Another Gospel?

[Rookie]

The book of Hebrews was written under the New Covenant and confirms that the Old Covenant of law, rules and religion is no longer in force, Hebrews 8:7-13. Under the New Covenant Christians are led by the Holy Spirit and not by laws, rules or religion, Galatians 3:2. All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It is the work of the Spirit to produce good works and the Christian life, Ephesians 2:10. It is all of God and not of religion.

Faith is given to those that hear and believe the Gospel, Romans 10:17. We are all sinners saved by grace, Romans 3:10. However, Christians that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will not deliberately sin. If they do, they have an advocate.

This is a straw man fallacy as I am not saying works get you into heaven, you are responding to an argument that i did not make. I am still waiting for you to respond to all the Scripture I put regarding how faith automatically produces works, nothing you said rebuttals that thesis. I never said you do religion or works to get into heaven, faith in Christ through the power of the Spirit AUTOMATICALLY produces good works. And to the contrary people who deliberately, continously, and habitually sin do not have an advocate according to Hebrew 10.

Hebrews 10:26-29 "26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? "

I do not believe also that you can accept one part of Scripture and reject another because it doesn't fit personal preference and agendas. It's either all of Scripture or none. Paul reaffirms the relevancy of ALL Scripture for us: 2 Timothy 3:16-17:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Robert Pate]

This is a straw man fallacy as I am not saying works get you into heaven, you are responding to an argument that i did not make. I am still waiting for you to respond to all the Scripture I put regarding how faith automatically produces works, nothing you said rebuttals that thesis. I never said you do religion or works to get into heaven, faith in Christ through the power of the Spirit AUTOMATICALLY produces good works. And to the contrary people who deliberately, continously, and habitually sin do not have an advocate according to Hebrew 10.

Hebrews 10:26-29 "26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? "

I do not believe also that you can accept one part of Scripture and reject another because it doesn't fit personal preference and agendas. It's either all of Scripture or none. Paul reaffirms the relevancy of ALL Scripture for us: 2 Timothy 3:16-17:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The only scripture that is relevant is scripture that was written under the New Covenant. If you continue under the Old Covenant and disregard the New Covenant you will be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. To reject the New Covenant is to reject Christ and his Gospel.

Under the New Covenant Jesus has ALREADY defeated sin, death and the devil. Under the New Covenant we are ALREADY complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Under the New Covenant the just shall live by faith, Romans 1:17. And not by rules, laws or religion.

All that have come to Christ will receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will produce good works and the Christian life, Ephesians 2:10. It is all of God.

 

[Rookie]

The only scripture that is relevant is scripture that was written under the New Covenant. If you continue under the Old Covenant and disregard the New Covenant you will be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. To reject the New Covenant is to reject Christ and his Gospel.

Under the New Covenant Jesus has ALREADY defeated sin, death and the devil. Under the New Covenant we are ALREADY complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Under the New Covenant the just shall live by faith, Romans 1:17. And not by rules, laws or religion.

All that have come to Christ will receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will produce good works and the Christian life, Ephesians 2:10. It is all of God.

According to your theory, we are to completely reject Genesis-Malachi as it's completely irrelevant and useless to us. Although it's a straw man fallacy to assume I'm pushing for the disregarding of the New Covenant, when I'm not. The Bible is like a complete picture. The Old Testament is the beginning without an ending and the New Testament is an ending without a beginning. No one said anything about being under the law or religion as that's a category I reject. If anything the New Covenant has more laws and rules for example adultery to adultery of the heart, murder to hatred it the heart. Jesus takes it deeper if anything.

Jesus didn't come to do away with the law but to fulfill it - Matthew 5:17. So that theory is subjugated to personal opinion as the Bible is inclusive of both. Now if we follow ONLY the Old Testament then you're correct, but if we put them together in the respectable places then we have the full Gospel. The Gospel isn't simply in the New Testament. The story of Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, David, Esther, and many others have the Gospel written all over it. Even Abraham was glad when he saw Jesus' day. John 8:56.

Romans 3:31 "Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law."

 

[Robert Pate]

According to your theory, we are to completely reject Genesis-Malachi as it's completely irrelevant and useless to us. Although it's a straw man fallacy to assume I'm pushing for the disregarding of the New Covenant, when I'm not. The Bible is like a complete picture. The Old Testament is the beginning without an ending and the New Testament is an ending without a beginning. No one said anything about being under the law or religion as that's a category I reject. If anything the New Covenant has more laws and rules for example adultery to adultery of the heart, murder to hatred it the heart. Jesus takes it deeper if anything.

