Apostasy

[Comprehender]

One can find where the hate should be directed at. And to hate sin is to be the ISSUE, [NEVER THE PERSON!]
And the posts back & forth seem 'much' more to me than that of hating sin or Apostasy. But just perhaps as VAIN?? It seems that taking sides is the ISSUE, and are trying to be won for popularity vote?

And for the posters that are reading this material (not personalities) to understand APOSTASY, ask yourself who were seen such in these verses of...

Numbers 16
[1] Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
[2] And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
[3] And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?

Seems to be quite a majority vote there! Yet, one might wonder how none of these in this large famous group came to the point of not undersing what True Agape Love is??

Even after God executed these ones, the people who were left have a message for us today??? ibid 41...
[41] But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.

And you can read on for further justice from God.

--Elijah

What stands out to me is that "God executed these ones."
What about "Thou shalt not kill"?

I agree with what they said (1st part bolded).
God agrees too, as did Jesus...
"God is no respector of persons."
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17:20

When people start calling names, or even labeling themselves "Mormon" or "Baptist" or "Muslim" - they are separating themselves, as if God sees anyone differently, when we know that is not the case. "All things are spiritual unto God." You turn up a rock, and there is God... if God is even under a rock, God is surely in every person, no matter what labels are placed on them.

The extreme of labeling leads to killing & war.
I believe Jesus tried to teach us to let go of such labeling in the parable of the good Samaritan.
Jews & Samaritans had prejudice toward each other, yet he used each to display how love could overcome all!

 

[Comprehender]

I suppose in responding, "Yes" to "Are you a Christian" I am labeling myself.
I believe in Jesus' teachings though & I think that many others do too, they may just find other means (like Buddhism etc.) to find those same Godly teachings.

We cannot help but pursue God (love) through trial & error (active faith). We are attracted to live & progress!
God is that which we worship, what matters most to us, whether we call it God or not.
From the planets of the universe, to the microbs in our bodies - all are attracted to fulfilling it's potential.

Christian, to me is a way of seeing things... "putting on the mind of Christ."
I believe we all have the light of Christ (God) in us.
But we each use different words to describe it.
"What's in a name? A rose, by any other name would smell as sweet." -Shakespear

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Comprehender,

What do we do with these?

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? (2 Corinthians 6:14-16 NIV)


And how about this instruction for those within the assembly of believers?

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. (Matthew 18:15-17 NIV)


14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer. (2 Thess. 3:14-15 NIV)


It's clear that there really is to be a clear division between believers and unbelievers, not love and roses as if we're not different and completely compatible with each other. And even within the church those who do wrong and stubbornly refuse correction are to be treated as if they are unbelievers (held at a distance, not hated as some might interpret that to mean).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I suppose in responding, "Yes" to "Are you a Christian" I am labeling myself.
I believe in Jesus' teachings though & I think that many others do too, they may just find other means (like Buddhism etc.) to find those same Godly teachings.

But being a Christian means having accepted Christ's sacrifice as the acceptable atonement for one's sins. Christianity is not like the religions of the world where you gain God's approval and acceptance through adherence to good and moral teachings. That is why it is absolutely imperative that the person who calls themselves a Christian, having a genuine hope for redemption on the Day of Judgment, must have acknowledged sin guilt and accepted God's forgiveness for that sin in order to really be the Christian they think they are.

We cannot help but pursue God (love) through trial & error (active faith). We are attracted to live & progress!
God is that which we worship, what matters most to us, whether we call it God or not.
From the planets of the universe, to the microbs in our bodies - all are attracted to fulfilling it's potential.

The problem with this is it ignores the issue of sin that has separated mankind from the God of the universe and relies on the abilities and motivations and righteousness of man to approach God with a sacrifice of satisfactory compliance with morality. It's just the age old religion of self-effort. Christianity is a 'religion' of righteousness through the forgiveness of sins, not the effort of striving toward God in good works to gain approval. But if one can't acknowledge that they have any sin that needs forgiveness, or sin that God should be holding against them in the first place, they are locked out from the grace of the forgiveness of sins that saves a person.

