Endtimes Temple?

[RandyK]

I’m not a pretriber.

I'm not saying you are. However, Dispensationalism has had an inordinate influence in all of American eschatology. We assume many prophecies are to be interpreted "their way" without thinking because their way of thinking has seeped into our consciousness.

However The Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, are not about the events of 70 AD.

This is what I mean--you *think* that the Olivet Discourse is not about the events of 70 AD. But I think it actually is. You may be getting this notion, that the Olivet Discourse is primarily about the eschaton from Dispensationalist teachings?

And so the Church Fathers also thought that the Olivet Discourse was firstly and primarily about the events of Jesus' generation. So you're not just disagreeing with me--you're also disagreeing with the Church Fathers, and with many, many other biblical scholars.

The Olivet Discourse, contextually is about His coming and the end of the age.

The 2nd Coming is the lesser part of the context for this Discourse. The main part is about the fall of the Temple structure--every stone. But when you get this dogmatic, I don't think we'll do anything more than talk past each other. You simply have to recognize that what I'm saying is true--the primary and initial context for this Discourse was the *fall of the Temple!*

Get back with me when you can acknowledge this openly and boldly... Otherwise, I don't think we can come to any sort of agreement.

 

[Elijah7777]

I’m not a pretriber.

Most of the people I knew that were pre trib, I can not find them anymore. So that must mean something. I am pretty good at finding people. I had a cousin from 50 years ago and I found him. At least I talked to his wife.

 

[Elijah7777]

Dispensationalism has had an inordinate influence in all of American eschatology.

It is like Evolution. It is far from perfect but it is the best explaination they have right now.

 

[JLB]

This is what I mean--you *think* that the Olivet Discourse is not about the events of 70 AD.

I’m getting the truth from the words of scripture.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:1-4

As we see the events of Zechariah 14 are about the Day of the LORD; the Second coming of Christ, not the events of 70 AD.

The armies that surround Jerusalem are gathered by Him so He can destroy them.

That mountain will be split in two and become a valley when He returns, that didn’t happen in 70 AD. It’s still a mountain today.

During the events of 70 AD the LORD did not fight against the Roman army.


Jesus was teaching from Zechariah 14 in His Olivet Discourse, not the events of 70 AD.



Did Jesus fight against the Roman army in 70 AD?

 

[Elijah7777]

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,

The Mount of Olives sits near a major fault line in the Jordan Rift Valley, which is part of the Dead Sea Transform—a geological boundary between the African and Arabian tectonic plates. This fault system has caused earthquakes throughout history, and some biblical scholars link it to prophecies about seismic events in Jerusalem.

In Zechariah 14:4, the prophet describes the Mount of Olives splitting in two, which some interpret as a future earthquake triggered by divine intervention. Geologists note that the region’s tectonic activity makes such an event scientifically plausible.

Again more scientific evidence that shows the Bible is true.

 

[RandyK]

I’m getting the truth from the words of scripture.

Okay, you're *ignoring* the words of Scripture that indicate this Discourse began with Jesus' statement that the temple would be demolished. When was it demolished? It was demolished in *Jesus' generation,* in 70 AD. So, are you going by *these words of Scripture,* or are you just ignoring them?

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:1-4

As we see the events of Zechariah 14 are about the Day of the LORD; the Second coming of Christ, not the events of 70 AD.

The armies that surround Jerusalem are gathered by Him so He can destroy them.

That mountain will be split in two and become a valley when He returns, that didn’t happen in 70 AD. It’s still a mountain today.

During the events of 70 AD the LORD did not fight against the Roman army.


Jesus was teaching from Zechariah 14 in His Olivet Discourse, not the events of 70 AD.



Did Jesus fight against the Roman army in 70 AD?

The events of the end are comparable to the events of Jesus' day. Jesus intended to compare them, because the judgment that came against Israel, the People of God, will one day come against many former Christian nations. The fact they compare should not cause you to conflate them.

 

[RandyK]

It is like Evolution. It is far from perfect but it is the best explaination they have right now.

Dispensationalism is *not,* in my opinion, anywhere close to the "best explanation. ;)
But I get your point. It is the loudest proponent of Futurism in some places in the world, like here my country, the US. And I'm a Futurist.

