Apostasy

[Davies]

I was reading Phil Johnson's blog and found his observations on apostasy interesting. I think it's normal to question one's faith, or examine one's faith. It does seem to take years to become grounded in the faith, but what is perplexing to me, is that some people who are heavily involved in the church for a number of years will fall away. I chose, out of the ten observations made by Phil, to post two of the more striking reasons of why people fall away from the faith. Because of the nature of being online, and the misconceptions of justification by faith, these two, I think, account for so much heartache and pain when one falls away from the faith, or never really trusted in Christ though they were sincere in the faith they professed.

- Davies

"The actual pattern seems to be that the person will disappear from circles of Christian fellowship for an extended time. If they actually do express their doubts to anyone, it's usually under a false identity on the Internet. Under the cloak of anonymity, they will begin to gravitate toward skeptical forums. And if they do voice their doubts in "Christian" forums, rather than going where they might get help from mature believers, they tend to favor mixed forums featuring totally unmoderated discussion dominated by lay people, novices, and cranks. Moreover, if they voice their doubts in such a context, it will usually be in an argumentative way, and not as someone genuinely seeking answers."

"A disproportionate number of apostates seem to come from the kind of über-rigid fundamentalist backgrounds where what you do seems to be given ultimacy over what you believe. That kind of stress on externals naturally cultivates Pharisaism rather than authentic faith, so we shouldn't be surprised at the high percentage of apostates such a system produces." Phil Johnson

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/

The post is under the date of April 9th, labeled Apostasy.

 

[Aardverk]

....... what is perplexing to me, is that some people who are heavily involved in the church for a number of years will fall away. ...... heartache and pain when one falls away from the faith, or never really trusted in Christ though they were sincere in the faith they professed.

"1. The actual pattern seems to be that the person will disappear from circles of Christian fellowship for an extended time. If they actually do express their doubts to anyone, it's usually under a false identity on the Internet. Under the cloak of anonymity, they will begin to gravitate toward skeptical forums........ Moreover, if they voice their doubts in such a context, it will usually be in an argumentative way, and not as someone genuinely seeking answers."

"2. A disproportionate number of apostates seem to come from the kind of über-rigid fundamentalist backgrounds where what you do seems to be given ultimacy over what you believe. That kind of stress on externals naturally cultivates Pharisaism rather than authentic faith, so we shouldn't be surprised at the high percentage of apostates such a system produces." Phil Johnson.

Hello Davies. At last, a thread where I can claim some expertise!

Number 1 is an internet age explanation of what has been going on - forever! I left the Catholic church over 60 years ago, and subsequently other churches, largely because people would NOT talk to me about my doubts. Many people were keen to tell me how wicked I was, or how foolish, but only one person that I recall, Penelope Betjeman, was willing and able to talk to me intelligently about my doubts. Her non-judgmental kindness made such an impact on me that I recall details of our conversations even though that was 1963-4. (I get the impression Davies that you are one of the few who is actually capable of non-judgmental, intelligent care of a wavering apostate.)

The reason I have emphasized this kind, intelligent, listening ear is that it is a very rare thing in the various Christian communities of my experience. Many Christians, probably the majority, are scared stiff of getting involved in the real world with someone with doubts. Perhaps they are scared of getting tarred with the same brush. Instead of really listening and empathizing, people generally try to tell you what to think, what to do or what to read. That is NOT helpful. If you ask questions that they can not answer, many feel that you are trying to trick them or destroy their faith! Eventually, you give up and leave.

In the virtual world of internet forums, anyone asking probing questions is immediately considered to be a troll and they are prevented by moderators from having any useful discussions! I have seen posts deleted on this forum just because the moderator is scared of the question. That is a very bad state of affairs, it leaves the inquirer with nowhere to go but an open forum where they will have their doubts reinforced rather than politely and intelligently questioned.

There is a very good case for having a less rigidly moderated section on this forum for people who need to ask the questions that some of the moderators are scared of. You are simply not allowed to express your doubts openly here because that can be interpreted as attacking Christianity!