Jesus didn't come to do away with the law but to fulfill it - Matthew 5:17. So that theory is subjugated to personal opinion as the Bible is inclusive of both. Now if we follow ONLY the Old Testament then you're correct, but if we put them together in the respectable places then we have the full Gospel. The Gospel isn't simply in the New Testament. The story of Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, David, Esther, and many others have the Gospel written all over it. Even Abraham was glad when he saw Jesus' day. John 8:56.

Romans 3:31 "Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law."

There are no laws or rules under the New Covenant, they have been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed the law to his cross, Colossians 2:14. Paul said, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. Christians are not Pharisees; Christians are Spirit led children of God. If you need laws and rules it may be that you don't have the Holy Spirit. Paul said, "The law was not made for the righteous man but for the lawless and disobedient" 1 Timothy 1:9. If you are lawless and disobedient then the law is for you.

 

[Rookie]

There are no laws or rules under the New Covenant, they have been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed the law to his cross, Colossians 2:14. Paul said, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. Christians are not Pharisees; Christians are Spirit led children of God. If you need laws and rules it may be that you don't have the Holy Spirit. Paul said, "The law was not made for the righteous man but for the lawless and disobedient" 1 Timothy 1:9. If you are lawless and disobedient then the law is for you.

I will reiterate it again.

Romans 3:31 "Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law."

Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have NOT come to abolish them but to FULFILL them."

 

[Robert Pate]

I will reiterate it again.

Romans 3:31 "Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law."

Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have NOT come to abolish them but to FULFILL them."

We establish the law by being in Christ. God can find no sin in the man that is in Christ, we are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

Jesus fulfilled the law and then he abolished it by nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14.

To be under the law is to be under condemnation. There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ, Romans 8:1.

The law is a ministry of death, 2 Corinthians 2 Corinthians 7:11. The law also makes God angry, Romans 4:15.

 

[Rookie]

We establish the law by being in Christ. God can find no sin in the man that is in Christ, we are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

Jesus fulfilled the law and then he abolished it by nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14.

To be under the law is to be under condemnation. There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ, Romans 8:1.

The law is a ministry of death, 2 Corinthians 2 Corinthians 7:11. The law also makes God angry, Romans 4:15.

So is Colossians and Matthew a contradiction or is the understanding of it is?

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. - Colossians 2:14

That clearly means the JUDGEMENT of the law is abolished not the Law itself. The Law demanded punishment of our sin from God, what God did was stand in the place of our punishment and satisfy the Law's demand. So whoever accepts Christ is free from that judgement. But those who step out of Christ, reject Christ, reject His salvation and take the blow Jesus took for us. But does that mean the Law is gone and we are free to do what we want? Surely not my friend. Should we sin so grace may abound, surely not my friend.

Matthew 5:17-19
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Rookie]

We establish the law by being in Christ. God can find no sin in the man that is in Christ, we are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

Jesus fulfilled the law and then he abolished it by nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14.

To be under the law is to be under condemnation. There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ, Romans 8:1.

The law is a ministry of death, 2 Corinthians 2 Corinthians 7:11. The law also makes God angry, Romans 4:15.

But I will give credit to where credit is due. You so far have been one of the kindest and gentle if not the most kind over a place where it seems we disagree, it shows me the light of Christ which even among believers I've conversed with I've rarely seen. Thank you.

 

[Robert Pate]

So is Colossians and Matthew a contradiction or is the understanding of it is?

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. - Colossians 2:14

That clearly means the JUDGEMENT of the law is abolished not the Law itself. The Law demanded punishment of our sin from God, what God did was stand in the place of our punishment and satisfy the Law's demand. So whoever accepts Christ is free from that judgement. But those who step out of Christ, reject Christ, reject His salvation and take the blow Jesus took for us. But does that mean the Law is gone and we are free to do what we want? Surely not my friend. Should we sin so grace may abound, surely not my friend.

Matthew 5:17-19
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

All has been accomplished, so that now, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe" Romans 10:4.

