Another Gospel?

[Mungo]

If salvation is not by works, Romans 4:5. And it's not by obedience to the law, Romans 3:20. Then it can only be by faith and by faith alone, Romans 3:28.

Yet again you are dodging the point I made about Rom 4:5
By work Paul means works of the [OT] law; works that attempt to earn justification (Rom 4:4).
Baptism is not a work of the law. It is not a work that earns justification.
If it is a work because it is something we do, then so is faith a work because it is something we do.


Nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.

In his book How Can I Get To Heaven? Robert Sungenis says that Paul used the word faith over 200 times but not once did he couple it with alone or only. He also pointed out that Paul used the word alone more frequently than any other NT writer. "Many of these instances appear right alongside the very contexts that contain teaching on faith and justification. Thus it is obvious that even while Paul was teaching about the nature of justification he was keenly aware of the word alone and it's qualifying properties. This would lead us to expect that if Paul wanted to teach clearly that man was justified by faith alone, he would have utilized that phrase, since it would have made his point undisputable."

God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners. If he did that would make him a sinner. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ; we are accepted only in him and because of him.

No scripture. As you said to me:
"If you are going to refute what I say you will have to do it with scripture, otherwise it is nothing but hot air."

 

[Robert Pate]

Yet again you are dodging the point I made about Rom 4:5
By work Paul means works of the [OT] law; works that attempt to earn justification (Rom 4:4).
Baptism is not a work of the law. It is not a work that earns justification.
If it is a work because it is something we do, then so is faith a work because it is something we do.


Nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.

In his book How Can I Get To Heaven? Robert Sungenis says that Paul used the word faith over 200 times but not once did he couple it with alone or only. He also pointed out that Paul used the word alone more frequently than any other NT writer. "Many of these instances appear right alongside the very contexts that contain teaching on faith and justification. Thus it is obvious that even while Paul was teaching about the nature of justification he was keenly aware of the word alone and it's qualifying properties. This would lead us to expect that if Paul wanted to teach clearly that man was justified by faith alone, he would have utilized that phrase, since it would have made his point undisputable."


No scripture. As you said to me:
"If you are going to refute what I say you will have to do it with scripture, otherwise it is nothing but hot air."

You have been refuted. If it is not by works, Romans 4:5 and not by obedience to the law, Romans 3:20. Then the only thing left is faith and faith alone. Here is how it is, Works=0, Obedience=0, Faith=100%.

 

[Mungo]

You have been refuted. If it is not by works, Romans 4:5 and not by obedience to the law, Romans 3:20. Then the only thing left is faith and faith alone. Here is how it is, Works=0, Obedience=0, Faith=100%.

You have no attempt to refute my points. You have just dodged them.

To repeat my point about Rom 4:5 that you keep dodging:
By work Paul means works of the [OT] law; works that attempt to earn justification (Rom 4:4).
Baptism is not a work of the law. It is not a work that earns justification.
If it is a work because it is something we do, then so is faith a work because it is something we do.

Works=0

No. Works of the law =0

Obedience=0

No. If you disobey God there are serious consequences:

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,(1Cor 6:9)

Let marriage be held in honour among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for God will judge the immoral and adulterous. (Heb 13:4)

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments".(John 14:15)
Do you not love Jesus?

Think on this one:
And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;(1 John 2:3-4)

Faith=100%.

Nowhere does scripture say that faith is all we need.
Jesus says He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

 

[Robert Pate]

You have no attempt to refute my points. You have just dodged them.

To repeat my point about Rom 4:5 that you keep dodging:
By work Paul means works of the [OT] law; works that attempt to earn justification (Rom 4:4).
Baptism is not a work of the law. It is not a work that earns justification.
If it is a work because it is something we do, then so is faith a work because it is something we do.


No. Works of the law =0


No. If you disobey God there are serious consequences:

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,(1Cor 6:9)

Let marriage be held in honour among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for God will judge the immoral and adulterous. (Heb 13:4)

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments".(John 14:15)
Do you not love Jesus?

Think on this one:
And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;(1 John 2:3-4)


Nowhere does scripture say that faith is all we need.
Jesus says He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

Mungo, I am not on this Forum to try and prove that you are wrong and I am right. That is not my objective.

I used to be religious just like you. You might say that I was the chief of all Pharisees. When I discovered the liberating power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ all of that changed. I dropped out of the organized church and became separate unto the Lord. The scripture says, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be separate saith the Lord" 2 Corinthians 6:17. This is what I did and what you should do. Jesus is your savior, not the Catholic church.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mungo, I am not on this Forum to try and prove that you are wrong and I am right. That is not my objective.