I am an old man and am not likely to drop back into mainstream Christian life again but I have been on the fringes for about 70 years and kid myself that I know a thing or two about Christianity. Despite that I have seen posts here that have really made me think. I am finding it an excellent education. The sad thing is that the 'scared of the trolls' attitude is effectively forcing wavering apostates away from help, away from Christianity and away from God. If you really want to help them - cure that problem.

Number 2 is the simple one, to my mind. If you are in a religious culture which allows no dissent from a rigid practice and belief, it is inevitable that people will both choose to leave AND be effectively pushed out by isolation from their community for infringement of rules that they will regard as petty.

 

[jasoncran]

well i guess i shouldnt post the doubts i have from time to time.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

Hello Davies. At last, a thread where I can claim some expertise!

Number 1 is an internet age explanation of what has been going on - forever! I left the Catholic church over 60 years ago, and subsequently other churches, largely because people would NOT talk to me about my doubts. Many people were keen to tell me how wicked I was, or how foolish, but only one person that I recall, Penelope Betjeman, was willing and able to talk to me intelligently about my doubts. Her non-judgmental kindness made such an impact on me that I recall details of our conversations even though that was 1963-4. (I get the impression Davies that you are one of the few who is actually capable of non-judgmental, intelligent care of a wavering apostate.)

The reason I have emphasized this kind, intelligent, listening ear is that it is a very rare thing in the various Christian communities of my experience. Many Christians, probably the majority, are scared stiff of getting involved in the real world with someone with doubts. Perhaps they are scared of getting tarred with the same brush. Instead of really listening and empathizing, people generally try to tell you what to think, what to do or what to read. That is NOT helpful. If you ask questions that they can not answer, many feel that you are trying to trick them or destroy their faith! Eventually, you give up and leave.

In the virtual world of internet forums, anyone asking probing questions is immediately considered to be a troll and they are prevented by moderators from having any useful discussions! I have seen posts deleted on this forum just because the moderator is scared of the question. That is a very bad state of affairs, it leaves the inquirer with nowhere to go but an open forum where they will have their doubts reinforced rather than politely and intelligently questioned.

There is a very good case for having a less rigidly moderated section on this forum for people who need to ask the questions that some of the moderators are scared of. You are simply not allowed to express your doubts openly here because that can be interpreted as attacking Christianity!

I am an old man and am not likely to drop back into mainstream Christian life again but I have been on the fringes for about 70 years and kid myself that I know a thing or two about Christianity. Despite that I have seen posts here that have really made me think. I am finding it an excellent education. The sad thing is that the 'scared of the trolls' attitude is effectively forcing wavering apostates away from help, away from Christianity and away from God. If you really want to help them - cure that problem.

Number 2 is the simple one, to my mind. If you are in a religious culture which allows no dissent from a rigid practice and belief, it is inevitable that people will both choose to leave AND be effectively pushed out by isolation from their community for infringement of rules that they will regard as petty.

One of the most intelligent posts I have ever read, ever. Thank you sir.

 

[Davies]

I really want to say more, now, on this thread, but I have to leave early for work. Thank you, Aardverk, for your compliment. I am often interpreted as a judgmental person and this form of communication doesn't make it any easier. I'll respond later tonight.

- Davies

 

[Former Christian]

Davies

It seems to me that a definition of apostasy according to your view is in order.

FC

 

[Mike]

It's a sad thing that there are likely honest people who haven fallen from faith that join the board and been mistaken as trolls. As a moderator, I can say this is something we struggle with all the time. Unfortunately, too many times, the seemingly genuine person has turned out to have an agenda to cause disruption. You wouldn't believe how many obvious trolls we've turned away. Often, a person joins with the pretense that they "just want to learn", when it becomes clear that this was never their motive. Believe me, we don't take this lightly.

I've always said the church, and communities like CFnet, should be a safe haven where struggling Christians can express doubts about certain things without fear of being shamed. If they can't be honest, they have to keep these doubts festering inside, and I can see them becoming more significant to their faith.