 

[Rookie]

Look at this if you wish: https://becomingchristians.com/new-...an-when-it-says-christ-is-the-end-of-the-law/

 

[Robert Pate]

Look at this if you wish: https://becomingchristians.com/new-...an-when-it-says-christ-is-the-end-of-the-law/

I have heard that argument before. There are other scriptures that confirm Romans 10:4 is correct, such as 2 Corinthians 3:4 where Paul says that the law is a ministration of death. Hebrews 8:7 indicates that the first Covenant had some problems. The New Covenant is about Jesus Christ and his Gospel.

 

[Mungo]

I have bad news for you, Matthew, mark, Luke and John were also written under the Old Covenant. If you want to know what was written under the New Covenant you will have to read Paul's epistles. Under the New Covenant God's people do not live by laws, rules or religion, instead they live by faith in Christ and his Gospel, Romans 1:17.

Just before Jesus ascended into heaven he gave some last instructions to the apostles

According to Matthew and Mark he said "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" and "He who believes and is baptized will be saved;"

According to Robert Pate he said "I've got good news and bad news. The bad news is that the gospel I have been teaching you for 3 years is wrong so forget it. And don't baptise - it so OT. The good news is that in a few years I will send a man called Paul to you to teach you the correct gospel".

 

[Robert Pate]

Just before Jesus ascended into heaven he gave some last instructions to the apostles

According to Matthew and Mark he said "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" and "He who believes and is baptized will be saved;"

According to Robert Pate he said "I've got good news and bad news. The bad news is that the gospel I have been teaching you for 3 years is wrong so forget it. And don't baptise - it so OT. The good news is that in a few years I will send a man called Paul to you to teach you the correct gospel".

Jesus never did preach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. He left that up to the apostles. Jesus was a teacher of the Mosiac law. The purpose of the Mosiac law is to convict of sin and to reveal the righteousness of God. Another purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ so that we can be justified by faith, Galatians 3:24. Baptism is a work, any religious thing that we do is a work. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ, Romans 4:5. We are accepted only in him and because of him. Under the New Covenant we are saved and justified by faith alone. It is by faith alone, because it is by Christ alone.

 

[Highway54]

Paul wrote to the Galatians, "I marvel that you are soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the Gospel of Christ. But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you than what we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other Gospel unto you than what you have received, let him be accursed, Galatians 1:6-9.

There is only one Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

Paul said, "For by grace (God's goodness) are you saved through faith; and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" Ephesians 2:8-9.

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul eliminated works as a means of salvation. The reason that salvation is not by works is because it is the gift of God. A gift cannot be earned or deserved otherwise it is not a gift. Some will say that the word "Grace" in this scripture means the grace of Christ. The word grace in this scripture means the grace of God. God was gracious in that he sent his Son to be the savior of the world, John 3:17.

Paul said, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

Paul makes it clear that salvation is not by works, nor is it by obedience to the law. If it is not by works or obedience to the law, then it can only be by faith and by faith alone.

Nearly 2k yrs later it has evolved into this Robert Pate: world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries. If one can believe it.

 

[Mungo]

Jesus never did preach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

Yes he did. Read the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector (Lk 18:9-14).
The tax collector was a sinner - ungodly. But he acknowledged his sinfulness and God justified him.

Jesus preached the kingdom of God (Mk 1:14-15, Lk 4:43).
Paul preached the kingdom of God (Rom 4:17, 1Cor 4:20)
Same gospel.

He left that up to the apostles. Jesus was a teacher of the Mosiac law. The purpose of the Mosiac law is to convict of sin and to reveal the righteousness of God.

No scripture. As you said to me:
"If you are going to refute what I say you will have to do it with scripture, otherwise it is nothing but hot air."

Another purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ so that we can be justified by faith, Galatians 3:24.

Faith has always been required for justification. Abraham was justified by his faith (Rom 4:3)

Baptism is a work, any religious thing that we do is a work. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ, Romans 4:5. We are accepted only in him and because of him.

By work Paul means works of the [OT] law; works that attempt to earn justification (Rom 4:4).
Baptism is not a work of the law. It is not a work that earns justification.
If it is a work because it is something we do, then so is faith a work because it is something we do.

Under the New Covenant we are saved and justified by faith alone. It is by faith alone, because it is by Christ alone.

No scripture. As you said to me:
"If you are going to refute what I say you will have to do it with scripture, otherwise it is nothing but hot air."

