Apostasy

[Aardverk]

Christianity as taught in the Bible starts with an acknowledgement of sin guilt.

I recognize that is your view, you have said it eight times so far. I understood it the first time.

11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.†(Luke 19:11-14 NIV)

I'm not clear of your meaning here Jethro. Which one do you think you are? The Pharisee or the Tax collector?

At the risk of repeating myself, it is not your place to judge and criticize people with doubts. It is your place to sympathize and help them back to God. If an apostate is clearly anti God, then forget him, there is nothing you can do. If they simply have doubts and differences of opinion - embrace him!

James 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor? NIV​

Note those words Jethro. Who are you to judge?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I told you what is keeping you in your doubts and you did not listen. If you do not acknowledge your sin guilt how can you believe and trust in God's forgiveness and be saved?


I only talk to unbelievers if I see in them a sincere, humble desire to know God and be at peace with him. Their response to the sin issue is how one discerns if they are truly sincere and humble, or not.

They bring up doubts in other areas because they do not accept the Bible's definition of sin and the justice and fairness of God in judging it. That is the fundamental truth I learned through experience and which I wanted to share in this thread for the benefit of my brothers and sisters who talk to unbelievers about the gospel.

 

[Elijah674]

I recognize that is your view, you have said it eight times so far. I understood it the first time.

[/COLOR] I'm not clear of your meaning here Jethro. Which one do you think you are? The Pharisee or the Tax collector?

At the risk of repeating myself, it is not your place to judge and criticize people with doubts. It is your place to sympathize and help them back to God. If an apostate is clearly anti God, then forget him, there is nothing you can do. If they simply have doubts and differences of opinion - embrace him!

James 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor? NIV
​

Note those words Jethro. Who are you to judge?

Are you two brothers? And surely a non/Christian even would know that there is a vast difference between another false teaching of anti/Christ material, & trying to read another brother's mind?

And JUDGING open false doctrine + unrepent open sin even finds that, that it is the very thing that is required to be done. 1 Cor. 6:1-3 (yet, inside of the brotherhood)
[1] Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

And surely we find you two going way past once or twice? And the Word of Vain is used in Titus 3:9-11 as all inclusive!

[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Now, the subject of Apostasy is crucial, and if one could stick to just the Word of God, & leave off 2 Cor. 4:2 'cute vain stuff', then perhaps something might be learned instead of what we are seeing...:fight.
--Elijah

 

[Aardverk]

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

That is very pertinent Elijah. Jethro and I have indeed been wasting time quoting to each other rather than restricting ourselves to talking about the apostates and how we can help them back to God.

10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I fear that is part of the problem Elijah; whilst I have my own beliefs, very similar to every Christian's, I will be regarded by many as a heretic and my views and interpretations may well be automatically discarded. I am however still a spiritual man in exactly the same way that millions of people with completely different faiths are spiritual people - more of that later!

11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

:o obviously no one will expect me to agree that applies to me.

We can all keep throwing quotations at each other confident in the knowledge that there are enough contradictions in the Bible to last us another two thousand years. I will end with just one more, and then try to back out of this thread with the hope that people will continue to think about the poor, suffering apostate rather than the evil apostate.

Now, the subject of Apostasy is crucial, and if one could stick to just the Word of God, & leave off 2 Cor. 4:2 'cute vain stuff', then perhaps something might be learned instead of what we are seeing.--Elijah

That is true. I have tried hard to make people realize that apostates are not necessarily evil or sinners, they may well be good, loving, God fearing, spiritual, thinking people but obviously not everyone is even prepared to consider that. However, no man can judge them, we are not ready to eat that meat....

1 Corinthians 2:15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16. "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. 3.1. Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. 2. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is very pertinent Elijah. Jethro and I have indeed been wasting time quoting to each other rather than restricting ourselves to talking about the apostates and how we can help them back to God.

Changing what the Bible plainly says is NOT how you help an apostate back to God. That is utterly absurd. What you're not doing is understanding the person who is not an apostate (as you claim the church does not understand the apostate).

How is it even remotely reasonable that the answer for the apostate is for the non-apostate to change what the Bible plainly says about sin and the Judgment to come? You're in the wrong forum if you're looking for sympathy and understanding that requires Christians to change plain scripture so you can come back to God. You have our sympathies as is appropriate to any unbeliever (Jude 22), but that does not extend to lying to you about what the Bible plainly says about sin and judgment.