I used to be religious just like you. You might say that I was the chief of all Pharisees. When I discovered the liberating power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ all of that changed. I dropped out of the organized church and became separate unto the Lord. The scripture says, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be separate saith the Lord" 2 Corinthians 6:17. This is what I did and what you should do. Jesus is your savior, not the Catholic church.

Did Mungo state that the CC saves him?

Or did he state that Jesus is our Savior THROUGH a church?

For instance, you need a church to be baptized.
You need a church to learn what God expects from us.

Jesus said to go into the world and teach...that takes a church....

 

[Mungo]

I dropped out of the organized church and became separate unto the Lord. The scripture says, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be separate saith the Lord" 2 Corinthians 6:17.

The "them" that Paul is referring to are the unbelievers.
So what you are suggesting is that those that attend a church are unbelievers, and only lone christians like you are actually believers. :shock

 

[GodsGrace]

Mungo, I am not on this Forum to try and prove that you are wrong and I am right. That is not my objective.

I used to be religious just like you. You might say that I was the chief of all Pharisees. When I discovered the liberating power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ all of that changed. I dropped out of the organized church and became separate unto the Lord. The scripture says, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be separate saith the Lord" 2 Corinthians 6:17. This is what I did and what you should do. Jesus is your savior, not the Catholic church.

In my most honest opinion, I must say Robert Pate, that PERHAPS you have been a little TOO liberated.

I fear for you, TTYTT.
This belief of yours that you are required to do nothing in order to be a Christian is rather fear-causing.

I hope you speak it but don't do it.
I hope you love God as you do your neighbors, which means that you are willing to lend a hand and be helpful in furthering the Kingdom of God here on earth - which is the main reason Jesus came to us. Also as an atonement, not to belittle that.

Taking someone out of church is like removing a piece of coal from the hearth.
It cools off, lying there all by itself.
Hebrews 10:25
Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves...

 

[Robert Pate]

In my most honest opinion, I must say Robert Pate, that PERHAPS you have been a little TOO liberated.

I fear for you, TTYTT.
This belief of yours that you are required to do nothing in order to be a Christian is rather fear-causing.

I hope you speak it but don't do it.
I hope you love God as you do your neighbors, which means that you are willing to lend a hand and be helpful in furthering the Kingdom of God here on earth - which is the main reason Jesus came to us. Also as an atonement, not to belittle that.

Taking someone out of church is like removing a piece of coal from the hearth.
It cools off, lying there all by itself.
Hebrews 10:25
Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves...

I have fellowship with other Gospel believing Christians, but I have no fellowship with those that believe that they are saved by works or obedience to the law, Romans 4:5.

Jesus said, "If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed" John 8:36.

To be in bondage to laws, rules or religion is to be under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have fellowship with other Gospel believing Christians, but I have no fellowship with those that believe that they are saved by works or obedience to the law, Romans 4:5.

Jesus said, "If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed" John 8:36.

To be in bondage to laws, rules or religion is to be under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

Unfortunately for you, John 8:36 does not speak about being free from obeying God.
In fact, this is what God wants from you.
Unbelief and disobedience go hand in hand and, actually, in the Greek, unbelief and disobedience share the same word base.

Believe and Obey...
Disobey and Disbelieve...

So, let's see what Jesus freed us from...

John 8:31-44

31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
37“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38“I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41“You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

From the above we learn that:

1. If we want to be disciples of Jesus we must abide in His word. (His teachings).
2. The TRUTH will make us free. Jesus is the truth. What He teaches is the truth.
3. Jesus words have no place in those He was speaking to.
4. The listeners were doing the things of THEIR father (satan).
5. They though that being the descendants of Abraham was enough to save them - but it wasn't.
6. IF God were their Father they would listen to Jesus.
7. It's important to know what Jesus was telling them-
8. They were of satan and in him there is no truth.

We are truly free ONLY when we abide in Jesus and obey God's rules and commandments -
otherwise we are slaves of satan.

 

[Robert Pate]

Unfortunately for you, John 8:36 does not speak about being free from obeying God.
In fact, this is what God wants from you.
Unbelief and disobedience go hand in hand and, actually, in the Greek, unbelief and disobedience share the same word base.

Believe and Obey...
Disobey and Disbelieve...

So, let's see what Jesus freed us from...