So I support Dispensationalism up to a point. But is it good where it veers off the path? Not at all!

 

[JLB]

Okay, you're *ignoring* the words of Scripture that indicate this Discourse began with Jesus' statement that the temple would be demolished.

Could you please quote the scripture that says this?

 

[JLB]

Okay, you're *ignoring* the words of Scripture that indicate this Discourse began with Jesus' statement that the temple would be demolished. When was it demolished? It was demolished in *Jesus' generation,* in 70 AD. So, are you going by *these words of Scripture,* or are you just ignoring them?

What words am I ignoring?

Let’s discuss the words of scripture and we will see who is ignoring scripture and context.


I have shown that the passage from Luke 21 that’s says…

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Luke 21:20

Refers to the day of the LORD, the Second Coming of Christ which is from
Zechariah 14.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:1-2

 

[JLB]

The events of the end are comparable to the events of Jesus' day. Jesus intended to compare them, because the judgment that came against Israel, the People of God, will one day come against many former Christian nations. The fact they compare should not cause you to conflate them.

Can you answer my question?

Did Jesus fight against the Roman army in 70 AD?

 

[RandyK]

Can you answer my question?

Did Jesus fight against the Roman army in 70 AD?

If he had gone to heaven, and if he sat on the right hand of God Almighty, then he may have had something to do with determining Israel's judgment. In doing so, he did not fight against the Roman army, but directed them to invade Jerusalem, who had committed the worst kind of apostasy.

 

[RandyK]

What words am I ignoring?

Well, now you're ignoring *my words!* I gave you the words that you were ignoring, and you seem to have ignored that? From post #66--just a little ways above...

Okay, you're *ignoring* the words of Scripture that indicate this Discourse began with Jesus' statement that the temple would be demolished. When was it demolished? It was demolished in *Jesus' generation,* in 70 AD. So, are you going by *these words of Scripture,* or are you just ignoring them?

Do you know what these words were? Of course you do!

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
Mark 13.1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
Luke 21.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

 

[JLB]

If he had gone to heaven, and if he sat on the right hand of God Almighty, then he may have had something to do with determining Israel's judgment. In doing so, he did not fight against the Roman army, but directed them to invade Jerusalem, who had committed the worst kind of apostasy.

That’s not an answer.

Here is what will happen to the armies that Jesus will fight against.

And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12


Did the Roman soldiers suffer this from the LORD in 70 AD?


Please be honest.

 

[JLB]

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Thank you for posting this.

This explains why you are opposed to what I am saying.

My comments have been as such…

Jesus was teaching from Zechariah 14 in His Olivet Discourse, not the events of 70 AD.

What you posted is not the Olivet discourse.

What you posted were words from Jesus while in the Temple area before He and his disciples went to the mount of Olives, where Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse in response to this question:

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3

Jesus taught about His coming and the end of the age in the Olivet Discourse, which is described in Zechariah 14.

Not the events of 70 AD.

 

[Elijah7777]

Dispensationalism is *not,* in my opinion, anywhere close to the "best explanation. ;)
But I get your point.

Many study Bibles are built on a dispensationalist framework, meaning new Christians are often introduced to doctrine that may shape their understanding in specific ways. As a result, it's no surprise that many believers find themselves confused about what the Bible truly says. I once believed I was reading Scripture without outside influence, only to later realize how much interpretation had been subtly guided by theological biases.

 

[Elijah7777]

Jesus taught about His coming and the end of the age in the Olivet Discourse, which is described in Zechariah 14.

Jesus spoke about the end of two ages simultaneously, which has led to confusion for many. At the time, people were primarily concerned about the destruction of the temple. They didn’t yet understand that a new era—the Church Age—was coming. When the Holy Spirit was given on the Day of Pentecost, it took them by surprise. Some thought the disciples were drunk and they were on new wine. They also struggled with the idea that Gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit. Even the apostles continued ministering to the Jewish people, while Paul was specifically called to preach to the Gentiles. This is why circumcision became a major issue in the early Church. Even Paul had Timothy circumcised even though in general he was not as pro circumcision as the disciples were.