We can all keep throwing quotations at each other confident in the knowledge that there are enough contradictions in the Bible to last us another two thousand years.

What you resist about the Christian faith is not in dispute among us Christians. So-called contradictions don't take away what is so plainly taught and accepted in the scriptures. You're clinging to a worthless excuse for rejecting the Christian faith.

I have tried hard to make people realize that apostates are not necessarily evil or sinners, they may well be good, loving, God fearing, spiritual, thinking people but obviously not everyone is even prepared to consider that.

We know this quite well...that apostates can be generally good people a lot of the time in many situations. The problem is self righteousness is not good enough to reconcile a person back to God and is itself evil. Shall we change what is so plainly taught in the Bible and not in dispute among us believers so that you can 'come back to God' and feel good about yourself?

 

[Aardverk]

Changing what the Bible plainly says is NOT how you help an apostate back to God. That is utterly absurd. What you're not doing is understanding the person who is not an apostate (as you claim the church does not understand the apostate).

1. I am not trying to change what the Bible plainly says. I have quoted what it plainly says. "And you - who are you to judge". Answer
2. You do not seem to have any idea how to help an apostate and you are not prepared to listen to an expert
3. I think I understand you very well. Is that what you meant?
4. I have never claimed that 'the church' does not understand the apostate, only that you do not understand.

The thread is meant to be about the reasons for apostasy. If you do not understand them, you will never be able to help them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The thread is meant to be about the reasons for apostasy. If you do not understand them, you will never be able to help them.

You have the exact belief about sin guilt that I say unbelievers and apostates have, and yet you say I don't understand apostates. I suggest to you that I understand them better than even you, an apostate, does.

I don't know how denying what the Bible plainly says about sin and the justice of God can somehow bring an apostate or unbeliever to the very acknowledgement of sin guilt that the Bible says is necessary to be reconciled to God. But apparently you do (even though what you believe has not brought you back to God). Since you are claiming to be the expert, help us understand how the apostate thinks denying sin guilt paves the path back to God in the Christian faith.

 

[Aardverk]

You have the exact belief about sin guilt that I say unbelievers and apostates have,

Yes, I do

and yet you say I don't understand apostates.

Correct:yes

I suggest to you that I understand them better than even you, an apostate, does.

That is rather like saying you understand a criminal better than the criminal does - and yes, I do understand the implication you will try to read into that statement.

I don't know how denying what the Bible plainly says about sin and the justice of God....

I am not denying what you say it says Jethro, I am giving due weight to the loving and tolerant example given by Jesus.

... help us understand how the apostate thinks denying sin guilt paves the path back to God in the Christian faith.

OK Jethro, I will, so please concentrate on the answer and try hard to hold back your prejudice.

As this is a Christian forum, I will give a Christian example but similar principles apply to all religions. Islam still counters the problems by killing apostates, same as Christians used to do! Please do not persist with your mistake that this is exclusively a Christian issue, apostasy is a fact in all religions.

An apostate is (generally) someone who has read and thought about the Bible and about the history of religions and Christianity in particular of course. He may even have doubts about the very existence of God. Having thought about it, he becomes aware of what he perceives to be flaws in the teaching that he has been given. He has almost certainly sought guidance on this from his spiritual leaders and found their advice or explanations wanting. He has almost certainly found good reasons to question the validity of the scripture being presented, possibly for historical reasons and possibly for reasons of logic. I do not want to concentrate on any one thing but it will help if I give an example.

He may, purely as an example remember, have been brought up with the words of the Sermon on the Mount ringing in his ears and in the knowledge and belief that God loves us and that He wants peace and harmony among mankind. He then reads, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man's enemies will be the members of his own household." Do remember, that is just an example.

He looks around him at the awful fighting throughout history and throughout the world, often in the name of Christianity, he looks at the sometimes vicious family squabbles and breakdowns and tries very hard to reconcile those words with the greater message of love that he has always lived by. Perhaps he can not see how to reconcile them and starts to wonder which of the two conflicting messages is truly the word of God. His conclusion is likely to be - 'hang on, how do I know that either of these messages are truly the words of God? They seem more likely to be the disparate words of several MEN, not the consistent word of God', and then it all kicks off. He looks through the Bible again and again and notices more and more conflicting words which make it clear to him that it is not the clear infallible word of God, it is a mixture of several ancient religions with conflicting messages and even conflicting names for God. Faced with that realization, he then looks around for people of like mind.