I also believe when Christians separate themselves from their community of believers as we're told not to do, their faith can be persuaded. This isn't to say the Lord will not keep them, but we are blessed to be a blessing. When they turn to others for support, they will find affirmation in a life not centered in Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

hmm the problem with the church is that we seem to have this i have to agree with all that pastor says and does because he is the pastor and if i dont i must go elsewhere.

now then, on my issues that no christian can really answer. how does on function as a soldier then also be christlike after all that you have seen. to kill a human and rightly if need be then also learn to well be that dark then remember that must stop when you return home? how does one deal with the anger and mistrust over certain skin color a religion when not all of them have done you wrong?at what you point do you switch from protection mode to gentle as a lamb and back again?

 

[Mike S]

hmm the problem with the church is that we seem to have this i have to agree with all that pastor says and does because he is the pastor and if i dont i must go elsewhere.

now then, on my issues that no christian can really answer. how does on function as a soldier then also be christlike after all that you have seen. to kill a human and rightly if need be then also learn to well be that dark then remember that must stop when you return home? how does one deal with the anger and mistrust over certain skin color a religion when not all of them have done you wrong?at what you point do you switch from protection mode to gentle as a lamb and back again?

That's true for some churches, but not mine. I wouldn't be part of a church where we couldn't discuss all our questions. How can we possibly be strong and confident enough in our faith to answer the questions of others if we can't even answer them to ourselves?

I think anyone who thinks we shouldn't express doubts is afraid of what he might find.

 

[jasoncran]

That's true for some churches, but not mine. I wouldn't be part of a church where we couldn't discuss all our questions. How can we possibly be strong and confident enough in our faith to answer the questions of others if we can't even answer them to ourselves?

I think anyone who thinks we shouldn't express doubts is afraid of what he might find.

oh the looks i get when i say i dont believe in the same things on end times. fortunately my church tolerates my position and one elder has love our discussion on that and doesnt consider me outside the faith.

that said. one must be able to tell soldiers that are where i am at. while im not walking away over that. i know of only one vet and elder who would understand if i stated this. i think i shall approach him on that.he is a double purple heart recipent and lone survivor of his unit in nam.

 

[Mike S]

oh the looks i get when i say i dont believe in the same things on end times. fortunately my church tolerates my position and one elder has love our discussion on that and doesnt consider me outside the faith.

that said. one must be able to tell soldiers that are where i am at. while im not walking away over that. i know of only one vet and elder who would understand if i stated this. i think i shall approach him on that.he is a double purple heart recipent and lone survivor of his unit in nam.

He may be very honest with you and share that he struggles with the killing thing himself. I'm a vet too, and still don't know where to draw the line between murder and justifiable killing. God isn't done shaping me yet.

 

[jasoncran]

of what war? and well what is your thought of them that carry them photos of kills like the hunters do with deer etc? i have seen that and im some christian vet does that.i made me sick to my stomach listening to coworkers rant and love the fact that UBL was dead.im glad that justice was served but they didnt get it when i said i dont find it all that exiciting. i left it at that.

what they dont know is that for me looking at a dead kid and dead enemy is the same both are dead and well with a tiny switch i can not even care. i hate that and its hard to stop that when they need compassion or assistance or are talking about some crime.

 

[Mike S]

of what war? and well what is your thought of them that carry them photos of kills like the hunters do with deer etc? i have seen that and im some christian vet does that.i made me sick to my stomach listening to coworkers rant and love the fact that UBL was dead.im glad that justice was served but they didnt get it when i said i dont find it all that exiciting. i left it at that.

what they dont know is that for me looking at a dead kid and dead enemy is the same both are dead and well with a tiny switch i can not even care. i hate that and its hard to stop that when they need compassion or assistance or are talking about some crime.

Vietnam. I served in the navy, six years.

I've never understood men, who've been in combat, being proud of the killing. My father's generation served during WWII, and the men who saw the most combat - did the most killing - were the men who refused to talk about those years. It's clear to me that every man who's ever served in the military has had to deal with this, and I've never heard a good answer to it.

My father-in-law, a Quaker, was a conscientious objector during WWII, a VERY unpopular decision in those days. I respected him greatly.

