Annihilationism

Butch5 · Jun 9, 2014

Stan1953 said:
Sorry but alluding to your sense of common sense is not exegesis.

Revelation defines the lake of fire, which obviously is symbolic, given spirits can't be tortured by actual fire.
It clearly show in Rev 20:10 that this is a place of torment, day and night, for ever and ever.
Matt 25:41 shows all unsaved will join them in that same place. As it is a place of torment for ALL spirits, the torment, which is not destructive nor physical, will be the same for all there. Eternal punishment/torment is not destructive, as that would make it a one time act and not an eternal one.
It's quite simple, as everything Jesus taught was.

But Jesus didn't say it was eternal, He said it was "aionios" fire. The translators said it is eternal. The Scriptures say they are wrong

Doulos Iesou · Jun 9, 2014

Stan1953 said:
I would suggest you reacquaint yourself with what a straw man is... I did not present a straw man argument.

Looking for where I said you presented a straw man.... can't find it. Can you point it out for me. I said you made a fallacious appeal to authority.

No one is infallible, especially those that have no credentials yet try to refute those that do. If you don't accept their rendering, then contact them and argue with the.

Perhaps you should reread my post, I said I didn't disagree with them here.

Meanwhile we who recognize and accept our personal limitations, will accept the rendering of ALL English versions thus far.

I actually read and study the Greek, and some people like to make their own interpretive decisions when it comes to making a translation.

Gary · Jun 9, 2014

Kathi said:
You are right.No.I don't think destruction is a good definition for those who do not choose Jesus Christ and go to hell.They will not be destroyed.

If they will not be destroyed, why does the bible say they will?
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Stan1953 · Jun 9, 2014

Butch5 said:
Hi Stan,
We don't need to look at armchair scholars, we can look at the Scriptures themselves.
As Doulos pointed out we have an example of everlasting fire, it is the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. They are not still burning, they burned and were destroyed.

The scripture say what they mean and when some bring up Greek , they are just equivocating about what the English does properly convey. Not every use of a word carries the same connotation...THAT is a result of the context.

Butch5 said:
Also, the Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament used the word "aionion" of the Aaronic priesthood saying that it is forever. Paul on the other hand says that the Aaronic priesthood ended.
21 "In the tabernacle of meeting, outside the veil which is before the Testimony, Aaron and his sons shall tend it from evening until morning before the LORD. It shall be a statute forever to their generations on behalf of the children of Israel. (Exo 27:21 NKJ)
The translators how translated "aionion" as forever. Is the Aaronic priesthood forever?
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. (Heb 7:11-12 NKJ)
There is example after example of this in the Scriptures. I believe this is a classic example of one's theology driving the interpretation and the definition of "aionion"
So, we have to decide who is correct here, the translators who chose to define "aionion" as forever or the apostles Paul who received the Gospel from Jesus.

αἰώνιος (aiṓnios) is not the same Greek word in Ex 27:21 as used in the examples used above, and connotes "perpetual", not "eternal'. So yes different word and connotation.
I'll go with the credentialed scholars. Either way Paul and Jesus said it in Hebrew but it was transcribed in Greek so unless you were there and know Hebrew, I fail to understand your rational here.

Kathi · Jun 9, 2014

Butch5 said:
It is Gehenna, the Lake of Fire. It's actually in God's kingdom. Notice also that there are bodies burning there. It is not a place of eternal torment because Jeremiah prophesied that this place Gehenna would be restored and made holy to the Lord.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
(Jer 31:1 KJV)

Gehenna will burn for a period of time determined by God but it is not eternal as we see that it will be made holy to the Lord.

That is not Biblcal.Life is full of choices and if that is what you believe the Bible says that is your choice.

Stan1953 · Jun 9, 2014

Doulos Iesou said:
No, alluding to the context, which is the first part of the sentence is exegesis. Defining the word by it's usage, which is made clear by his comparison to man who can only kill the body, but God can destroy (stronger word) both body and soul in hell. Definitely denotes the word "to destroy" which means not to ruin, but to extinguish the life.

And IF Jesus was saying what you purport, then he would have said WILL not CAN. You said using common sense, not me.

Doulos Iesou said:
It does actually define it. What does it say?
This is the second death, the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14b (ESV)
The lake of fire is the second death.
I've addressed this text so many times.
Please see here, where I talk about Revelation's usage of this terminology.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/conditional-immortality.53795/
See Post #7
As I have already noted in this thread.
Post #36

Yes and death is physical, just as the first death was. Believers do not experience the second death, as they go on to Eternal Life.
I'm not interested in cross posting or arguing another thread. Please deal with the issue HERE in this thread.
I'm sure I can address all your concerns here.

Doulos Iesou said:
I guess if you proof text a couple texts, without looking to the rest of Scripture it is simple, but with the history behind this issue it's not so much.

I have no doubt that the Bible interprets itself, but I also know it does not mean the same thing everywhere the same words are used. Context is always of prime importance, not just a word.

Kathi · Jun 9, 2014

Gary said:
If they will not be destroyed, why does the bible say they will?
.

Then what do you think of this verse? 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
It says "everlasting destruction" that means it lasts forever.

Stan1953 · Jun 9, 2014

Butch5 said:
But Jesus didn't say it was eternal, He said it was "aionios" fire. The translators said it is eternal. The Scriptures say they are wrong

That is your opinion, NOT fact. The fact is the word is properly translated as "eternal"
(Edited, Obadiah.)
. If you can demonstrate you are more qualified than the scholars that have ALL translated this as ETERNAL, then please do so, otherwise all you are doing is opining, not exegeting.

Gary · Jun 9, 2014

(Deleted, off topic. Obadiah.)
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Stan1953 · Jun 9, 2014