Christian, to me is a way of seeing things... "putting on the mind of Christ."
I believe we all have the light of Christ (God) in us.
But we each use different words to describe it.
"What's in a name? A rose, by any other name would smell as sweet." -Shakespear

Sounds good, but we see plainly in Romans 8 that not everyone has the Holy Spirit of God within them, and that only those who do have the Spirit, through the acknowledgement and forgiveness of sins (aka being born again) can then live for God with a moral life. This is what Christianity is all about.

The sin issue is the great divide between true religion and false.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In the bible, an apostate would describe one who has left following God, left following Jesus Christ. Today, it just means someone who disagrees with the doctrines of a particular denomination.

It may certainly be misused that way. But among us true Christians it is understood to mean someone who has departed faith in Jesus Christ altogether. It does not mean the honest doubter still clinging to the forgiveness of sins they have received through Christ. It does not mean the saint struggling with temptations. It means the person who has rejected faith in the forgiveness of Christ altogether, usually signified by their return to their old life, and of course their own confession of having rejected the gospel of Christ's forgiveness.

To Evangelical Protestants, Roman Catholicism and Jehovah’s Witnesses are apostates. To Roman Catholics, all other denominations are the apostates, and need to come back to truly following Christ through the true Church. The Jehovah’s Witnesses see “Christendom” in a similar light.

Now measure each one of these by what I just said. Only Jehovah's Witnesses are wholly suspect as to whether or not they truly teach salvation through the forgiveness of sins, apart from works, by the blood of Christ (I'm not ready just yet to put Catholicism into the 'wholly' category).

And even then, you will probably find young misguided souls among them who just haven't learned enough yet to know J.W.'s probably don't line up real well with the gospel I just described. If they really belong to God, He will lead them out from them and into a proper fellowship...unless they choose to become apostate.

According to the definition using 1 Timothy 4:1, all deemed apostate are also deemed Satanic. Which would make all of Christianity Satanic, depending who you talked to.

Or maybe it depends on which Christians are actually adhering to those 'doctrines of demons'? I am a Christian not ashamed of that name (as Peter exhorts us to be) and I do not believe, or adhere to those doctrines of demons. You can't broad stroke all Christians into that category. It's impossible to decide one can not be called a Christian anymore because of doctrines of demons when there are still real Christians in the world who do not follow doctrines of demons.

You have to get out of the church of the world (the major denominations in Christianity, generally speaking of course) to know there is still true Christianity, and that there are still true Christians in the world today. Don't throw it to the dogs just yet.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are all "apostate" in a sense & all fall short of the mark & need to be "forgiven because we know not what we do."

No, I am not apostate. I still believe and trust firmly in the forgiveness of God given to me through Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine
Jesus did not teach a message of tolerance and love and peace .......... let alone a "clear" message of that. Show me in the Bible where Jesus did this, okay?"

"I give you a new commandment: love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another." John. 13.34 This is a clear instruction to follow His example. You choose to ignore it.

I've been very tolerant of your sassy insults, and the cutting up of my quotes to unfairly present them. I'm debating whether to report this blatant misuse of my quote (again) to the mods.

 

[Elijah674]

What stands out to me is that "God executed these ones."
What about "Thou shalt not kill"?

I agree with what they said (1st part bolded).
God agrees too, as did Jesus...
"God is no respector of persons."
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17:20

When people start calling names, or even labeling themselves "Mormon" or "Baptist" or "Muslim" - they are separating themselves, as if God sees anyone differently, when we know that is not the case. "All things are spiritual unto God." You turn up a rock, and there is God... if God is even under a rock, God is surely in every person, no matter what labels are placed on them.

The extreme of labeling leads to killing & war.
I believe Jesus tried to teach us to let go of such labeling in the parable of the good Samaritan.
Jews & Samaritans had prejudice toward each other, yet he used each to display how love could overcome all!

