Apostate Verses Believer

[Rollo Tamasi]

(Post deleted. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[Drew]

We know the works of the believer effect in no way eternal life, but rather manifests eternal life has been received, which can only be effected by faith in Christ's redemptive work.

But that is simply not what the text says, unless there has been a translation error, and I am certainly open to this possibility but I thinks the odds of such an error are slim to none. Here it is again with appropriate emphasis:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

I politely challenge you to write a statement of the form "Agent X gives <something> to person Z according to what person Z has done" that does not mean that the basis for, the grounds of, the reason for, the cause of, that gift is what that person has done.

And by the way, nothing I have posted can be legitimately taken to deny that Christ's redemptive work is what makes it possible for a person to do works, or even more or less ensures that the person will do good works.

 

[reba]

sheesh closed for moderator review... Obadiah

 

[Obadiah]

Thread cleaned up and re-opened now. How many times to we have to beg people to follow the rules?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In verse 9 Paul showed he was convinced that the Hebrew believers he was speaking to were beyond that of rejecting Christ, but felt he needed to mention what he had to them concerning the unbelievers, so they would be careful to identify them, this is what is meant by "though we thus speak," i.e. I know you believe in the Lord Jesus but I still wanted to speak to you about the others who do not (in which some were probably among the believers and hearing this).

This passage completely defies that theory:

23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
(Hebrews 10:23,26-27,29 NASB)

The warning to not fall away is given directly to "us (who) hold unswervingly to the hope we profess" and to those who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ. He's speaking directly to those who are presently holding unswervingly to the hope of Christ, but who are apparently in danger of abandoning their hope, their faith in Christ. And the penalty for doing so is clearly spelled out. He is not speaking to people who never believed.

Some will argue that to profess Christ is one thing, while to possess him is another. If these are merely professors and possessors, why does the author want them to hold fast to a false profession? Shouldn't he rather be telling them to get real? But he doesn't do that. Instead, the whole letter is telling them to stay the course they are on, which as I've pointed out, includes an abundance of genuine works of faith, not the absence of works in accordance with the dead 'faith' of an unsaved person.

And some will argue that you can be sanctified by the blood of Christ and still not be saved. According to the passage above, do any of us go around telling unbelievers that they are sanctified by the blood of Christ, yet do not belong to Christ? Note that the agent of sanctification here is the blood of Christ. It's impossible to be made holy by the blood of Christ and not be saved. This is not a sanctification by the blood of animals (which has no power to save), nor is it the legal cleansing for the sake of physical contact with unbelievers. It is a sanctification by the blood of Christ. That means nothing short of salvation. The author is plainly talking about saved people trampling on the blood that sanctified them and being condemned with unbelievers for doing that.

 

[netchaplain]

So, back in Heb 2:9, then, Jesus was only "trying" or "sampling" when He "tasted death for all"? The same word for "taste" in 2:9 is found in 6:4. I recall John MacArthur once quipped that those in ch 6 tasted as in "licking an ice cream cone". Apparently he was as ignorant of the fact that the same word was used in 2:9 as in 6:4 as FW Grant was.

Hi FG - Pretty good reply and thanks for your input. Nearly all words have more than one meaning, that's why establishing the context determines the meaning of the contents in view.


Lexicon :: Strong's G1089 - geuomai

γεύομαι

Transliteration

geuomai

Pronunciation

gyü'-o-mī taste (12x), eat (3x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

to taste, to try the flavour of

i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy


to feel, make trial of, experience


to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat


https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1089&t=KJV

In my opinion, the Greek for "taste" has a definitive to the concept of something not only being temporal, but also that of a partial experience. In the case of the Lord Jesus' taste of death, it was temporal (to try; make trial of) for He did not need to experience the full capacity of death, which is the eternal "the second death."


Thus tasting "the heavenly gift" and the good Word of God (Heb 6:4, 5) is what insincere professors-only fall from, hence the avoidance of any permanency in their walk and eventually in their life, which becomes obvious to them and others later.


Attempting to explain one’s believes on the most important teachings can be difficult to clearly present, so if any portions of my replies seem to be unclear or not necessarily sensible, that’s why. For myself, I’ve learned many truths that only God will revel to us are hard to learn from by other’s explanations, but the understanding concerning an issue eventually comes after a certain amount of prayer, study and waiting.

