AnotherTemple???

[Eventide]

The bible explicitly talks about the Temple in Rev 11.. but of course many choose to spiritualize the entire book away and/or pretend that it's already happened.. and yet the majority of the book (Ch 4-22) pertain to the things which shall be hereafter.. and that's hereafter the things which are.. as outlined in Ch 2-3 with respect to the church of God.

That was simple.

 

[reba]

Can ya post some scriptures to go with your thoughts?

 

[Sam21]

When Paul wrote,"so ALL of Israel will be saved", he had already explained that PART of Israel was already being saved, "at this present time also there is a remnant(of Israel)according to the election of grace". Folks, those of Israel who trust in Christ ,both then and now, are the ELECT OF ISRAEL...and they are part of the church. By definition, a Jew who believes in Jesus Christ is one of the ELECT OF ISRAEL. According to Paul, at a time in the future, what is left of Israel will come to faith in Christ. It is impossible to completely separate the church from Israel because the church has always been composed of the elect of Israel and the elect of the gentiles,therefore the idea that Jesus post-trib return was for the elect of Israel and not the church is absurd because the church is composed of the elect of Israel and the elect of the gentiles. There is no such thing as a church that does not contain the elect of Israel.

 

[Lehigh3]

When Paul wrote,"so ALL of Israel will be saved", he had already explained that PART of Israel was already being saved, "at this present time also there is a remnant(of Israel)according to the election of grace". Folks, those of Israel who trust in Christ ,both then and now, are the ELECT OF ISRAEL...and they are part of the church. By definition, a Jew who believes in Jesus Christ is one of the ELECT OF ISRAEL. According to Paul, at a time in the future, what is left of Israel will come to faith in Christ. It is impossible to completely separate the church from Israel because the church has always been composed of the elect of Israel and the elect of the gentiles,therefore the idea that Jesus post-trib return was for the elect of Israel and not the church is absurd because the church is composed of the elect of Israel and the elect of the gentiles. There is no such thing as a church that does not contain the elect of Israel.

Amen.
Paul identified who "all Israel" was,
Romans 9:6-8 NKJV,
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[a] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.Footnotes:

1. Romans 9:7 Genesis 21:12

And the O.T. patriarchs are represented in our New Jerusalem. As well as the apostles of the Lamb.

 

[Eventide]

It is impossible to completely separate the church from Israel because the church has always been composed of the elect of Israel and the elect of the gentiles,therefore the idea that Jesus post-trib return was for the elect of Israel and not the church is absurd because the church is composed of the elect of Israel and the elect of the gentiles. There is no such thing as a church that does not contain the elect of Israel.

So if what you say is true, it will be easy to show at least one scripture which teaches that the Israel of God is the church of God..

Can you do that ?

 

[reba]

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Eventide]

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Reba.. does this (in your opinion) teach plainly that the Israel of God is the church of God..?

IF SO, Then what's the mystery pertaining to Israel that Pauls warns Christians about ignoring ?.. you haven't commented on what you believe Romans 11:25-29 means..

Peter is an Apostle to the circumcision.. He's writing to the scattered tribes of Israel isn't he.. ? Does he refer to them as Christians..

 

[Enveida]

OK,but Paul described the place that was considered the actual dwelling place of God, it was the term he used to described the indwelling Holy Spirit in the individual christian and in the church in general.

The verse you refer to is;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:4

This verse is part of a prophecy made by Paul and this is the context that must accompany its understanding - this is proclaiming a future physical event.

First the son of perdition will 'exalteth himself above all that is called God' this will include all heathen gods as well as our Heavenly Father and His Son.

The son of perdition is the leader of those who are under the delusion and is empowered by Satan. Satan knows the truth because he knows scripture but he denies it, defies it, twists it and misquotes it, thereby encouraging all to deny the truth of it and fall under the wrath of God.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.. Mat 24:24

Satan is cunning and for the son of perdition to convince Christians and be 'as God' and sit 'in the temple of God' he must replace Jesus and the Father, Almighty God who, are the temple of God.

