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Another Oneness Challenge?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Henry
  • Start date Start date

Are we first baptized in water then the Spirit?

  • Yes that is the way it works

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not sure really

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3
Eve777

I know a man who stopped drinking and changed his whole life around. He is still an Atheist. A changed life does not make you a child of God. Being baptised into his body with the sprit makes you his.

Come on I am not talking such things as quiting a habbit, I am talking about heart changes that go much deaper that merely stopping some habbit, or trying to live better..

A changes life would include a new found love for God, a new found concern for the lostness of those who do not know God, a new found appritiation for Christian values and church gatherings and so on.

You friend may have stopped doing some things, but he was not changed as you say he remained and athiest and in as much he certainly did not claim to know God.

You are always minimizing what ever I say, which what all Oneness folks do. If I say the standards of holiness do not make anyone holy, you say that I do not believe one needs to be holy, if I say one is saved before being baptized you say that I do not think baptism is important. Bla bla bla....

It is not a changed life that makes you a child of God, it being a child of God that changes a life and it is not by being baprized in water that we are made children of God but by faith in the Lord.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received HIm, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name; who were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, but of God.

Oh boy here we go, I have to teach you what the scripture says, but I am sure that you are not going to listen. But I am given the duty by God so I must at least try.

Who did he tell to wait.....baptised believers who had not yet received the Holy Ghost. "Ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you"

Before you ask this sort of question, you need to read the entire body of text. This questoin is a doctrinal based questoin, that is it asked based on what doctrine teachers assuming the doctrine is correct.

Lets see what the bible says.

Back up to Jesus talking in:

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22   And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So, these apostles received the Holy Sprit already, before the book of acts even began. So when you say baptized believers who had not received the Holy Sprit you are wrong, and notice that there is no mention of them speaking in tongues here.

Now, you asked your question based on the idea that they had not yet received the Holy Spirit, but here we learn that they indeed had.

Acts 1:4   And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Ok, talking to the same which He already given the Holy Spirit as we already learned, he said go and wait for the gift from the Father. The refence to the water baptism of John is not to indicate that is all they had so far, because then in John Jesus must have missed. It means something else.

Acts 1:8   But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Ok, the power would come upon them for a reason, and that is to witness Jesus to the wolrd, and that is true today as well. The empowerment of the Spirit is ONLY for the witnessing of Christ to the world.

So, they had already received the Holy Spirit (John 20:21) and now they are told go and wait for the promise of the Father, and that power would come on them to bear witness to Jesus.

Did they receive the Holy Spirit twice? Or is this something else going on here. The truth is clear this was an empowerment to preform and task for the Lord. This is not a part of being saved, but something that being told to saved people would happen soon. So they could do the work they are given to do.

Acts 2:1   And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2   And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3   And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4   And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5   And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6   Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7   And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8   And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9   Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10   Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11   Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Here we have what Jesus said coming to pass, they waited and then the power came on them. They spoke the word of God in the many languages of those in ear shot, who so happened to represent the known world at large.

This is very important to note, that on this day they spoke in known earthly languages which were understood by those around them. As we know by the fact they said "every man heard them speak in his own language" and a list of the languages they spoke is given to us.

Anyone that bables some nonesence that is not an realy language is not having a "
'pentecostal' experience.

So, if you have read this far (and I would be surprised) summerizing.

1. In John they received the Holy Spirit when the Lord breathed on them, nothing said about speaking in toungues.

2. They were instructed after to wait for the power of the Holy Spirit, which was for the witnessing of the Lord to the nations.

3. They received power and witnessed the lord by speaking the wonders of the Lord in the languages of the people that were in ears shot, which ended in many conversions.

So, the so called baptism of the Holy Spirit is when the Lord empower a SAVED believer to witness HIm to the world.

That is your evidence, not the tongues but the witness of that person in boldness for the Lord.
 
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This was an annointing to go and do the job that Jesus was sending them out to do.
The problem here is the infilling of the Holy Ghost had not been given. Jesus had to die and go to the FAther first. Many people receive an annoinitng of the Holy Ghost through out the Bible but not an infilling of the Holy Ghost. NOt the promise that was sent after Jesus died. The Bible clearly says in one scripture that the Holy Ghost had not yet been given....I'll have to look that up for you..Don't have time right now.
 
eve


John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

this was an annointing to go and do the job that Jesus was sending them out to do.
The problem here is the infilling of the Holy Ghost had not been given.

So, when Jesus said "reveive the Holy Spirit" He did not mean what he said he was really saying something else? Sheshhhhhhh

Acts 1:8   But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

In acts the he say they will be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to witness him to the nations, you got it backward.

1. We are filled with the Spirit on faith, at the moment that we believe
2. We are empowered (baptized) by the Holy Spirit when we are called to a task, which would always have to do with witnessing Jesus to the world.

The Bible clearly says in one scripture that the Holy Ghost had not yet been given

No dear in reference to this particular text it does not say they the Holy Spirit had not yet been given, you are left to reconcile what Jesus said in John 20:21 reveive the Holy Spirit.

He said nothing about annoitings or what ever, just receive the Holy Spirit. That is the problem here, how can you reconcile your doctrine to the text with out adding to reading into the text something that is not specifially said.

And Jesus did not say, I annoint thee to go and work for me.

Anyways, I suspect that you did not really read too carefull what I wrote.

Hey, by the way I am going to use that to write a message on interpreting the bible correctly and so I thank you for your help in that, It is going to be a good one.
 