What source indicates that it means to leave something that one was merely "interested in but never accepted"?

Mat 13:20, 21

Mark 4:5, 6, 16, 17

Luke 8:13

1Jhn 2:19


2Pet 2:20:
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world ...” The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said {q}, "he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled amle ypwnjb, "with the pollutions of the world," what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:" these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


God’s blessings to your Family

 

[netchaplain]

This passage completely defies that theory:

23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
(Hebrews 10:23,26-27,29 NASB)

The warning to not fall away is given directly to "us (who) hold unswervingly to the hope we profess" and to those who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ. He's speaking directly to those who are presently holding unswervingly to the hope of Christ, but who are apparently in danger of abandoning their hope, their faith in Christ. And the penalty for doing so is clearly spelled out. He is not speaking to people who never believed.

We just understand it differently Brother. I see it that he is speaking to those he certain will not "fall away," etc. "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation" (v 9).

Some will argue that to profess Christ is one thing, while to possess him is another.

True it is, and many there are! (Isa 29:13; Mat 15:8; Mark 7:6)

 

[smaller]

Let's look at the Hebrew 6 citing, which is often used to attempt to possibly condemn believers who fall away.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There is an extreme problem in most forms of theology to only see people or, in the case of the above, only the believer. This is the extreme problem because it is a false basis of understanding.

Let's look first at our prior to belief state of mind:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The above was the internal, mind state of those who do not believe. They are, in essence, blinded by the god of this world. This identical state is repeated by Paul, here, and laid on every believer in their prior state of blindness, and again points to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience, who is in fact "Satan, the god of this world, the devil who blinds the mind of the unbeliever."

Ephesians 2:2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Paul again, affirms this identical sight here, showing that we are in effect, turned from Satan's power:

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

When any of us believe, the Light of God in Christ has been shed in our hearts, and the blinder has been, in essence, pulled back from our minds in order for us to believe. This is done and performed by the Power of God in Christ in any believers heart. His Light, in essence has been SHINED within, upon our captor, and we were released from his mind hold. Satan is repelled in that action, by God in Christ.

In this matter we have, in the flesh, what is a reversal of the roles. We are placed in a dominant position, yet we are still in the flesh. The flesh still remains subject to temptations and lusts, which are and always have been the instruments of Satan whereby Satan retains his holding power. These matters remain in the flesh for any believer, but we are now placed above that working in our flesh, by Christ within us. And we now see these fleshly lusts and temptations for what they are. DEMONIC. And we do not by our new nature want or desire to be again, enslaved. But this battle does not cease from the flesh. It is placed in subjugation.

We gellin? If we see the above, we should not be viewing ourselves as just an individual. There is the fatal flaw of most forms of theology.

NOW, the writer of Hebrews launches into an allegory of this identical matter:

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Once we are saved, we are saved. There is, from that point onward, no possibility of repenting again. It is impossible, once this internal division from our prior adversary is done. It is impossible. The division or cutting or heart circumcision has been performed. It is the other working however that we will still contend with, and it is that exact deception of Satan, the tempter in the flesh, that condemns believers, will continue to "try" to condemn believers and will say that what Christ has wrought, did not happen and is not sufficient. That is the operation of the tempter in the flesh, to which the writer of Hebrews points to and directs us to observe in the subsequent allegory statements.

Paul himself carried that same thorn, a messenger of Satan, in his own flesh, that he contended with.

We are not yet relieved from this battle, in the flesh. We are placed, dominant, above it.

Therefore, any form of theology, that does not recognize this continuing contention in the flesh, or recognize that these battles are in fact internal, in the flesh, with the enemy of our soul, is a false theology.

There is no such theological animal as a believer only on this present earth. We all bear our adversary in the forms of temptations and lusts in the flesh. This is Gods Light, shed upon our enemy, and we should recognize our state in the flesh.