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Rev 21:22

So the son of perdition will appear to be our Saviour, and further, Almighty God. This is how the son of perdition will 'as God' sit 'in the temple of God' as far as Christians are concerned.

Again, remembering that Satan knows scripture, we know that because of the revelation given to John, part of this deception must involve the physical place that Jesus will return to at his second coming. The son of perdition will also sit in a physical temple at this place thus fulfilling all prophecies concerning him.

Another aspect of the prophecy which points to this is that the son of perdition must convince the whole world, the whole world is not Christian. It is carnal, fleshly, not of the Spirit, and so he and the world's deceived population will naturally look towards a physical temple that can be understood by the world to be the place of the seat of God.

 

[Joe67]

The verse you refer to is;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:4

This verse is part of a prophecy made by Paul and this is the context that must accompany its understanding - this is proclaiming a future physical event.

First the son of perdition will 'exalteth himself above all that is called God' this will include all heathen gods as well as our Heavenly Father and His Son.

The son of perdition is the leader of those who are under the delusion and is empowered by Satan. Satan knows the truth because he knows scripture but he denies it, defies it, twists it and misquotes it, thereby encouraging all to deny the truth of it and fall under the wrath of God.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.. Mat 24:24

Satan is cunning and for the son of perdition to convince Christians and be 'as God' and sit 'in the temple of God' he must replace Jesus and the Father, Almighty God who, are the temple of God.

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Rev 21:22

So the son of perdition will appear to be our Saviour, and further, Almighty God. This is how the son of perdition will 'as God' sit 'in the temple of God' as far as Christians are concerned.

Again, remembering that Satan knows scripture, we know that because of the revelation given to John, part of this deception must involve the physical place that Jesus will return to at his second coming. The son of perdition will also sit in a physical temple at this place thus fulfilling all prophecies concerning him.

Another aspect of the prophecy which points to this is that the son of perdition must convince the whole world, the whole world is not Christian. It is carnal, fleshly, not of the Spirit, and so he and the world's deceived population will naturally look towards a physical temple that can be understood by the world to be the place of the seat of God.

Enveida,

Yes, and to those who have his image in their imaginations, they will believe that his is God, not only by the form presented, but also by the vain deceit and philosophy that he will teach as true science, working miracles to validate the science.

The love of the truth leads us to suffer shame for the name of Jesus. This is our shield against the darts of the wicked one. Those who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer the oppositions/contradictions/ridicule of those who believe the false science. A delusion is believed when it is seen and accepted as the truth. Those who seek after miracles/signs will accept the miracles as confirmation that the science is true.

Joe

 

[Enveida]

Thanks for helping me understand you better!

Again i ask what makes a Jew a Jew? How much Jewish blood is needed to be a part of ALL ISRAEL?

Some how i get the feeling that the meaning of the names of the 12 tribes has some kind of value and some one reaplaced someone again that would be another thread....

According to Judaism 101

"A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship."

A person is Jewish if their maternal line is Jewish.

Christians have been grafted into the vine, so Christians are part of Spiritual Israel whereas at present not all Jews are part of Spiritual Israel.

 

[reba]

Reba.. does this (in your opinion) teach plainly that the Israel of God is the church of God..?

IF SO, Then what's the mystery pertaining to Israel that Pauls warns Christians about ignoring ?.. you haven't commented on what you believe Romans 11:25-29 means..

Peter is an Apostle to the circumcision.. He's writing to the scattered tribes of Israel isn't he.. ? Does he refer to them as Christians..

It sure does to me....


1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

In Scripture The word christian is only used 2 times and christians only once


I will check into Rom 11 and post again

 

[reba]

eventide

Paul is warrening the gentile Christians to not be so high and mighty. God has blinded the Jews bringing in the way of Salvation of man through them… And a time will come when they will see. He , God, does not stop loving the Jews just because he loves you too. There will be a time when Jew and gentile, gentile and Jew will be of the same root which is Christ

Here in Rom 11 I see the beginning of the 2 sides ( Jew and gentile) becoming one. His body

 

[Eventide]

eventide

Paul is warrening the gentile Christians to not be so high and mighty.

