Another Oneness Challenge?

[Henry]

Oneness teaching is that acts 2:38 is the "plan of salvation"

Acts 2:38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The teaching is simple that in answering the question what do we do? Peter said 1. Repent 2. Be baptized in Jesus name 3. And then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. In that order.

often also sited is

John 3 5   Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Used to show that first one is water baptized then secondly they are baptized in the Spirit (though I contend that this has nothing at all to do with baptism)

Ok, so the teaching is that we are first to be baptized in water, in obedience to the Lords command and for our sins to be washed, so that the Holy Spirit will come and dwell in us. Every thing in its propore order.

Well, many of us understand the idea of the bible interpreting itself. And if we find a contrediction the bible is not in error, we are reading something wrong, or reading into the bible our own ideas.

This is that case here, many verses can be USED to say that we are first baptized in water, and then in the Spirit. But we have an intepretive problem with that line of thinking.

Acts 10:46   For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47   Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48   And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter was in a gentiles home, and the Jews who were with where amaze or impressed with the fact that the gentiles has also received the Holy Spirit as they did. And spoke in tongues, which Oneness folk insist is the evidence for having been baptized in the Holy Spirit. So, far according to Oneness teaching these men were certainly baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Heres the problem, they had not been water baptized yet. According to Oneness teaching they should not have the Holy Spirit and be speaking in tongues untill after there sins were washed away.

Oneness also teach that through the entire book of acts, which is the ONLY book they say contains the "plan of salvation" that the message was the same, repent, be baptized and speak in tongues proving you were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

But again we have a problem, that is not what we consistently find in the book of acts.

Acts 16:29   Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30   And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31   And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The man asked what must I do... think about that if in fact we are to do the three things which I have listed, then what happened here?

All Peter said was believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved.

Certainly later they were all baptized, but in both these examples the bible shows us salvation before water baptism.

 

[Henry]

I am not surprised, Oneness folks do not like dirrect challenges.

 

[Rose of Sharon]

What is your fixation with Oneness folks Henry ? It's really rather unhealthy to keep at us like this, it seems as if you have an obsession. Is it your God given duty to expose us? : Go right ahead and give us ALOT of exposure. Thats alright, someone will learn the truth, even from your kind of exposure.
The way you talk , you had enough when you were in a Oneness church and got out. It looks like you'd want to direct your time on other things and let the past go. I think you still , in your heart CANNOT let go.



God bless Henry

: [/i]

P.S. BTW your poll is not acurate. There is no set pattern of whether one is water baptized or spirit baptized. We know what Peter says in Acts , but not everyone is baptized in this order.

 

[Henry]

Rose

There is no set pattern of whether one is water baptized or spirit baptized. We know what Peter says in Acts , but not everyone is baptized in this order.

No set pattern? Well isnt that interesting...

Salvation consists of deliverance from all sin and unrighteousness through the blood of Jesus Christ. The New Testament experience of salvation consists of repentance from sin, water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost, after which the Christian is to live a godly life (Acts 2:36-41). http://www.upci.org/doctrine/apostles.asp#salvation your very own link

You see you are in essence saying that Oneness doctrine then is wrong, according you the misinterpretation of acts 2:38 Oneness teachers say that water baptism is for the remission of sins, and that only AFTER sins are washed away can one be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I geuss you forgot the entire thing about "cleaning your house" or that "there is hidden sin..." And you must have also forgotten that you have insisted many times that one must be born of the water and the Spirit.

Never the less, you missed the point and failed to answer to the issue here.

Acts 10:46   For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47   Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48   And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

Are these people saved? Were they born again? Or did God put his Spirit in insaved sinners, still full of sin? When and how were these people cleansed of sin, so that God could dwell in them?

Acts 16:29   Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30   And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31   And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The question is clear and the answer is straight forward and clear. How do I get saved? Believe on Jesus Christ! Then after this as a secondary thought almost then were baptized, but I can not help but notice that nothing was said about the "plan" as Oneness teach.

So, are you then saying that people can be saved and cleansed of sin before they are water baptized?

Think about the system you are in, one must be cleansed have his house clean as it were, before God will come to him. You have made that clear in one thread were you were explaining that some people do not speak in tongues becuase of hidden sin. And that the Holy Spirit would not enter such a person, untill they "cleaned house"

The way we clean house is to first be baptized in Jesus name, which you say is for the remission or the removal of sins.

At any rate, there is a pattern. Very simple one for that matter, first people believed and by that alone they were saved, and at that very moment the Spirit of God was in them. And then after being saved they were water baptized as sign and seal of the promise they already received bny faith.