OK? Still concentrating? That is just an example of the thinking of an apostate, it was not actually my thought process. You will understand that having gone through that thought process and having lost confidence in the wording of the Bible, it is absolutely pointless and counter productive to carry on hitting him around the head with the Bible telling him he is a sinner. Your message will not get through. What MAY get through to him, what MAY help him back to God is a clear demonstration of love and support and an acknowledgement that he is suffering. Also, an honest acknowledgement that the Bible can be read in many different ways and that we are ALL struggling to understand - even after 2000 years.

I hope that helps you a little. I hope even more that you will reflect on these words for a few days before telling me yet again what your views of sin/guilt are.

Love, peace and harmony Jethro.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

An apostate is (generally) someone who has read and thought about the Bible and about the history of religions and Christianity in particular of course. He may even have doubts about the very existence of God. Having thought about it, he becomes aware of what he perceives to be flaws in the teaching that he has been given.

We all know this. This is not new information. By definition, an apostate is rejecting what he knows about Christianity. As opposed to an unbeliever who may just be uneducated about Christianity.

He has almost certainly sought guidance on this from his spiritual leaders and found their advice or explanations wanting.

Of course he's dissatisfied with explanations. That is why he has chosen to become apostate. But dissatisfaction with the facts of the Christian faith does not automatically equate to them being wrong, or somehow misrepresenting what God is really like and the truth about sin. But an apostate is certainly entitled to decide that for himself.

He has almost certainly found good reasons to question the validity of the scripture being presented, possibly for historical reasons and possibly for reasons of logic. I do not want to concentrate on any one thing but it will help if I give an example.

He may, purely as an example remember, have been brought up with the words of the Sermon on the Mount ringing in his ears and in the knowledge and belief that God loves us and that He wants peace and harmony among mankind. He then reads, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man's enemies will be the members of his own household." Do remember, that is just an example.

This is not something we don't already understand. Many Christian are very familiar with the common arguments unbelievers and apostates level against the Bible and the Christian faith. This is not insight into the mind of an apostate that we have to be educated about. We know it already.

He looks around him at the awful fighting throughout history and throughout the world, often in the name of Christianity, he looks at the sometimes vicious family squabbles and breakdowns and tries very hard to reconcile those words with the greater message of love that he has always lived by. Perhaps he can not see how to reconcile them and starts to wonder which of the two conflicting messages is truly the word of God.

And this is EXACTLY what I've been telling you. Somewhere along the line the apostate began to question the fundamental truths of the Christian faith and the character of God (granted, as that it is understood among Christians). They begin to disagree with either the definition of sin, or the character of God and his justice and fairness to hold man accountable for it as the Christian faith teaches that. That is why they become apostate.

His conclusion is likely to be - 'hang on, how do I know that either of these messages are truly the words of God? They seem more likely to be the disparate words of several MEN, not the consistent word of God', and then it all kicks off. He looks through the Bible again and again and notices more and more conflicting words which make it clear to him that it is not the clear infallible word of God, it is a mixture of several ancient religions with conflicting messages and even conflicting names for God. Faced with that realization, he then looks around for people of like mind.

This is not news to us Christians. We deal with this over and over with people who resist the gospel. The mind of the apostate/ unbeliever is not as unknown as you insist it is. They reject what they have been taught (and maybe even 'believed') about sin, and God, and his justice. God's love is perhaps the biggest thing that apostates bring into question when they decide to not be a Christian anymore.

OK? Still concentrating? That is just an example of the thinking of an apostate, it was not actually my thought process. You will understand that having gone through that thought process and having lost confidence in the wording of the Bible, it is absolutely pointless and counter productive to carry on hitting him around the head with the Bible telling him he is a sinner. Your message will not get through.

I am kicking myself for deleting the paragraph of my last post where I addressed my fellow believers and said it is a waste of time and energy to continue to speak to anyone who can't get over the very first truth of the Christian faith that all men bear the burden of sin guilt before God.

In that now deleted paragraph I explained how I was posting here for their benefit...to help them gain some insight on how to deal with those who resist the gospel in regard to the definition of sin and the justice of God who judges it. Those are NOT the people you share the gospel with beyond a simple sentence or two of the truth about sin and the Judgment to come. How they react to it is how you know whether to continue the discussion. Don't press in on a person who can't acknowledge sin guilt.