Your post logic is saying that God cannot read one heart & end result?? That of Matt. 12:31-32.
No, I do not buy into that. Psalms 19:13 comes into my mind. To me there is a vast difference between 'murder' & the Lords JUSTICE in execution of the ones that He knows who are un/savable. The Obadiah 1:16 ones were as the Gen. 6:3 ones as I see it. They had the preaching of Noah + the 120 year STRIVINGS of the Holy Spirit to repent & enter into the Ark.

And the Rev. 17:1-5 ones have been around many more moons than that of 120 years, with the same old false doctrinal stuff! Which reminds me of your posting, that seems to suggest that God IS A MURDER'ER! And again there is a vast difference between JUSTICE & EXECUTION & killing unjustly! And that is what satan & sin is all about in bottom/line. + of course the His Kingdom is within you. James 2:10.

--Elijah

PS: You can have the last word! This is starting to sound to me like Eccl. 3:15's repeats around here?? Titus 3:9-11. If 1 Cor. 12:10 'discerning of spirits' has any bearings for me? And yes, I do know what will follow Matt. 24:21 on... so just follow on if that be the case?

--Elijah

 

[Aardverk]

It [the word 'apostate'] may certainly be misused that way. But among us true Christians it is understood to mean someone who has departed faith in Jesus Christ altogether.

(My underlining)

If we check most dictionaries, we find it defined in the way that Comprehender describes.

Please remember Jethro that you are (presumably) in one of the 200 major Christian denominations or one of the thousands of smaller cults. Whichever denomination you are in, you are automatically in the minority of Christians.

Each and every Christian regards him/herself as a 'true Christian' and they often hold very different views to you or they would be in the same denomination as you. I would suggest that the majority of Christians do not take the Bible literally, especially the OT. They take it much the same way that I do, picking and choosing what feels right and what feels wrong. Maybe our instincts are God-given to help us choose which bits to disregard or maybe we are fooling ourselves. Who knows?

What we do know is that most of us do not want to believe in a vindictive god accepting human sacrifices and killing millions of people for the sins of a few. Nor do we want to believe that our God makes us fill in all the forms and tick all the boxes before we can be considered 'good' - I just do not believe it works that way. The God in my vision can see into my heart and knows if I am 'good' and that is all that counts. I believe that He considers my sins and what, if anything, I do to atone for them. I want to believe in a loving God whose example we can try to follow and, in that, I think I speak for the majority of the world, Christian or not.

I only point this out to encourage you step back from the position of a 'Pharisee' with all that entails. Personally, I know nothing, I can only guess - but we are all in that same position. You included.

By all means share your view and interpretation of the Bible but take care when you tell people they are wrong, that you are right and that they are evil sinners. If they are doubters rather than true apostates, who have already left their particular group, you definitely risk driving them away. That really is not a good thing to do but I forgive you for calling me evil Jethro, you are probably right

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you would read and understand the Bible in the plain language that it is written you would know that a 'Christian' is one who has received God's forgiveness of sins through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I have done that. That makes me, and everyone else who has done that a 'true' Christian according to the Bible. You are certainly entitled to not do that, and to also not believe that is how one makes peace with God.

I don't know to what extent you really did believe in Christianity in regard to having one's sins forgiven apart from the merit of works, but for a person to have once embraced it and then to have rejected it is to have become an apostate. You are certainly entitled to do that.

For the sake of my brothers and sisters (remember, this is a Christian forum) I have shared what I believe to be the fundamental reason people do that (that is, stop believing in the gospel, assuming they once did believe it). It is the sin issue. Somewhere along the line they begin to question what they have been taught about sin, and God's character and his justice in holding it against man and carrying out his judgments. And you have been proving my belief quite well:

What we do know is that most of us do not want to believe in a vindictive god accepting human sacrifices and killing millions of people for the sins of a few. Nor do we want to believe that our God makes us fill in all the forms and tick all the boxes before we can be considered 'good' - I just do not believe it works that way.

