure disease. Well, Tom is also a doctor, he has a PHD in economics, so he can also cure disease. That's equivocation. The word doctor has two different meanings in this instance.

As I've pointed out above, the translators use different words to translate the same Hebrew word, nephesh. And, soul and life aren't the only two. Here are some more.

AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 45;

And this is only one translation. They have a least 16 different words that they use to translate nephesh.

Is it any wonder that many English speaking Christians don't have a Biblical understanding of nephesh, soul?

Imagine how much better our understanding would be if they just translated the word nephesh as a single word throughout the Bible. Translate it either life or soul and use that one word throughout the Bible. People would have a much better understanding of what the word means.

 

[Alfred Persson]

...
It's not equivocation because in both uses it's speaking of life. As I've pointed out above, the man didn't become a soul/being/life until he became a "life." We could also say that when God breathed into the man the man became a life or he became alive. In both the concrete and abstract uses of the word nephesh, life, is involved. A living being has life.

Equivocation is when a word has two different meanings and one switches between them. For instance, the word doctor. John is a doctor, he can cure disease. Well, Tom is also a doctor, he has a PHD in economics, so he can also cure disease. That's equivocation. The word doctor has two different meanings in this instance.

The equivocation is evident in your exegesis of Ezekiel 18. You cite "the soul who sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:4) interpreting this to be cessation of existence upon physical death, ignoring this implies "the soul who does not sin shall NOT die":

But then you Equivocate, upon physical death righteous [soul] shall continue to live, and NOT die, but you interpret that as a "FUTURE LIFE" in God, "soul" then is no longer an entity that can live or die. That is equivocation:

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor's wife, Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully-- He is just; He shall surely live!" Says the Lord GOD.
10 "If he begets a son who is a robber Or a shedder of blood, Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties, But has eaten on the mountains Or defiled his neighbor's wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy, Robbed by violence, Not restored the pledge, Lifted his eyes to the idols, Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury Or taken increase-- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him.
14 "If, however, he begets a son Who sees all the sins which his father has done, And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor's wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone, Nor withheld a pledge, Nor robbed by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor And not received usury or increase, But has executed My judgments And walked in My statutes-- He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; He shall surely live!
18 "As for his father, Because he cruelly oppressed, Robbed his brother by violence, And did what is not good among his people, Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19 "Yet you say,`Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
(Ezek. 18:4-24 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Again, your definition of soul doesn't fit the scripture. God says the soul that sins shall die, not "potential future life" will be taken away. God doesn't punish a "potential" the individual had, He punishes the sinner.

 

[Barney Bright]

You forgot the most important defining verse regarding the afterlife - Dan. 12:2. Annihilation is unbiblical, and lare reincarnation and ghost.

... many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I understand that there are those who say annihilation isn't supported by scripture. However I disagree with those who believe that. The scriptures at Romans 5:12 and Romans 6:23 make it clear that the punishment for sin is death. So when a human being dies he/she has payed for every sin they did before they died.
So the ones who are resurrected, both righteous and unrighteous are resurrected during the thousand year reign of Jesus Chist. But those who are said to be unrighteous are not judged unrighteous for the things they did before they died, because death is the punishment for sin. They're judged to be unrighteous because of the things they did after the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, during the last test. After the last test is over then Satan his demons are all those humans who failed the last test will be thrown into the lake of fire. The fact that the scripture Revelation 20:14 shows that death and Hades/grave is thrown into the lake of fire teaches that when death and the grave/Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, they are destroyed out of existence forever. Death or the grave/Hades are not living persons so they can't feel anything when thrown into the lake of fire, they're simply destroyed out of existence for ever. So since death and the grave/Hades when thrown into the lake of fire are destroyed out of existence then anyone or anything would also be destroyed out of existence forever, when thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I understand that there are those who say annihilation isn't supported by scripture.