 

[Eve777]

How did it happen to you, Henry?

I was baptised on July 26 and exactly one month later to the day, Aug 26, I received the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

 

[Rose of Sharon]

I was baptized in Jesus name Febuary 14th 1971 and received the gift of the Holyghost June 9th 1971. My cousin received the HG in her bedroom, then she was baptized in Jesus name. My mother received the HG , then she was baptized in Jesus name, and my father received the HG in a home bible study and was baptized a week later.



[/i]

 

[Henry]

Eve

How did it happen to you, Henry?

Exerience is not what determines truth, the bible does and what you and Rose said contredict the bible and Onenes doctrine.

Just evading the questions yet again.

These people that were "baptized in the Spirit" before they were saved? Or were they saved? and how were their sins washed so the Spirit would enter them?

I am not interested in "exerience" I am interested in what the bible teaches, and you guys are totall avoiding that all together.

 

[Eve777]

Just evading the questions yet again.

Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed, Henry? simple question.....

 

[Henry]

Eve

Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed, Henry? simple question.....

First of all did you even take the time to read and consider what I wrote at the begining of this thread, the challenge was for you modalist and you are doing all that you can to make this about me.

Are you intending on answering the questions based on the information that I provided or are you merely going to try to shift the focus onto me and my personal experiences?

Acts 10:46   For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47   Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48   And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

According to oneness doctrine acts 2:38 is the "plan of salvation". The teachings is that we are to repent then be baptized in Jesus name for the removial of sins, and then (after these other things) we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit. (you say is evidenced by speaking in tongues always)

So, the question is IF this is true and that is the plan, why then did God put his spirit in those who were not yet water baptized, why did he put his spirit were there was sin? Were these people saved, or does God put his spirit in unsaved people?

As for your question to me;

1. Receiving the Holy Spirit is NOT what oneness people teach, is not evidenced by speaking in tongues and all that. So when you ask me that question based on what Oneness teachers say it means, I say NO.

Not that I have not received the Holy Spirit, but that I do not believe what Oneness doctrine say about that matter to be true.

2. Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the gaurantee of our inheretence until the redemption of the purchased possetion, to the praise and of His glory.

Yes is the answer, I have reveived the Holy Spirit. When I believed and trusted the Lord I reveived of Him his Spirit as promised. The Holy Spirit is my gaurantee untill the day the Lord comes for us all, and on that day as promised by the mark of the Holy Spirit I am going to be in the presence of the Lord forever.

So, in the biblical manner YES I have received the Holy Spirit, becuase I believed. If you then wish to talk about ministorial empowerment by the Spirit that is an entirely different matter.

Now, will address the challeng in a bibilcal manner?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Henry,

I have a question for you:

According to the Bible, are we saved by grace or works?

I look forward to your response. :D

 

[Henry]

Nocturnal_Principal_

You are new aren't you, other wise you would know my answer to your question.

The bible teaches that we are dead in sins, and that in the natural we have no desire to seek after God.

We can not be saved by doing works if 1. we are dead and 2. we have no desire to. Not only that works do not justify anyways, the law has never made anyone right with God, it only causes us to know we are not right with God.

In the end we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Alone. It is all done by Him and kept by Him.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Henry,

You are new aren't you

You are correct. Based on your response the Oneness argument is wrong.

I knew they were wrong, just wanted to know your point of view on the matter of salvation.

Oh yeah about this:

Nocturnal_Principal_

You could have typed "Nocturnal Principal X," or you could just call me one of the listed below:
NPX
Nocturnal
NocX
Noc
Night (Since nocturnal is the German word for night)

Thanks for your response; I was hoping you would say you believed in "saved by grace alone," scripturally that is the only correct point of view.

 

[Henry]

Cool, glad that you see the error in the Oneness theolgy of salvation. Any gospel that is not the gospel of grace is no gospel at all.

 

[Rose of Sharon]

Who says Oneness Apostolics do not beleive in grace? Jesus gave his grace on the cross for everyone...........

 

[Henry]

Rose

Who says Oneness Apostolics do not beleive in grace? Jesus gave his grace on the cross for everyone...........

http://www.upci.org/about/index.asp

The UPCI holds that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works Faith in Jesus is the means by which a person is justified. At the same time, a sinner must believe the gospel; he is commanded to repent of his sinful life, to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ, and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 4:12; 8:12-17; 10:43-48; 19:1-6). Thus the various aspects of faith and obedience work together in God's grace to reconcile us to God.