While this is true, it doesn't address the primary warning, which is being IGNORANT (or ignoring) the MYSTERY pertaining to ISRAEL.

The primary context of Romans 9-11 is the NATION of Israel..

God has blinded the Jews bringing in the way of Salvation of man through them… And a time will come when they will see. He , God, does not stop loving the Jews just because he loves you too. There will be a time when Jew and gentile, gentile and Jew will be of the same root which is Christ

I think that it's important to understand that the nation of Israel is blinded IN PART.. ie, they are partially blinded.. and we know that any Israelite can become a member of the body of Christ by faith in Jesus, just as any GENTILE can.. and so it's important to understand the timing of this partial blinding.. UNTIL the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

IMO, the partial blindness is with respect to that nation and its ordinances pertaining to them, and their ministry to the LORD in all things... because again, the whole context of Romans 9-11 is with respect to the nation of Israel.

It doesn't mean that all JEWS are blind to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and Saviour of the world.. because many DO believe, and they are therefore members of the body of Christ, which is His church, and which is being built upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the Son of God.

The NATION of ISRAEL rejects that.. the gospel, and that is why THEY are ENEMIES concerning the GOSPEL.. and yet that nation is beloved by God because of its Fathers.. the countless patriarchs of Israel mentioned throughout the OT and NT... those who trusted in the promises of God long before Jesus came onto the seen.

So this is what the MYSTERY is.. that the nation is partially blinded until God calls in the fulness of the GENTILES.. and then we're told that the deliverer shall come from SION and He will turn ungodliness from JACOB..

Remember Jacob... the one who wrestled with God all night.. the one who was deceived into believing that the son of his old age was dead.. and later in his old age learned that he was ALIVE and RULER over all.. ? ?

Remember JACOB.. the one who had his name changed to ISRAEL in the morning of that Day, when the Sun rose upon him.. after he wrestled with God all night.. ?

Here in Rom 11 I see the beginning of the 2 sides ( Jew and gentile) becoming one. His body

Ultimately ALL THINGS will be gathered together in ONE, even in CHRIST.. things on earth and things in Heaven..

ISRAEL is an EARTHLY entity with earthly ordinances... the CHURCH is a heavenly entity with heavenly promises.. and our citizenship IS in HEAVEN.. not on earth.. If I have told you of earthly things and ye do not believe, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things..?

The gospel teaches us that when the Lord comes again and then sits upon the throne of His glory, that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL.. that's a future promise in the word of God.

The Revelation shows us that there will be twelve thousand sealed from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.. and it also mentions a multitude which could not be numbered from every tribe, nation, and tongue.. there is clearly a distinction here between the two.. and we also know from countless OT prophecy that the nation of Israel will endure a severe tribulation in the TIME OF THE END.. Daniel 12 aligns perfectly with Revelation 12 concerning Israel being with child (born again) and then delivered in the wilderness for a period of 1260 days or three and a half years..

In my estimation... the evidence is completely overwhelming and beyond dispute that the LORD is going to save Israel in the end and that THAT NATION will once again minister to Him in all things right here on earth.. when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. in that Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.. which shall be a thousand years.. when the LORD does come again He will divide the sheep from the goats and His sheep will inherit the Kingdom at that time..

In contrast... Amillennialism believes that this present evil world is the kingdom of God, and that there is no future kingdom because it's happening right now.. that misses the forest for the trees imo... but nonetheless, multitudes embrace this doctrine and therefore miss the distinction between the Israel of God which is earthly, and the church of God, which is heavenly, and is His future bride to be.

 

[Sam21]

Sounds good, but someone always has to find a fly in the ointment. Folks there is no scriptural justification for allowing Christ rejecting Jews to build a Temple of God. Paul did not say in Thess that the antichrist would enter a pseudo Temple of God, Paul said that the antichrist would actually enter "the Temple of God" and the particular word Paul used would refer to the Holy of Holies,NOT THE BUILDING. There was another word used to describe the physical building and that is not what Paul used. Why did Paul not use the word that would describe the physical building because it was still standing at that time? Paul actually described the dwelling place of God at a time when Paul was convinced that God no longer was dwelling in the earthly Temple of God but in His church.
My point is, the Jews building a third Temple of God for the antichrist to profane, has a serious roadblock, mainly that Christ rejecting Jews cannot build a Temple of God...it simply is not possible even if the idea seems to fit with what most of us believe will occur.