Annihilation isn't even supported by science, namely, the first law of thermodynamics - no matter or energy can be created or destroyed. Neither decomposition nor combustion is "annihilation", those are chemical reactions through which complex matters are disintegrated into simple matters. That's what "for dust you are and to dust you shall return" means. Likewise, if you believe we have a spirit in this earthen vessel, it will return to where it came from. If you have the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit will return to the Father; if you have evil spirits, then evil spirits will go down into the Lake of Fire following Satan.

"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last." (Lk. 23:46)

“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”(Matt. 12:43-45)

 

[Barney Bright]

Annihilation isn't even supported by science, namely, the first law of thermodynamics - no matter or energy can be created or destroyed. Neither decomposition nor combustion is "annihilation", those are chemical reactions through which complex matters are disintegrated into simple matters. That's what "for dust you are and to dust you shall return" means. Likewise, if you believe we have a spirit in this earthen vessel, it will return to where it came from. If you have the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit will return to the Father; if you have evil spirits, then evil spirits will go down into the Lake of Fire following Satan.

"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last." (Lk. 23:46)

“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”(Matt. 12:43-45)

First of all God brought into existence creation whether we're talking about heavenly existence or physical existence from nothing. Also Death isn't matter, and death is thrown into the lake of fire, and death can't feel any pain, so what happens to death when death is thrown into the lake of fire. From my research and study of the scriptures when the scriptures say that death will be thrown into the lake of fire, that means death will cease to exist forever.

I know for a fact that God brought creation into existence. Which means the angels who are living persons God caused them to come into existence as living persons. Also God caused human beings to come into existence as living persons. So just as God caused the angels and human beings to come into existence as living persons, God can cause evil angels and unrighteous humans to cease to exist as living persons.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I understand that there are those who say annihilation isn't supported by scripture. However I disagree with those who believe that. The scriptures at Romans 5:12 and Romans 6:23 make it clear that the punishment for sin is death. So when a human being dies he/she has payed for every sin they did before they died.
So the ones who are resurrected, both righteous and unrighteous are resurrected during the thousand year reign of Jesus Chist. But those who are said to be unrighteous are not judged unrighteous for the things they did before they died, because death is the punishment for sin. They're judged to be unrighteous because of the things they did after the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, during the last test. After the last test is over then Satan his demons are all those humans who failed the last test will be thrown into the lake of fire. The fact that the scripture Revelation 20:14 shows that death and Hades/grave is thrown into the lake of fire teaches that when death and the grave/Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, they are destroyed out of existence forever. Death or the grave/Hades are not living persons so they can't feel anything when thrown into the lake of fire, they're simply destroyed out of existence for ever. So since death and the grave/Hades when thrown into the lake of fire are destroyed out of existence then anyone or anything would also be destroyed out of existence forever, when thrown into the lake of fire.

I agree some are annihilated, but others are not. That is taught by the details revealed to us.

When “Death and Hades” are cast into the lake of fire” they are destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26), but the Devil, Beast and False Prophet receive eternal torment (Rev. 20:10).

These different fates require the symbolism of a consuming fire that cannot be quenched (Isa. 66:24; Mk. 9:44, 46, 48) is not pertinent to the duration of whatever is cast into it; Whatever is cast in can be immediately destroyed or endure for an undetermined period of time. Their lot or destiny, “their part” (3313 μέρος meros, Rev. 21:8) of “eternity” in the lake of fire, is “according to their works” (Rev. 20:12), in proportion to their deeds.

Some would object claiming “Death and Hades” are personified in this context, but as “sea” is also listed as a place the dead rise from, that is impossible. In context they are places the dead rise from that God created, therefore Guilty of nothing. Their being tossed into the fire is to symbolize their destruction, never to return. Whereas Satan and crew are guilty of eternal sins, therefore, “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment? | End Time News

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment for all cast into it? When “Death and Hades” are cast into the lake of fire” they are destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26), but the Devil, Beast and False Prophet receive eternal torment (Rev. 20:10). These different fates require the symbolism of a consuming...

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