But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) KJV


Jesus is talking to John and Peter and the rest of his apostles here.

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

So If they had already received it, why would he tell them to wait for it?
 
Eve


Jesus was also talking to his deciples when he breated on them and said recieve ye the Holy Ghost.

Sorry but this is how this works,

1. At the very moment of faith, one receives the Holy Spirit.
2. Then later as GOD sees fit the are baptized by the holy Spirit for a job, just as it had always been in times past.

That dear is what the Bible teachers.
 
Henry said:
Let me ask this, not that you will answer. Can a man have faith in Jesus, never be baptized and not even care to try to keep the "holiness standards" and still go to heaven. Is his faith in Jesus alone enough? Yes or NO.

This is one of those revealing questions.... of man's self-centeredness.

".... his.... faith in Jesus?"

The bible says even "our" faith to believe is not of us.

Why were you saved Henry?

cj
 
cj

oh man did you ever read me wrong, I am by no means saying that man has in himself to creat a faith, but on the contrary that faith is given to him by God.

What I was asking is a question based on the Oneness doctrine that it is faith PLUS works such as baptism that saves. Can one who has faith be saved with out being baptized? Based on the doctrine that being saved is faith in cooperation with obedience.

Why was saved? Simply put because God had mercy on me and gave grace to me.

When you read my posting to Oness folks, understand that they are ot typical reflective of my personal beliefs, but are phrased in such ways to challenge Oneness doctrine.
 
. At the very moment of faith, one receives the Holy Spirit.
2. Then later as GOD sees fit the are baptized by the holy Spirit for a job, just as it had always been in times past.

That dear is what the Bible teachers.

No Dear, that is what you teach....Why did the Apostles go and lay hands on people so they could receive the Holy Ghost if they had already received it just by believing?


And why did he tell his apostles to wait for it if they had already received it by believing. Why have a Day of Pentecost? What was that all about?

The Bible clearly teaches that what was seen and heard on the Day of Pentecost was the Promise of the Father,,,,which is the receiving of the Holy Ghost..
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

This is the former rain....on the Day of Pentacost but there will be a latter rain before the end:

28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
.31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

This will be the latter rain.
 
No Dear, that is what you teach....Why did the Apostles go and lay hands on people so they could receive the Holy Ghost if they had already received it just by believing?

Based on what, the doctrine you have been taught or the context of the bible? First when we beleive we recieve the Holy Spirit, then when we are called to service, or drafted as it were, we are baptized in the Holy Spirit for that work.

Then it may be by the laying on of hands.

Got to learn to read in context dear.

And why did he tell his apostles to wait for it if they had already received it by believing. Why have a Day of Pentecost? What was that all about?

You better take that up with Jesus, he said before this pentecost thing as he breathed on them receive the Holy Spirit, you are trying to tell me that he gave them an emowerment of the Spirit but not actually the Spirit.

Why the day of pentecost? Again read in context what Jesus said, he told them to wait and they would be given the power to witness to the nations, and that is what happened on the day of pentecost.

You really really need to learn how to read the bible on context, it is not some crazy puzzel book that you have to put together, start at page ONE that then page TWO and so on.

The bible teaches that when we believe at that very moment we are saved, and that means marked and sealed by the Holy Spirit. ALL BASED ON FAITH ALONE, then after this being saved, we are from time to time called to service.

Just look at Peter how many time does the Spirit come down on him in the book of acts, and others as well. How many times can one be saved? ONCE, so all these other times of the Spirit coming down is something else.
 
Quote:
Doesn't the Bible itself teach you that it is something you can both see, and hear. Why do you think Simon wanted to buy it?


Sorry, but this does not prove that tongues are evidence, we see a person that is filled with joy, the best "eveidence" that I have seen are tears of joy.

Forgot to bring this up:
Now Henry, be reasonable. Do you think anyone in his right mind would offer good money to buy something where the only evidense was joy on someone's face...Get real....he saw and heard more than that and you know it.
 
Eve


I am not saying that there is not something wonderful and powerfull about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I am not as well denying that it happens and it is a great spiritual experience.

What I am saying is that Oneness teaching is wrong.
 
Eve

What about answering my question? How many times is someone baptized in the Holy Spirit?
 
I was only baptised once but I had felt his spirit on me many times before I received it. One baptism.
 
Eve you are still talking about your personal experience. Let me make this clear, I do not care what you experienced it proves nothing. Show me the biblical evidence for this.
 
eve

Interesting ONCE hmm, then why was Peter baptized in the spirit several times?
 
Interesting ONCE hmm, then why was Peter baptized in the spirit several times?

Peter was baptized only once. You misunderstand the difference between being filled with the spirit and being baptized in the Spirit. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost and John reacted within her womb, but she was not baptized in the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost was not yet given.

Do you deny the scripture that says, The Holy Ghost was not yet given until the day of Pentecost? Don't you think Jesus would know if the apostles had received the baptism of the Holy Ghost? Did he not tell them to go and wait for it?

Do you know more than Jesus, Henry?
 
Do you know more than Jesus, Henry?

I thought Jesus was the Holy Spirit? And what more then Jesus do we need? I thought Jesus was the All and All the begining and the end?

I think you are wrong, not the bible dear.
 
And what more then Jesus do we need?


Nothing, if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead, rest in us.



SO, if we have Jesus we don't need the meanderings of a delusional preacher to guide us. We have the Holy Spirit!
 
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