 

[jasoncran]

pacifism while i understand it, i dont like it when those say we are murderers. i havent killed a man at all but i have been around the death and so much and it changed me. there are those situation where we do have to take a life of civilians and theres simply no easy way around it.

ie you are in a convoy and must keep that convoy safe and a boy walks out. stop and die or kill em and you live. its not some easy choice or when you are in a cp and a civilain approaches and you must motion to stop and they dont and you shoot.

 

[Davies]

Number 1 is an internet age explanation of what has been going on - forever! I left the Catholic church over 60 years ago, and subsequently other churches, largely because people would NOT talk to me about my doubts. Many people were keen to tell me how wicked I was, or how foolish, but only one person that I recall, Penelope Betjeman, was willing and able to talk to me intelligently about my doubts. Her non-judgmental kindness made such an impact on me that I recall details of our conversations even though that was 1963-4.

Aardverk,

I was thinking what you said about listening to a persons doubts. I first thought was to keep from becoming judgmental or emotionally challenged, one needs to remember where one came from. I look back on the years of when I first considered Jesus, and I flat out rejected Him. Not because I didn't know He was true, but because I wanted to do what I wanted to do, and no one was going to tell me how to live my life. Before I came to this attitude, I learned after trying to live like a Christian, I didn't have the ability, so why bother.

What has helped me is to remember my shame, how I treated the Lord of glory. I often live on the border of the Valley of Humiliation. It doesn't take much to remind me of my weaknesses. This enables a person to pay attention a little closer to the ones he's talking to. Even though I have a very sinful past, I still struggle with being sensitive while at the same time not compromising the Gospel.

I think their is a challenge when listening to a person's doubts that not only comes from the listener, but also the person who has the doubts. Often, when you try to explain theology with someone who is not informed or just doesn't understand, they can misperceive what is being shared. What someone is saying out of a genuine concern can be interpreted as judgmental or intolerant. Take the Gospel for example. Is there anything else in the world that could be more offensive to the natural man then the cross of Christ? If it takes God Himself to be sacrificed in payment for our sin, what does that say about us? When you communicate or help a person to feel this sense of indignity, watch out. What I mean about helping a person to feel indignity is preaching the law of God to a person in the form of questions, have you ever lied, stolen... You'll often see the self-justification and self-righteousness leap out and say, 'Here I am!' You have to have your gospel shoes on or the weeds of legalism will choke a weak believer to death. Preaching what someone should do is nothing more than moralism. The Taliban does a great job of this. Believe in Mohammed or die.

I haven't had a run in yet with the moderators where I disagreed with them. They've dealt with me fairly, and my blood pressure has been high on more than one occasion. If I did see something, I would hope a private message would explain things, and even then if I still disagreed, you have to submit to their authority, almost but not quite like church.

If anything I take from this thread, it's to be careful with one's words and try to be understanding towards others knowing my own sinful tendencies could make matters worse.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

Davies

It seems to me that a definition of apostasy according to your view is in order.

FC

Good Morning FC,

Here is a couple of verses that I think describe apostasy.

1 Timothy 4:1
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

If a person puts their faith in something other than what the Bible declares, then he's considered apostate. The inference is the person has been presented with the truth, but then rejects it. Most issues in the Bible are secondary, but the essentials of the faith, I don't think they can be compromised: Father, Son, Holy Spirit (One God); Salvation through faith alone; the inerrancy of Scripture, the Gospel.

Maybe someone could add to the list, but I think most apostates go wrong with these particular core doctrines.

Hebrews 3:12-14
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,†lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Notice in 14 that it says we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Your faith will determine if you hold steadfast to the end, not to be confused with making an effort or doing good deeds to keep you in the grace of God. Time will tell if your faith is genuine because that person will remain true to what the Bible has presented. Apostate 'Christians' will not remain faithful. I don't think that means a person can't repent of their apostasy. Jesus is very forgiving. The apostate will have to depend on the grace of God if he's going to be reconciled, just like the rest of us.

If anyone has more to add to my description or thinks I need to clean it up, please help me.

Time for some

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

I was thinking what you said about listening to a persons doubts. I first thought was to keep from becoming judgmental ..........