What MAY get through to him, what MAY help him back to God is a clear demonstration of love and support and an acknowledgement that he is suffering. Also, an honest acknowledgement that the Bible can be read in many different ways and that we are ALL struggling to understand - even after 2000 years.

Uh, Aardverk, sin and the Judgment to come is not something we Christians have been struggling to understand for 2000 years. Only unbelievers and apostates struggle with that. How does lying to an apostate enable him to then believe the truth about what we Christians don't disagree on--that man is sinful and evil and there is a Day of Judgment coming? That makes no sense. Will you begin to believe man is sinful and God will judge us for it if I tell you you aren't sinful and that God really is unfair in holding man accountable for his wickedness?



Because you are, by your admission, an outsider to being a Christian who has believed God about the sinfulness of all man, and the justice of the Judgment to come, it's impossible for you to understand that the bedrock of the believer in Christ is his firm conviction that he is forgiven and has a hope for the life to come. What this means is, because we have accepted God's indictment against mankind about his sinfulness, and his need for forgiveness we do not surrender ourselves to what at first seem to be contradictions and man-made 'truths' in the Bible. That is why I said to you that you have to believe the truth about your sinfulness before you can (or are even able to) believe in Christ and be saved.

I know many of the arguments atheists, apostates, and unbelievers level against the Bible. And before the truth can be known about them they do present quite a struggle for the honest follower of God. But the bottom line is, the believer believes so strongly the voice of the Holy Spirit that brought them to acknowledgement of sin, and the truth and justice of the judgment to come, and the forgiveness of sin, that they will ultimately NOT be swayed by such arguments to the point of rejecting Christ. It's that simple. The forgiveness of sins is the bedrock of faith for the true saint that is unmoved by so-called contradictions. If you do not have this bedrock (because of an unwillingness to acknowledge sin guilt and the justice of God) you will be swayed into doubt and unbelief about the Christian faith and be lost on the Day of Judgment.

This is privileged knowledge that the believer has, not the unbeliever (for the believer is the one who has the experience, not the unbeliever) so this may not be very clear to you (this is why I said I don't think you really understand the mind of the believer as you think we do not understand yours). I'd be more than happy to clarify it if you genuinely want to understand it...even if just for argument's sake.

 

[Aardverk]

Hello Jethro. Sorry to see that you didn't ponder it for a few days. You have obviously not thought about things very carefully. You have come back stuck in the same groove saying the same thing over and over almost as if you have cut and pasted whole paragraphs.

.... dissatisfaction with the facts of the Christian faith does not automatically equate to them being wrong

You have certainly not read anything from me saying that Christianity is wrong nor that I am right about my beliefs. They just happen to be my beliefs and there is little I can do about that except pretend to God, to my fellow man and to myself that I believe whatever it is Jethro tells me to believe. Would you like me to try to lie to God? Please bear in mind that you do not know what my beliefs are.

Many Christian are very familiar with the common arguments unbelievers and apostates level against the Bible and the Christian faith. This is not insight into the mind of an apostate that we have to be educated about. We know it already.

Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that I said twice and underlined twice that it was just an example? I was simply emphasizing that the apostate is not some wicked, evil sinner, he is just a thinking man suffering with doubts and who should be pitied. A very simple message really.

They begin to disagree with either the definition of sin, or the character of God and his justice and fairness to hold man accountable for it as the Christian faith teaches that.

Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that different Christian denominations regard different things as sin and maintain that you are 'saved' by different means?

God's love is perhaps the biggest thing that apostates bring into question when they decide to not be a Christian anymore.

You actually have that completely back to front for many apostates. Many believe wholeheartedly in God's love, it is man's teaching that they doubt.

I was posting here for their [fellow believers] benefit...to help them gain some insight on how to deal with those who resist the gospel

I just hope then that not too many people are taking any notice of your advice to call apostates evil.

How does lying to an apostate enable him to then believe the truth about what we Christians don't disagree on--that man is sinful and evil

Sorry if this is news to you but Christians do disagree on whether man is automatically sinful and evil. I do understand your biblical references Jethro but not everyone shares your intolerant view. You sound just like a recent convert to me who is adamant that everyone should 'understand' things your way. Calm down a bit and listen to others.