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes he did. Read the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector (Lk 18:9-14).
The tax collector was a sinner - ungodly. But he acknowledged his sinfulness and God justified him.

Jesus preached the kingdom of God (Mk 1:14-15, Lk 4:43).
Paul preached the kingdom of God (Rom 4:17, 1Cor 4:20)
Same gospel.


No scripture. As you said to me:
"If you are going to refute what I say you will have to do it with scripture, otherwise it is nothing but hot air."


Faith has always been required for justification. Abraham was justified by his faith (Rom 4:3)



By work Paul means works of the [OT] law; works that attempt to earn justification (Rom 4:4).
Baptism is not a work of the law. It is not a work that earns justification.
If it is a work because it is something we do, then so is faith a work because it is something we do.

No scripture. As you said to me:
"If you are going to refute what I say you will have to do it with scripture, otherwise it is nothing but hot air."

Works, Law keeping, Religion are all under the judgment of God.

This is why Paul wrote, "But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

It didn't work for the Pharisees, and it is not going to work for you, See Matthew the 23rd chapter.

 

[Mungo]

Works, Law keeping, Religion are all under the judgment of God.

This is why Paul wrote, "But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

It didn't work for the Pharisees, and it is not going to work for you, See Matthew the 23rd chapter.

I didn't suggest that it did work for the Pharisee.
As usual you either ignore the points I make of just dodge them.

Let's try again
Read the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector (Lk 18:9-14).
The tax collector was a sinner - ungodly. But he acknowledged his sinfulness and God justified him.

Jesus preached the kingdom of God (Mk 1:14-15, Lk 4:43).
Paul preached the kingdom of God (Rom 4:17, 1Cor 4:20)
Same gospel.

By work Paul means works of the [OT] law; works that attempt to earn justification (Rom 4:4).
Baptism is not a work of the law. It is not a work that earns justification.
If it is a work because it is something we do, then so is faith a work because it is something we do.

 

[Robert Pate]

I didn't suggest that it did work for the Pharisee.
As usual you either ignore the points I make of just dodge them.

Let's try again
Read the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector (Lk 18:9-14).
The tax collector was a sinner - ungodly. But he acknowledged his sinfulness and God justified him.

Jesus preached the kingdom of God (Mk 1:14-15, Lk 4:43).
Paul preached the kingdom of God (Rom 4:17, 1Cor 4:20)
Same gospel.

By work Paul means works of the [OT] law; works that attempt to earn justification (Rom 4:4).
Baptism is not a work of the law. It is not a work that earns justification.
If it is a work because it is something we do, then so is faith a work because it is something we do.

What you are practicing is Old Covenant law and religion that is under the judgment of God, Galatians 3:10-14.

Under the New Covenant God's people are saved and justified by faith, Romans 1:17. Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly, Ephesians 2:8.

 

[Mungo]

What you are practicing is Old Covenant law and religion that is under the judgment of God, Galatians 3:10-14.

Once again you completely dodge the points I made.

You claimed "Jesus never did preach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. "
I showed that to be untrue with the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector (Lk 18:914)
The tax collector was a sinner - ungodly. But he acknowledged his sinfulness and God justified him.
There you have it. Jesus taught that the God justifies the ungodly.
Moreover:
Jesus preached the kingdom of God (Mk 1:14-15, Lk 4:43).
Paul preached the kingdom of God (Rom 4:17, 1Cor 4:20)
Same gospel.

Under the New Covenant God's people are saved and justified by faith, Romans 1:17. Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly, Ephesians 2:8.

Yes, but not by faith alone. Nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.

 

[Robert Pate]

Once again you completely dodge the points I made.

You claimed "Jesus never did preach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. "
I showed that to be untrue with the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector (Lk 18:914)
The tax collector was a sinner - ungodly. But he acknowledged his sinfulness and God justified him.
There you have it. Jesus taught that the God justifies the ungodly.
Moreover:
Jesus preached the kingdom of God (Mk 1:14-15, Lk 4:43).
Paul preached the kingdom of God (Rom 4:17, 1Cor 4:20)
Same gospel.




Yes, but not by faith alone. Nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.

If salvation is not by works, Romans 4:5. And it's not by obedience to the law, Romans 3:20. Then it can only be by faith and by faith alone, Romans 3:28. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners. If he did that would make him a sinner. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ; we are accepted only in him and because of him.