 

[jasoncran]

Sounds good, but someone always has to find a fly in the ointment. Folks there is no scriptural justification for allowing Christ rejecting Jews to build a Temple of God. Paul did not say in Thess that the antichrist would enter a pseudo Temple of God, Paul said that the antichrist would actually enter "the Temple of God" and the particular word Paul used would refer to the Holy of Holies,NOT THE BUILDING. There was another word used to describe the physical building and that is not what Paul used. Why did Paul not use the word that would describe the physical building because it was still standing at that time? Paul actually described the dwelling place of God at a time when Paul was convinced that God no longer was dwelling in the earthly Temple of God but in His church.
My point is, the Jews building a third Temple of God for the antichrist to profane, has a serious roadblock, mainly that Christ rejecting Jews cannot build a Temple of God...it simply is not possible even if the idea seems to fit with what most of us believe will occur.

so when did the temple get built and the jews flee to the wilderness per the abomonation of desolation.

when will ezekeil 37 be fulfilled

if the exiles returned was that fulfillment then list all the tribes that returned to rebuild zerubabbels temple.

 

[Vic C.]

Sounds good, but someone always has to find a fly in the ointment. Folks there is no scriptural justification for allowing Christ rejecting Jews to build a Temple of God. Paul did not say in Thess that the antichrist would enter a pseudo Temple of God, Paul said that the antichrist would actually enter "the Temple of God" and the particular word Paul used would refer to the Holy of Holies,NOT THE BUILDING. There was another word used to describe the physical building and that is not what Paul used. Why did Paul not use the word that would describe the physical building because it was still standing at that time? Paul actually described the dwelling place of God at a time when Paul was convinced that God no longer was dwelling in the earthly Temple of God but in His church.
My point is, the Jews building a third Temple of God for the antichrist to profane, has a serious roadblock, mainly that Christ rejecting Jews cannot build a Temple of God...it simply is not possible even if the idea seems to fit with what most of us believe will occur.

Man, I MUST repeat this post!

 

[Vic C.]

so when did the temple get built and the jews flee to the wilderness per the abomonation of desolation.

when will ezekeil 37 be fulfilled

if the exiles returned was that fulfillment then list all the tribes that returned to rebuild zerubabbels temple.

Jason, take a moment out to read this:

Ezekiel - Chapter 37 - Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org

 

[jasoncran]

i know that is the problem i have with your view of endtimes. every thing is spiritualised.

i ask that as when you look at zeke, he died just after daniel when he was captured. thus of the book was prophetic of the exilic return.

god speaks about bringing them back to the land.

we christians never had land to be brought back into.

he has a point to that, but i disagree in that they dont have land in your view.

trust me as a gentile, you havent a clue to how 'programmed' the jew is to his culture even when they are an athiest.

think about this,

koine greek is dead, latin is dead, but hebrew then and now hasnt changed much.

we see some changes but not like koine greek and greek of today.

 

[reba]

While this is true, it doesn't address the primary warning, which is being IGNORANT (or ignoring) the MYSTERY pertaining to ISRAEL.

The primary context of Romans 9-11 is the NATION of Israel..

I think that it's important to understand that the nation of Israel is blinded IN PART.. ie, they are partially blinded.. and we know that any Israelite can become a member of the body of Christ by faith in Jesus, just as any GENTILE can.. and so it's important to understand the timing of this partial blinding.. UNTIL the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

yup

IMO, the partial blindness is with respect to that nation and its ordinances pertaining to them, and their ministry to the LORD in all things... because again, the whole context of Romans 9-11 is with respect to the nation of Israel.

I dont get what your saying here

It doesn't mean that all JEWS are blind to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and Saviour of the world.. because many DO believe, and they are therefore members of the body of Christ, which is His church, and which is being built upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the Son of God.