I know many of the arguments atheists, apostates, and unbelievers level against the Bible. And before the truth can be known about them they do present quite a struggle for the honest follower of God. But the bottom line is, the believer believes so strongly the voice of the Holy Spirit that brought them to acknowledgement of sin and the truth and justice of the judgment to come that they will ultimately NOT be swayed by such arguments to the point of rejecting Christ.

That's absolutely great. I envy you and those people who can ignore the contradictions etc. The point is that many can not and hitting them around the head with the Bible just makes their position worse. I am not asking you to lie to them, just to help them. The advice you are giving, to call them evil sinners, is absolutely the wrong way to go.

In much the same way that a doctor's main aim is to 'do no harm', I suggest that you try to 'do no harm' as well. At the moment you are continuing to alienate any doubter that may happen to read your words. Not a good thing to do Jethro2 unless of course that is your intention.

Just try to understand that, to the apostate and, I would guess, to the majority of people, including Christians, he is not evil, he is troubled. YOU have judged him as evil but that is NOT your place. Who are you to judge? Read that whole passage Jethro, it tells you that you will be judged in the same way. So if you truly believe the Bible - beware.

 

[Elijah674]

Hello Jethro. Sorry to see that you didn't ponder it for a few days. You have obviously not thought about things very carefully. You have come back stuck in the same groove saying the same thing over and over almost as if you have cut and pasted whole paragraphs.

You have certainly not read anything from me saying that Christianity is wrong nor that I am right about my beliefs. They just happen to be my beliefs and there is little I can do about that except pretend to God, to my fellow man and to myself that I believe whatever it is Jethro tells me to believe. Would you like me to try to lie to God? Please bear in mind that you do not know what my beliefs are.
Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that I said twice and underlined twice that it was just an example? I was simply emphasizing that the apostate is not some wicked, evil sinner, he is just a thinking man suffering with doubts and who should be pitied. A very simple message really.
Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that different Christian denominations regard different things as sin and maintain that you are 'saved' by different means?
You actually have that completely back to front for many apostates. Many believe wholeheartedly in God's love, it is man's teaching that they doubt.
I just hope then that not too many people are taking any notice of your advice to call apostates evil.
Sorry if this is news to you but Christians do disagree on whether man is automatically sinful and evil. I do understand your biblical references Jethro but not everyone shares your intolerant view. You sound just like a recent convert to me who is adamant that everyone should 'understand' things your way. Calm down a bit and listen to others.
That's absolutely great. I envy you and those people who can ignore the contradictions etc. The point is that many can not and hitting them around the head with the Bible just makes their position worse. I am not asking you to lie to them, just to help them. The advice you are giving, to call them evil sinners, is absolutely the wrong way to go.

In much the same way that a doctor's main aim is to 'do no harm', I suggest that you try to 'do no harm' as well. At the moment you are continuing to alienate any doubter that may happen to read your words. Not a good thing to do Jethro2 unless of course that is your intention.

Just try to understand that, to the apostate and, I would guess, to the majority of people, including Christians, he is not evil, he is troubled. YOU have judged him as evil but that is NOT your place. Who are you to judge? Read that whole passage Jethro, it tells you that you will be judged in the same way. So if you truly believe the Bible - beware.

______

Elijah here:
I hear you. Now, how about listing what 'you' say in part here....

'That's absolutely great. I envy you and [those people who can ignore the contradictions etc]. The point is that many can not and hitting them around the head with the Bible just makes their position worse.' -{end of part of the quote}

Perhaps I am not reading your post right? I find that man has contradictions of God's WORD, such as Jer. 17:5. But are you saying that 1 Cor. 14 has this Inspiration all wrong?? (to me God is either ALL OR NOTHING!)

[32] And the spirits of the prophets [[are]] subject to the prophets.

And even then the Inspired pen (Rev. 12:17's testimony of Jesus) of man surely had him use his own terms to 'testify' of their Truth. And that is why we see four of what some call the four Gospels which were given us, which are not exact word for word duplicates, but use the penman's words for discribing what they saw. Otherwise one would have been given. But of these we even need to understand the messages penned are understood by us using all 66 bks. of Inspiration. Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16.

I do wish that all postor's could discuss the material rather than cut up the person of the posts!

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I envy you and those people who can ignore the contradictions etc.

