Annihilationism

[Doulos Iesou]

I said your sense of common sense.

Again, where did I allude to "my sense of common sense." Not finding it.

We are not enemies here, you can answer my questions I hope.

(Edited, Obadiah.)

 

[Butch5]

Not quite, but the scholars know that and it's why they use different words to translate it. My pizza is taking forever to get here is not the same as God has and will exist forever.
The scholars tell us what Paul said by their translation, ALL of them. You assert what Pal said but as you have no creds, it is not correct. Clinging to such an obvious error only shows you are bound to this dogma, not that you understand God's Word.
Maybe you can show ONE English translation that depicts what you say Paul says?

Stan, a figurative use of a word is not the same as an inflection. Look it up the words mean the same thing, they are the same word.

Regarding the dogma I think that is shown in the adhominens.

Paul said,

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Heb 7:11-12 KJV)

He said the priesthood was changed, your scholars says the Aaronic priesthood is forever.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

When Jesus speaks, we put all his words under a microscope.
As flawed humans we are funny that way.
Greek "scholars" are no better than commentators (flawed humans).
Destroy and ruin are synonyms...http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/destroy?s=ts

No, I try to listen and understand what he really said as it was recorded in the original language. I already pointed out that this couldn't mean "ruin" and how simply pointing out that the terms are somewhat similar does not mean that they apply every time. The meaning of the term is determined by context. It seems as though you've given up arguing for this. I don't think I have anything further to add to this conversation, which I haven't already stated elsewhere.

 

[DRS81]

It seems as though you've given up arguing for this. I don't think I have anything further to add to this conversation, which I haven't already stated elsewhere.

..as Doulos quietly ignores Dan 12:1-2 and Matt 25:46. ..... we'll call it a truce.

 

[Butch5]

One verse does not the OT make. Take a look at Gen 21:33, where you will find αἰώνιος, and tell us God is NOT Eternal?
I really don't understand the point you are trying to force here about Paul? Did he write it somewhere in English that I am not aware of? Do you have creds we can see to support your so-called interpretation?
The answer to both is NO, so I'm not sure exactly what you expect me to say?

Whether God is eternal doesn't answer the question what does 'aionios' mean. It can't mean eternal and not eternal, they are opposing definitions. If you look up the definition of "aion" you'll find it defined as, an age. An age can be any unspecified period of time. It could be 1000 years or 10,000 years, both can constitute an age. Since aion means an age it is unspecified/ An unspecified time could go on forever, but that must be determined from the context and not from the word aion. There is no doubt that the word is used to reference period of time that do end and as such can't really be defined as eternal.

 

[Stan1953]

Is it that difficult to say, "sorry I was mistaken."

How could I be mistaken about it when you used the statement? I'm sure all on here can read what you wrote. I won't address this anymore.

People need certain qualifications now in order to study other languages?
I've been personally mentored by one of my Pastors, in addition to doing some schooling on the matter.
What do qualifications matter? Doesn't the quality of the person's argument then matter?
Why don't we just quit this forum thing, since none of us are Doctorates in theology.
I'm learning just like you and everyone else here, and your attitude will soon lead me to stop all discussion with you. If you'd like to see how well I handle the Greek, you can discuss it with me, but if you want to take some elitist route of only talking with people of certain qualifications then you can go elsewhere.

People need creds and qualifications to contradict those that have them. If the premise of a persons argument is flawed or not based on sound hermeneutical exegesis then YES, the whole argument is fallacious.
Why would I quit? To let fallacious assertions go unopposed? Yep, I'm sure all false teachers would love that.

 

[Butch5]

..as Doulos quietly ignores Dan 12:1-2 and Matt 25:46. ..... we'll call it a truce.

Hi DRS81,

This has been addressed in the Conditional Immortality thread. As they pertain to annihilationism the problem is with the definition given to owlam and aionios.

 

[Stan1953]

Hi Stan,
Why did he say "can"? Do you understand how it would make absolutely no sense in that given context if he said "will?" Who was he addressing in this text?
Please answer these basic questions.
Indeed, both body and soul are destroyed in hell.
If you'd like, I can copy and pasting my work here. I just don't see anything from the responses you've given that doing the work again would be worth my time. No offense, you've just been less than cordial in discussing this doctrine.
I have been saying this several times in this thread.

I seem to have missed addressing this.