So, I will continue to stand by what I believe. And I am entitled to do that. You have to be as tolerant of what I believe as much as you insist that I tolerate your differing opinion. But for some reason I'm not being given the same courtesy of tolerance that you are demanding from me and which I am in fact giving to you. You are free to remain an apostate...and for each and every reason you have decided to do that. Now, let me believe, for each and every reason I do, why people choose to become apostate. And let me enjoy my freedom to share it in this Christian forum without me having to endure your personal attacks and threats of judgment and your unfair treatment of my posts.

I don't want the mods to think it necessary to lock this thread, so I will have nothing more to say to you either directly or indirectly.

 

[Fedusenko]

But being a Christian means having accepted Christ's sacrifice as the acceptable atonement for one's sins. Christianity is not like the religions of the world where you gain God's approval and acceptance through adherence to good and moral teachings. That is why it is absolutely imperative that the person who calls themselves a Christian, having a genuine hope for redemption on the Day of Judgment, must have acknowledged sin guilt and accepted God's forgiveness for that sin in order to really be the Christian they think they are.

Not all Christian think this way. There are some who believe that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Unrighteous is defined by ones actions in 1 Cor 6:9-10. What does that mean? Claim to be a Christian and accept Jesus as your savior, but if you remain unrighteous then you will not cross those pearly gates.

This doesn't mean that you don't need the Messiah, God forbid, but that your actions matter.

Some believe that at least. Just throwing a monkey wrench in your blanket statement.

 

[Elijah674]

Not all Christian think this way. There are some who believe that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Unrighteous is defined by ones actions in 1 Cor 6:9-10. What does that mean? Claim to be a Christian and accept Jesus as your savior, but if you remain unrighteous then you will not cross those pearly gates.

This doesn't mean that you don't need the Messiah, God forbid, but that your actions matter.

Some believe that at least. Just throwing a monkey wrench in your blanket statement.

Some Christian's? Surely Heb. 6:1-6 sorts the ones who were such from the ones who are such.

--Elijah

 

[Fedusenko]

You made me look up your passage... :bigfrown It is a good passage to look up!:yes

 

[Elijah674]

You made me look up your passage... :bigfrown It is a good passage to look up!:yes

It is the Lord who leads. Rom. 8:14
Another good passage for our understanding is in the K.J. from Inspiration penned by Peter in 2 Peter 2:19-22, verse 19 has some promising liberty.

--Elijah

 

[Fedusenko]

Yup, so many churches preach opposite of that. That is the biggest heresy and It is so hard to hear that salvation can not be taken away if you are saved when the bible states it so blatantly.

 

[CalledToServe]

Yup, so many churches preach opposite of that. That is the biggest heresy and It is so hard to hear that salvation can not be taken away if you are saved when the bible states it so blatantly.

You might want to rethink that statement since 2 Peter 2:20-22 says the opposite.

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,†and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.â€

Peter states that it is better to not be saved then to be saved then fall away from God, since it is far worse for them at judgment. In effect, their choices to not follow God to the end of their days will mean that they are worse off then the ones who never were saved. What happens to the unsaved? They go to hell upon final judgment and that's what the scripture says.

 

[Comprehender]

Just curious...
Is anybody aware of a Christian forum of people who have values, but go by the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law?

Or maybe I haven't explored this forum enough yet.

 

[Fedusenko]

You might want to rethink that statement since 2 Peter 2:20-22 says the opposite.

Either I wrote my idea poorly or you misread my post, but we agree with each other. It is error to believe one can not have salvation taken away. I have said this in the past and I am called a Pharisee.

 

[Fedusenko]

Just curious...
Is anybody aware of a Christian forum of people who have values, but go by the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law?

Or maybe I haven't explored this forum enough yet.

There are all sorts here.

 

[Former Christian]

Aardverk

As a matter of interest FC, as an ex-Christian yourself, would it have helped you stay a Christian longer if people told you that you were an evil sinner when you had doubts or would it have helped you stay with Christianity if people were loving, welcoming, helpful, tolerant and open minded about the many interpretations of Christianity?

I assume that’s a rhetorical question.

NC