It's not ignoring the so-called contradictions. It's choosing to believe and trust in that which we know to be true about sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come (because the Holy Spirit has spoken it to our hearts) instead of caving into people and their doctrines that try to discredit the sure testimony God has sent into the world.

 

[Aardverk]

I have absolutely no idea why that last post was deleted. I will try again and keep a copy this time so I can send it via PM if it gets deleted again.

I hear you. Now, how about listing what 'you' say in part here....

'That's absolutely great. I envy you and [those people who can ignore the contradictions etc]. The point is that many can not and hitting them around the head with the Bible just makes their position worse.' -{end of part of the quote}

Perhaps I am not reading your post right?

I don't think those words can be misunderstood Elijah, I envy people who have such faith that they do not have to think about it decade after decade as many of us do.

You go on to refer to 1 Corinthians 14. I presume you are saying that a mass of people who talk in tongues can be ignored but if the congregation as a whole are saying the same thing then that should be convincing. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way for the apostate as he will know as well as any of us that the majority of the congregation are not there out of a deeply considered conviction following extensive study, they are there simply because that is their practice. They may well have been told what to do years ago as children - and now they carry on with it never questioning the original teaching that they had. Lucky them but not for the thinking apostate.

You next refer to the Inspired penmen of the gospels (yes I do call them gospels). I have never been convinced by this 'Inspired' idea. If God was inspiring the writers of the Bible, I feel sure He would not have introduced as much conflicting instructions.

As you have led me to 1 Corinthians, here is an example of what I do not consider to be Inspired writing and, I would suggest that the majority of Christians agree with me - 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (NIV) It would be interesting to hear the views of a few women at this point! Plenty of churches would be virtually silent if it wasn't for the women. As for 'disorder' - don't get me started!

Rather than being the 'penmen', I very much doubt that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John could read and write and the earliest gospel was written well after at least three of them were dead, probably all of them. At best, what we have is verbal tales passed on for decades before being written down. I guess that would account for some of the differences. We also know that there are a vast number of copying errors over the centuries which may account for other discrepancies.

I do wish that all postor's could discuss the material rather than cut up the person of the posts!

Sorry Elijah, I have tried not to do that but it is a quick way of identifying what was said. The alternative can easily turn into a long rant with much waffle getting further off topic.

I don't really want to go much further along this particular off-topic tangent. I would rather discuss how we should be treating apostates and what motivates them.

 

[Elijah674]

I have absolutely no idea why that last post was deleted. I will try again and keep a copy this time so I can send it via PM if it gets deleted again.


I don't think those words can be misunderstood Elijah, I envy people who have such faith that they do not have to think about it decade after decade as many of us do.

You go on to refer to 1 Corinthians 14. I presume you are saying that a mass of people who talk in tongues can be ignored but if the congregation as a whole are saying the same thing then that should be convincing. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way for the apostate as he will know as well as any of us that the majority of the congregation are not there out of a deeply considered conviction following extensive study, they are there simply because that is their practice. They may well have been told what to do years ago as children - and now they carry on with it never questioning the original teaching that they had. Lucky them but not for the thinking apostate.

You next refer to the Inspired penmen of the gospels (yes I do call them gospels). I have never been convinced by this 'Inspired' idea. If God was inspiring the writers of the Bible, I feel sure He would not have introduced as much conflicting instructions.

As you have led me to 1 Corinthians, here is an example of what I do not consider to be Inspired writing and, I would suggest that the majority of Christians agree with me - 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (NIV) It would be interesting to hear the views of a few women at this point! Plenty of churches would be virtually silent if it wasn't for the women. As for 'disorder' - don't get me started!

Rather than being the 'penmen', I very much doubt that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John could read and write and the earliest gospel was written well after at least three of them were dead, probably all of them. At best, what we have is verbal tales passed on for decades before being written down. I guess that would account for some of the differences. We also know that there are a vast number of copying errors over the centuries which may account for other discrepancies.

Sorry Elijah, I have tried not to do that but it is a quick way of identifying what was said. The alternative can easily turn into a long rant with much waffle getting further off topic.

I don't really want to go much further along this particular off-topic tangent. I would rather discuss how we should be treating apostates and what motivates them.