The UPCI does. You see we are not using the terms in the same way, when your doctrine says "faith and obedience work together in God's grace" you have contredicted what we mean when we say saved by grace. Grace is apart from works of any kind that we do, and if we do anything at all, it is not Grace.

Lets take a look at this statement, it starts off OK "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works" but then it departs from grace to works by listing the THINGS we must do to be saved "At the same time, a sinner must believe the gospel; he is commanded..."

And it ends in a contradiction, "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works" then saying "thus the various aspects of faith and obedience work together in God's grace to reconcile us to God."


Aspects of faith? Please show me in the bible this teaching that faith has various aspects. It is not there, faith means to trust in Jesus.

This is typical of Oneness teaching, it starts out sounding orthodoxed then flips around and teaches somethig contrary to orthodoxed teaching.

Let me ask this, not that you will answer. Can a man have faith in Jesus, never be baptized and not even care to try to keep the "holiness standards" and still go to heaven. Is his faith in Jesus alone enough? Yes or NO.

 

[Henry]

Oh yea and the UPC and UPCI did not even exist untill the early 1900's not ever close to Apostolic times, and not even close to what the apostles taught. NOT Apostolic not even close.

As I have said, out house church is MUCH MUCH closer then you are to doing things as the Apostles did.

Yet we are not apostolic, becuase that is period of time which has past and there is not such thing as an apostolic church today, no more then we could say there is a midevil church, the time has past. The Apostolic days are long gone.

 

[Eve777]

I commend you for your House Church but any place where two or more are gathered in his name, is his church. It could be a parking lot and oft times around here it is....more true worship and leading someone to Jesus goes on after church than in church.


You must be baptized in the water and the spirit. Now you know when you were baptized in the water, don't you think you would know when you were baptized in the spirit? Doesn't the Bible itself teach you that it is something you can both see, and hear. Why do you think Simon wanted to buy it? He must have seen or heard something. Why do you think it was? Those in the Upper room appeared drunk.....

"they spoke with other tongues and magnified God"......


"If you have not his spirit, you are none of his"........can you honestly say, you have it, Henry, beyond a shadow of a doubt?

 

[Henry]

Eve

You must be baptized in the water and the spirit. Now you know when you were baptized in the water, don't you think you would know when you were baptized in the spirit?

Must be for what? To be saved one only needs to beleive and Jesus said NOTHING else. Water baptism is only a sign of what has already happened. When a saved person is baptized he is already saved, already filled with the spirit of God becuase of faith alone.

Now, I can know that I filled with the Spirit becuase he is working in me. And I can see that work of the Spirit in others by their changed and changing lives. But not because God should prove a thing to me, but rather I am blessed to be able observe what God does in the lives of people.

Doesn't the Bible itself teach you that it is something you can both see, and hear. Why do you think Simon wanted to buy it?

Sorry, but this does not prove that tongues are evidence, we see a person that is filled with joy, the best "eveidence" that I have seen are tears of joy.

"they spoke with other tongues and magnified God"

In the languafes of the people that lived in the area, not in babbling nonesence.

"If you have not his spirit, you are none of his"........can you honestly say, you have it, Henry, beyond a shadow of a doubt?

I do not have to prove that I have the Spirit by babbling nonesence, so someone like you can say "WOW". And this insinuation that I am not saved is really old, I know that I am saved by grace and through faith alone PERIOD.


Tongues are not THE evidence of being saved. A changed life is.

 

[Eve777]

A changed life is.

I know a man who stopped drinking and changed his whole life around. He is still an Atheist. A changed life does not make you a child of God. Being baptised into his body with the sprit makes you his.


Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.


Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence


Who did he tell to wait.....baptised believers who had not yet received the Holy Ghost. "Ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you"

Did you feel the Holy Ghost when he came upon you? They did. I did...Many others have, then and now.
[/u]

 

[Eve777]

In the languafes of the people that lived in the area, not in babbling nonesence

1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:

Because he didn't understand what he was saying, didn't stop Paul from praying in the spirit in tongues. And since he didn't give a prophecy or speak in tongues in church, we know it was not the Gift of tongues he was referring too.

1Cr 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:


1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church.......

he didn't speak in tongues in church..where did he use them then? In his prayer life at thome. maybe.




It was a prayer tongue that he received when he recieved the Holy Ghost. He said, "Thank God I speak in tongues more than ye all"...why would he want to do that, Henry if he didn't understand what he was saying? Maybe it didn't matter...maybe he was praying to God and God understood..How about that?