It's a relevant point, God CAN do anything as His Word says, but He doesn't.
In context, Jesus was speaking to the 12 apostles about who they will be persecuted by. Who He was referring to were those in v16-25 that would be their persecutors. Ultimately He was assuring them that God was in control, despite what they may perceive in their missions. It was God who was in TOTAL control of not only their welfare, but what they would even say. He contrasts the impotence of those people to what god can ultimately do.
This injunction to fear God and not people is perhaps a development of Is. 8:12, 13. It is supported by three arguments: first, the acts of the wicked will be shown for what they are; second, although people can kill the body, God can punish soul and body; and third, God orders everything, down to the fall of a sparrow and the number of hairs on the head. The Bible consistently teaches that fear and reverence are appropriate responses to God.(RSB)
I understand exactly WHAT you are saying, I'm juts not accepting it.

 

[DRS81]

Hi DRS81,

This has been addressed in the Conditional Immortality thread. As they pertain to annihilationism the problem is with the definition given to owlam and aionios.

Hey Butch. Well since we're in a Annihilationism thread it seems appropriate, what does owlam and aionios mean?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I seem to have missed addressing this.

It's a relevant point, God CAN do anything as His Word says, but He doesn't.
In context, Jesus was speaking to the 12 apostles about who they will be persecuted by. Who He was referring to were those in v16-25 that would be their persecutors. Ultimately He was assuring them that God was in control, despite what they may perceive in their missions. It was God who was in TOTAL control of not only their welfare, but what they would even say. He contrasts the impotence of those people to what god can ultimately do.
This injunction to fear God and not people is perhaps a development of Is. 8:12, 13. It is supported by three arguments: first, the acts of the wicked will be shown for what they are; second, although people can kill the body, God can punish soul and body; and third, God orders everything, down to the fall of a sparrow and the number of hairs on the head. The Bible consistently teaches that fear and reverence are appropriate responses to God.(RSB)
I understand exactly WHAT you are saying, I'm juts not accepting it. Sorry if my straightforwardness offends you but I'm more concerned with rightly dividing God's Word, than making people who espouse false teachings to feel all warm and fuzzy.

Yeah, we're done.

By the way he said "destroy body and soul in hell" not "punish."

 

[reba]

Closed for moderator review.

And people ask why we put moratoriums on subjects...

 

[reba]

Seeing a couple remarks in this thread about other similar threads being deleted.... It is not the subject that get most threads deleted it is the way the members disrespect each other and this site...

 

[Obadiah]

So far I have deleted some off topic posts and several posts that were responses to them. There was nothing wrong with the posts other than they were off topic. If someone wishes to discuss another subject unrelated to the OP of this thread, please start a new thread or join in on a current thread about the new subject. (Calvinism is an unrelated subject unless a poster can articulate it's relation to annihilationism and keep it limited to that relationship.)

I am leaving this thread closed for a little while longer until I've spoken with other moderators and made decisions on other editing.

 

[Chopper]

Gentlemen. I'm not a moderator of this thread but I have an interest in it for certain Staff reasons. I can not believe the personal digs you guys present to each other. It seems to me that you can't refrain from these little digs at the way the other person interprets Scripture. I'm of the opinion that unless you all can discuss the OP without words like "logical fallacy" "common sense" "straw man" "faulty exegeting" and other words that reflect on the other person's ability to understand either a context, a verse etc, etc. than the thread can continue if the Staff so desires, otherwise it should be shut down! Come on guy's really?? I'm disappointed to see men who are intellectuals, and very good interpreters of Scripture carry on in this fashion. Please stop.

 

[Obadiah]

I will re-open this thread now after much editing.

HOWEVER, before posting anything further I would suggest all participants read Choppers comment above and take it to heart. Let's stay on the subject of the OP and lets discuss it without all the personal attacks, even the thinly veiled ones that people sometimes think won't be noticed. I think most posters here know the ToS, but if you are unsure, please read it here (this is a hyperlink to the Terms of Service) before continuing. Please be kind to each other. We are Christians afterall.

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." (Jesus, John 13:35, KJV)

 

[Kathi]

Thank you mods

 

[agua.]

Not quite, but the scholars know that and it's why they use different words to translate it. My pizza is taking forever to get here is not the same as God has and will exist forever.
The scholars tell us what Paul said by their translation, ALL of them.
(Edited, Obadiah.)
Maybe you can show ONE English translation that depicts what you say Paul says?

2Th 1:8-9 YLT in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; (9) who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

 

[Butch5]

(Post removed, ToS 2.14, Obadiah.)

 

[Butch5]

Hey Butch. Well since we're in a Annihilationism thread it seems appropriate, what does owlam and aionios mean?

Hi DRS81,

Aion is defined as an age, I believe this is correct. I would define both owlam and aion as an unspecified period of time.

 

[reba]

Seeing a couple remarks in this thread about other similar threads being deleted.... It is not the subject that get most threads deleted it is the way the members disrespect each other and this site...

Choose your words. Understand who your reader is.... Keep this in mind...

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Much latitude/ respect was given to the OP in the other Annihilationism thread be sure to return in kind...