According to your post...
are you saying that all testimony of the Bible has or has not TRUE HONEST TESTIMONY there??? Surely, as was documented, it all has to be studied as in a cout trial I would think? (Believe!) And then one surely finds the Truthful under/oath one, telling it all in their own words. (or 'Inspired' pen)

OK: Why is all Testimony needed?? So that we can make the correct decisions! Meaning of course that if GODS WORD IS NOT DONE AS REQUIRED, [[the fault lies squarely in & with our KNOWLEDGE & UNDERSTANDING. [NOT THE LORD'S WORD!]

And yes, we as humans do not make good use of study. Just one example is that some never even associate temple, church, sanctuary, throne, vineyard, house, even the Word of table (+ more names) for where God is, (or supposed to be) and which He would have His creation to fellowship with Him both in the spiritual & body.

--Elijah

 

[Aardverk]

It's not ignoring the so-called contradictions.

Calling them 'so-called contradictions' is a bit pointless Jethro. Any experienced Christian is well aware of various contradictions in the Bible.

It's choosing to believe and trust in that which we know to be true about sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come

I have no problem at all with you choosing what to believe - we all do that. None of us can have any certainty that we are right. Alienating people in the way you describe is however, clearly wrong - in my opinion BUT clearly right in your opinion

.....instead of caving into people and their doctrines that try to discredit the sure testimony.......

I think you need to look up the word 'doctrine' Jethro. We are talking here about people with doubts, not people with doctrines. Once you have looked up the word 'doctrine' I am sure you will not even apply that word to me.

I am saddened that you continue to avoid the question asked in the Bible, that 'sure testimony' you speak of - "Who are you to judge?"

Perhaps we can now just agree to differ. I think you are doing great harm by telling doubters that they are evil sinners, you, apparently, think you are doing the Lord's work. If you can not answer that question in blue text, and you obviously can not, I am sure we will never agree.

 

[Aardverk]

Sorry Elijah but I do find it easier to split up your post - so I will. I do not mean to offend you however.

According to your post...
are you saying that all testimony of the Bible has or has not TRUE HONEST TESTIMONY there??? Surely, as was documented, it all has to be studied as in a cout trial I would think? (Believe!) And then one surely finds the Truthful under/oath one, telling it all in their own words. (or 'Inspired' pen)

Unfortunately, I do not believe that the Bible is all 'true, honest testimony'. I think we can see the personal prejudices of the penmen in many places. We also see much conflict which I can not imagine God intending that we should see. I think God would do a far better job of it. That leaves me with many questions about the origins of the Bible and the validity of many parts. That is why I no longer call myself a Christian.

Were the Bible to be subject to examination, as in a court trial, it would undoubtedly be found wanting. The 'evidence' is often so conflicting that an impartial jury would disregard a lot of it and of course the vast majority of it would be disallowed as hearsay evidence. Which parts can we claim to be first person, evidence-in-chief? A competent cross-examiner would have a field day.

That is not to say that it is all wrong. I choose to believe the parts that sound right to me and so do you and so does everyone else yet none of it would pass through cross-examination unscathed.

OK: Why is all Testimony needed?? So that we can make the correct decisions! Meaning of course that if GODS WORD IS NOT DONE AS REQUIRED, [[the fault lies squarely in & with our KNOWLEDGE & UNDERSTANDING. [NOT THE LORD'S WORD!]

I think that is perfectly fair comment. I tend to regard what is written as history rather than 'testimony' and much of the history is undoubtedly correct. Which parts? We do not know. We do not even know which parts of history from 100 years ago are true and that is what leads to apostasy. Someone 'realizes' that what he has long believed is either untrue or questionable and he starts to lose faith. If he is treated harshly by his fellow man and called an 'evil sinner', to quote someone else, he is likely to become an apostate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Alienating people in the way you describe is however, clearly wrong - in my opinion BUT clearly right in your opinion

You never answered my question. How does telling someone they are not evil and sinful, and not in need of forgiveness help them escape the coming judgment?

I think you need to look up the word 'doctrine' Jethro. We are talking here about people with doubts, not people with doctrines. Once you have looked up the word 'doctrine' I am sure you will not even apply that word to me.

It means 'teaching'. We all 'teach' in some form or another when we share our beliefs. Some of us teach the truth through what we share, while some of lead others astray into error by what they say. The Bible is the standard by which we measure what 'teaching' is correct and which is not in the Christian religion. You do not share what the Bible teaches. If you don't like what the Bible clearly says, you can choose another religion that aligns more carefully with what you already believe to be true about God and sin because what you believe has no part of Christianity whatsoever.