Galatians 2:9 – Paul notes that James, Peter (Cephas), and John focused on the circumcised (Jews), while he and Barnabas were sent to the Gentiles.

 

[RandyK]

Many study Bibles are built on a dispensationalist framework, meaning new Christians are often introduced to doctrine that may shape their understanding in specific ways. As a result, it's no surprise that many believers find themselves confused about what the Bible truly says. I once believed I was reading Scripture without outside influence, only to later realize how much interpretation had been subtly guided by theological biases.

Right, John Darby was friends with the guy who made the very popular American Scofield Reference Bible. It contained within its notes a new eschatology called "Dispensationalism." Now, we have a whole generation who thinks the Bible teaches Dispensationalism! Go figure!

 

[for_his_glory]

The 613 commandments, later developed in rabbinic literature, were not formally codified during Jesus’ time. Many followed the letter of the law but missed its true intent—something Jesus often challenged.

Paul, much like David, sought wisdom from Scripture, though he likely did not have personal copies. The Law and Prophets were read aloud in synagogues, which is why Paul often said, "It is written," even if he didn’t recall the exact passage.

The 613 laws are codified in order of how God gave them beginning with Moses and then added to them found written in the Torah just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices,festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. These are that of the old covenant with Israel, but yet became more of a ritual then that of the importance of each one.

All the 613 mitzvah (commandments) are found in the Torah also known as the five books of Moses. The Torah, being written on scrolls, were only contained in the Temple in Jerusalem and only read by the Rabbis. These were laws and ordinances for governing the Israelites.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.


The break down of all 613 laws can be read on this website and scripture for each one

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree with much of that except I don't think the Abomination of Desolation mentioned in the Olivet Discourse is the Antichrist. Only a couple of Church Fathers believed that, including Irenaeus and his disciple Hippolytus. These were important Church Fathers, but an extreme minority among them.

There is a reason the vast number of Church Fathers felt the AoD was something associated with the Roman desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Dan 9 specifically pointed in that direction when it indicated the AoD followed the "cutting off" of Christ, resulting in the "people of the ruler to come" desolating "the city and the sanctuary." That has to be, I feel, the Roman Army in 70 AD.

There have been many desolation's throughout history. During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice destroying both Temples, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The last time, which is yet future, will be when the last antichrist/man of lawlessness/false prophet, 2Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1John 2:18-27, will come to rule in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years causing all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death by being beheaded for their witness of Christ refusing to denounce Him, Rev 13; Rev 20:4

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe the Scriptures do specify a single Antichrist. In Dan 7 we read of the "little horn," who appears to be a king ruling among 7 other kings or an assembly of 10 kingdoms.

Daniel 7-8 the little horn/4th beast

The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire: (Iraq), Medo - Persian Empire: (Iran), Grecian Empire: (Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt), Roman Empire. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25.

These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.

Seven remaining nations that still exist today:

Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon.

Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.

Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.

Roman Empire: (little horn, Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27)
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.

Rev 12:3 the other sign John saw was a great red dragon meaning Satan. Remember, this is a vision and a sign as Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven until the beginning of the 3 1/2 year tribulation. The description of the dragon being great and red depicts its nature and character as being fierce and murderous, John 8:44. This red dragon is depicted as having seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. This is also confirmed in Rev 17 as mystery Babylon is described. The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The last kingdom which stands greater than all the others is that of a revived Roman Empire that takes control over all the ten nations who then implements a deceiving peace treaty with the Muslims in which the Dome of the Rock will be given over to the son of perdition as he reigns from the very Temple mount of God. This is the abomination Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15, 16 that we are to flee from when we see the son of perdition take his seat in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years.

Rev 13 the beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian system comprised of economic, political, militant, environmental and a false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini.

The modern day Ten Kingdoms of the NWO are listed below:

Kingdom 1: Canada, Mexico and the United States of America
Kingdom 2: European Union – Western Europe
Kingdom 3: Japan
Kingdom 4: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Israel and Pacific Islands
Kingdom 5: Eastern Europe
Kingdom 6: Latin America, Central and South America
Kingdom 7: North Africa and the Middle East
Kingdom 8: Central Africa
Kingdom 9: South and Southeast Asia
Kingdom 10: Central Asia