I think their is a challenge when listening to a person's doubts that not only comes from the listener, but also the person who has the doubts. Often, when you try to explain theology with someone who is not informed or just doesn't understand, they can misperceive what is being shared. What someone is saying out of a genuine concern can be interpreted as judgmental or intolerant.......

Hi Davies.
First, an explanation. What I have perceived in your many posts is an intelligent man, with a somewhat difficult past, who has overcome his problems and arrived in a place of relaxed confidence and delight in his beliefs enabling him to maintain an open mind whilst never losing sight of his beliefs. Believe me Davies, I envy you that position. It is a place I have wanted to get to all my life but I have never managed it. I had it as a young man, I was even a bit 'preachy' but it has deserted me.

The problem with apostates is that they tend to switch very quickly from, 'I believe', to, 'I am an atheist' - with very little or nothing in between. Phil Johnson, in common with most clerics/clergy/elders, accepts no responsibility for that switch. I, as an apostate and having spoken to dozens, maybe hundreds of people in the same situation have a great deal of bad things, blame even, to say about churches and Christian communities.

Around the world Christian numbers are falling and 'leaders' need to understand why. Even in the US, the biggest Christian population in the world, numbers are dropping. Although around 65% self identify as Christian and 40% say they regularly attend church, door step surveys show that only around 20% actually attend church! Add to that my personal disbelief that as many as 65% are actually Christian. A great many people are in fact nervous of expressing their real position for fear of ostracism from their neighbors.

Whilst I certainly accept that a part of this is based on my assumption, everyone I have spoken to privately agrees that something along these lines IS going on. It is of course pretty much as one would expect. If we look at other well educated countries such as England and France, we see a far lower Christian percentage and churches closing down or only holding services every few weeks.

That should concern all Christians and in certainly concerns me. It concerns me because the chance of teaching someone, of helping someone to try to interact with God, of sharing that vast history of knowledge and experience, is being lost. From my long experience of rejection by Christians, I KNOW that it is largely the 'holier than thou', 'do as you are told', attitude that is driving people away. Their alternative to 'the church' is free-thinkers with arms open wide saying, 'here, come debate with us, what do you think?' Not deliberate flattery, but flattery of the ego nonetheless. They are instantly transformed from someone who is being told they are wrong into someone who can think for themselves and share in the thoughts of others. It is the hippie revolution all over again but it has not been named and it has not been recognized.

There is a small opportunity on this forum to genuinely help people with doubts but they are instead being labelled and rejected. Very sad. All it would take is a separate section where people were allowed to express themselves openly - in their own foul language even. I personally dislike swearing but come on now, aren't we adult enough to put up with a few silly words? All I would advocate is a firm ban on direct and personal insults plus obvious and intentional blasphemy, backed up by 'three strikes and you're out'.

 

[Aardverk]

If a person puts their faith in something other than what the Bible declares, then he's considered apostate.

It is your thread Davies but can I ask that we allow a far wider definition of apostasy. Many lovely people that I know, and consider to be good Christians, do not accept that the Old Testament is ALL the literal truth. We may also want to discuss apostasy from other religions.

A dictionary definition may suffice:

Apostasy ( /əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), 'a defection or revolt', from ἀπό, apo, 'away, apart', στάσις, stasis, 'stand, 'standing') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person.​

 

[Mike S]

Around the world Christian numbers are falling and 'leaders' need to understand why. Even in the US, the biggest Christian population in the world, numbers are dropping.

I think you're wrong. Christianity, while not the fastest growing religion, continues to grow worldwide. Growth is particularly strong in Latin America, Asia, and Sub-Saharan Africa. Those are areas where Christianity is of a much more conservative, traditional, evangelical nature than in Europe, or even in America.

 

[Aardverk]

I think you're wrong. Christianity, while not the fastest growing religion, continues to grow worldwide. Growth is particularly strong in Latin America, Asia, and Sub-Saharan Africa. Those are areas where Christianity is of a much more conservative, traditional, evangelical nature than in Europe, or even in America.

I confess, I did not consider third world countries. I stay out of such places these days and only visit where I am assured of comfort, hygiene, good medical care and public toilets that I am prepared to use:nod.