I am saddened that you continue to avoid the question asked in the Bible, that 'sure testimony' you speak of - "Who are you to judge?"

I already answered this. You are not paying attention. It is not judging to simply pass along what Jesus and the Bible says:

"...unless you believe that I (Jesus) am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24 NASB)

Continue in the path you are on and you will die unsaved. Take it or leave it, this is clearly what the Bible says. This is not judging anybody. Apply it to yourself, for as Paul says, if we judge ourselves we would not come under the judgment of the world. But if you reject the Christian standard by which mankind is judged what else can be said to you? You're looking for a sympathy that is not available in the Christian religion. You'll have to go to another forum to find what you want to hear. That's just the way it is. I told you what you need to hear and you rejected it. There's nothing left to say. You're insisting that we change the Christian religion for you, and we're not going to do that. That would make us hypocritical liars.

I think you are doing great harm by telling doubters that they are evil sinners, you, apparently, think you are doing the Lord's work.

Just tell me how telling you that you are good and righteous and not evil by nature (like the rest of us are evil by nature) somehow equates to doing the Lord's work as measured and defined by the Bible. Show me in the Bible this teaching that you don't have to admit sin guilt to be saved on the Day of Judgment.

 

[WIP]

Let's try to remain focused on the topic rather than opinions about each other.

 

[Elijah674]

Sorry Elijah but I do find it easier to split up your post - so I will. I do not mean to offend you however.

Unfortunately, I do not believe that the Bible is all 'true, honest testimony'. I think we can see the personal prejudices of the penmen in many places. We also see much conflict which I can not imagine God intending that we should see. I think God would do a far better job of it. That leaves me with many questions about the origins of the Bible and the validity of many parts. That is why I no longer call myself a Christian.

Were the Bible to be subject to examination, as in a court trial, it would undoubtedly be found wanting. The 'evidence' is often so conflicting that an impartial jury would disregard a lot of it and of course the vast majority of it would be disallowed as hearsay evidence. Which parts can we claim to be first person, evidence-in-chief? A competent cross-examiner would have a field day.

That is not to say that it is all wrong. I choose to believe the parts that sound right to me and so do you and so does everyone else yet none of it would pass through cross-examination unscathed.


I think that is perfectly fair comment. I tend to regard what is written as history rather than 'testimony' and much of the history is undoubtedly correct. Which parts? We do not know. We do not even know which parts of history from 100 years ago are true and that is what leads to apostasy. Someone 'realizes' that what he has long believed is either untrue or questionable and he starts to lose faith. If he is treated harshly by his fellow man and called an 'evil sinner', to quote someone else, he is likely to become an apostate.

Hi, 'i' seem to spin my wheels quite a bit! Let me say it another way?? There are some 'choice' words recorded in the Lords Book. Yet [AGAIN,] it was the 'Inspired picture' that was seen & put down in the penman's (perhaps) best discriptive personal words. Surely the words of piss or bastard are hard on the ears of some today, and no one thinks that these are the words used by God, right? (not you or I anyway) So, who is at fault here, God or man?

And that is just one on many stupid (not you or me perhaps??) way's that folks cut up the Inspiration of God when He gave this Book to us... [USING RETARDED MAN]. (retarded meaning as no where near PERFECT! IQ, Hearing, height, weight, talent, + ALL ELSE!;))
Most today do not even consider that God talked person to person with His own up until Mt. Sinai. And before the flood man lived nearly 1000 years old. And surely the mind needed NO Books to go back to while still being near perfect I.Q./wise, most likely! They were even of only one language & one speech. (Gen. 10's last verse & verse 1 of ibid 11)

And Apostasy?? Just consider the gibberish at the Tower of Babel & the idea of 'tongues' speech of today's (some) church's?? But whatever, that surely cannot be blamed on God can it?? (and my spelling??)

--Elijah

 

[Aardverk]

And Apostasy?? Just consider the gibberish at the Tower of Babel & the idea of 'tongues' speech of today's (some) church's?? But whatever, that surely cannot be blamed on God can it?? (and my spelling??)

I think we are in almost full agreement Elijah but the rest of your post could be considered off-topic so I will end this particular tangent here.