John 8:31-44

31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
37“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38“I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41“You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

From the above we learn that:

1. If we want to be disciples of Jesus we must abide in His word. (His teachings).
2. The TRUTH will make us free. Jesus is the truth. What He teaches is the truth.
3. Jesus words have no place in those He was speaking to.
4. The listeners were doing the things of THEIR father (satan).
5. They though that being the descendants of Abraham was enough to save them - but it wasn't.
6. IF God were their Father they would listen to Jesus.
7. It's important to know what Jesus was telling them-
8. They were of satan and in him there is no truth.

We are truly free ONLY when we abide in Jesus and obey God's rules and commandments -
otherwise we are slaves of satan.

I disagree. The more you try to obey laws, rules and commandments the more you will sin. Paul said to be free from the law is to be free from sin, Romans 7:1-6.

"But sin taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner concupiscence (Lust) For without the law sin was dead" Romans 7:8.

This is why Jesus nailed the law to his cross, Colossians 2:14. It is also why Paul said, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. Christians are not Pharisees, they are taught and led by the Holy Spirit, John 16:13.

You are practicing Old Covenant law and religion that is under the judgment of God, Galatians 3:10.

 

[Robert Pate]

There will not be any laws, rules or religion in heaven.

We won't need them because there is no need for them. We will love and obey because we want to, not because we have to. This is the difference between faith in Christ and religion. Religious people believe that they must obey the law because they have to. Spirit led believers are obedient because the want to be obedient, not because they have to. A good son does not need laws, rules or religion. A good son loves his father and does not want to shame him. He knows what is required of him and lives accordingly.

 

[Mungo]

There will not be any laws, rules or religion in heaven.

We won't need them because there is no need for them. We will love and obey because we want to, not because we have to. This is the difference between faith in Christ and religion. Religious people believe that they must obey the law because they have to. Spirit led believers are obedient because the want to be obedient, not because they have to. A good son does not need laws, rules or religion. A good son loves his father and does not want to shame him. He knows what is required of him and lives accordingly.

A good father sets boundaries and rules for his children. That is law.

 

[Robert Pate]

A good father sets boundaries and rules for his children. That is law.

A good son does not need boundaries or rules. If you need to be told how to live it is because you are lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mungo, I am not on this Forum to try and prove that you are wrong and I am right. That is not my objective.

I used to be religious just like you. You might say that I was the chief of all Pharisees. When I discovered the liberating power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ all of that changed. I dropped out of the organized church and became separate unto the Lord. The scripture says, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be separate saith the Lord" 2 Corinthians 6:17. This is what I did and what you should do. Jesus is your savior, not the Catholic church.

Complete disobedience to the scriptural commands to assemble in a local assembly. Error has led you away from Christ.The local church is the body of Christ, but your lawless ideas inform you that you can skip out.

 

[Mungo]

A good son does not need boundaries or rules. If you need to be told how to live it is because you are lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

A good son does not need boundaries or rules. If you need to be told how to live it is because you are lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

The issue is not whether a son need them or not but that God has given them.

 

[Iconoclast]

A good son does not need boundaries or rules. If you need to be told how to live it is because you are lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

Jesus was a "Good Son" In fact a perfect Son, and He was a law keeper

 

[Robert Pate]

Jesus was a "Good Son" In fact a perfect Son, and He was a law keeper

Jesus did not fulfill the law for himself. He was already 100% righteous. He fulfilled the law for us, in our name and on our behalf, for our justification.

 

[Mungo]

Jesus did not fulfill the law for himself. He was already 100% righteous. He fulfilled the law for us, in our name and on our behalf, for our justification.

Are you suggesting that Christians cannot sin, or that sinning has no consequences?

 

[Robert Pate]

Are you suggesting that Christians cannot sin, or that sinning has no consequences?

Spiritually speaking, God sees Christians as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. That is going to be difficult for you to believe because of your Catholic religion. Religious people like yourself are trying to do in their flesh what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ.

Sinning has plenty of consequences. Don't do it.

 

[Mungo]

Spiritually speaking, God sees Christians as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Col 2:10 doesn't say God sees Christians as perfect and complete "In Christ"

That is going to be difficult for you to believe because of your Catholic religion. Religious people like yourself are trying to do in their flesh what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ.

There is no need to insult me. You could make your point without doing that.

Sinning has plenty of consequences. Don't do it.

So if a Christian sins there are consequences.
If there are consequences there must be a law that has been broken.
.