Any person is not saved or unsave because of his natioinality or birth.

The NATION of ISRAEL rejects that.. the gospel, and that is why THEY are ENEMIES concerning the GOSPEL.. and yet that nation is beloved by God because of its Fathers.. the countless patriarchs of Israel mentioned throughout the OT and NT... those who trusted in the promises of God long before Jesus came onto the seen.

Most of the folks in "that generation" rejected Him if you reject Him you will reject the gospel

So this is what the MYSTERY is.. that the nation is partially blinded until God calls in the fulness of the GENTILES.. and then we're told that the deliverer shall come from SION and He will turn ungodliness from JACOB..

Remember Jacob... the one who wrestled with God all night.. the one who was deceived into believing that the son of his old age was dead.. and later in his old age learned that he was ALIVE and RULER over all.. ? ?

Remember JACOB.. the one who had his name changed to ISRAEL in the morning of that Day, when the Sun rose upon him.. after he wrestled with God all night.. ?

yup know the story well

Ultimately ALL THINGS will be gathered together in ONE, even in CHRIST.. things on earth and things in Heaven..

yup as one

ISRAEL is an EARTHLY entity with earthly ordinances... the CHURCH is a heavenly entity with heavenly promises.. and our citizenship IS in HEAVEN.. not on earth.. If I have told you of earthly things and ye do not believe, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things..?

A CHristian person of Jewish ansistry ihas citizenship in heaven correct?

The gospel teaches us that when the Lord comes again and then sits upon the throne of His glory, that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL.. that's a future promise in the word of God.

you read the above in a litural sense i dont

The Revelation shows us that there will be twelve thousand sealed from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.. and it also mentions a multitude which could not be numbered from every tribe, nation, and tongue.. there is clearly a distinction here between the two.. and we also know from countless OT prophecy that the nation of Israel will endure a severe tribulation in the TIME OF THE END.. Daniel 12 aligns perfectly with Revelation 12 concerning Israel being with child (born again) and then delivered in the wilderness for a period of 1260 days or three and a half years..

We dont agree When i hear or read about the 1260 days my mind asks the question how long was Christ's earthly ministry?

In my estimation... the evidence is completely overwhelming and beyond dispute that the LORD is going to save Israel in the end and that THAT NATION will once again minister to Him in all things right here on earth.. when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. in that Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.. which shall be a thousand years.. when the LORD does come again He will divide the sheep from the goats and His sheep will inherit the Kingdom at that time..

What makes an Israelie an Israelie or Israelite or Jew What is about them that makes them Jewish.... how much of All Israel is All? He says His kingdom is not of this world. Jesus is King now He was born a King

In contrast... Amillennialism believes that this present evil world is the kingdom of God, and that there is no future kingdom because it's happening right now.. that misses the forest for the trees imo... but nonetheless, multitudes embrace this doctrine and therefore miss the distinction between the Israel of God which is earthly, and the church of God, which is heavenly, and is His future bride to be.

I believe He is King I believe He is KING of Kings. Will He return and His kingdom be different. yup

 

[jasoncran]

While this is true, it doesn't address the primary warning, which is being IGNORANT (or ignoring) the MYSTERY pertaining to ISRAEL.

The primary context of Romans 9-11 is the NATION of Israel..





yup



I dont get what your saying here




Any person is not saved or unsave because of his natioinality or birth.

Most of the folks in "that generation" rejected Him if you reject Him you will reject the gospel



yup know the story well

yup as one


A CHristian person of Jewish ansistry ihas citizenship in heaven correct?


you read the above in a litural sense i dont


We dont agree When i hear or read about the 1260 days my mind asks the question how long was Christ's earthly ministry?



What makes an Israelie an Israelie or Israelite or Jew What is about them that makes them Jewish.... how much of All Israel is All? He says His kingdom is not of this world. Jesus is King now He was born a King


I believe He is King I believe He is KING of Kings. Will He return and His kingdom be different. yup

a jew is one from the tribe of benjamin or judah. all others are isrealites.