Now the first internally partly blinded person will rush to James, and try to pin temptations or lusts only on the believer. But that simply isn't the case. Whatever lusts or temptations we have IS particular to us, just as a specific messenger of Satan was put upon the flesh of Paul. That makes it our temptations or our lusts in particular, but that does not mean it isn't demonic or of the tempter, just as it was for Paul, from the messenger of Satan in his own flesh, that thorn.

And this is also exactly what the writer of Hebrews isolates as well, in the subsequent allegory statements.

We rule and reign over sin. And yes, sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8. And yes, our own ground can be over run with thorns and thistles. That does not mean we were not once, permanent, divided. There are many who's ground becomes over run by numerous battles with thorns and thistles that still transpire in the flesh. Hypocrisy for example is a thorn/thistle plague in the churches. Everyone therein thinks they are entirely rosy and clean, and seeks to justify the entirety of themselves, currently, when that is not the case of the flesh. We have not yet been released from this working of the tempter in sinful flesh, and therefore our body remains VILE.

This is the basis of promise for our NEW BODY which will not have this built in problem.

 

[smaller]

We also see Paul's commendation for those believers who's body has been over run by thorns and thistles, in their ground, by Satan. "Deliver them over to Satan" for what? For the destruction of their flesh, but that they themselves, may be saved. It is intolerable to bear ground that has been blatantly over run by the thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan therein, in the church, as it is, in effect, Satan showing his dominance over that body, and flaunting "himself" before other believers, openly.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

True it is, and many there are! (Isa 29:13; Mat 15:8; Mark 7:6)

And so I ask, why does the author want them to hold fast to a false profession?:

"23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful." (Hebrews 10:23 NASB)


He obviously thinks their profession is a saving profession. He even talks at length about their (not someone else's) sufferings and good deeds, firmly cementing the case for their's being a profession that can save them, not a false, fake profession. This context shows us he is clearly talking to them, not some lost, fake professors among them when he says this:

"26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
(Hebrews 10:26,29 NASB)


Hebrews 10 is what finally got me off the fence about OSAS. I'm astounded by the way the modern church has rationalized away the plain truths of the scriptures using these 'not really' doctrines--not really saved, not really sanctified, not really believing, etc. I honestly believe it's part of the end-times deceit that is sweeping the church and making her the apostate church of the end-times.

Of course, almost no one stands up and says, "hey, I'm an apostate". But when the church prescribes to doctrines that excuse the failed faith of former believers in the name of these hyper-grace beliefs, she is apostate. The belief being that they are still saved despite their dead faith, directly contradicting Paul and James' teaching on the matter. Or that they never 'really' believed to begin with.

It doesn't help either, when non-OSAS people go all the way to the other extreme and teach a veiled works salvation. We all have to start reading the Bible for ourselves and resist the power of these indoctrinations and distance ourselves from the church fathers and their writings who planted these various false doctrines in the church.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Satan, the tempter in the flesh, that condemns believers, will continue to "try" to condemn believers and will say that what Christ has wrought, did not happen and is not sufficient.

No, no, no.
Believers are not condemned. Unbelievers are the ones that are condemned!
I don't care how you paint it up to look good, unbelievers will not be saved on the Day of Wrath. You haven't proved that believers can become unbelievers. That is the point of discussion. We're not debating what happens to believers.

This warning was written to believers, not unbelievers:

"26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
(Hebrews 10:26,29 NASB)

They have trampled on the free gift they received. They don't believe in it anymore as evidenced by their sinning. If they continued to believe in it, their sinning would not be deliberate and would be continually taken to the Father and washed away. But as it is, the warning is to those believers who end their faith and no longer do that. They have become unbelievers. They are the ones who are condemned by the author's teaching above, not believers. Unbelievers, and former believers are the one's in danger of God's wrath, not believers. Nobody is condemning believers here.

 

[smaller]

No, no, no.
Believers are not condemned.

This appears to be a turnabout of your long standing claims that they might be.

This warning was written to believers, not unbelievers:

I might observe that is not in concurrence with your above claim, and to be consistent, you should revise to they "may" not be condemned or they might be condemned.

If we observe the allegory by the writer of Hebrews, we might understand that in our own ground abides thorns and briars, that can grow up, in that ground, to choke us. That doesn't mean we aren't saved. It only means our ground, our body, may be over ran with the growth of thorns and briars and we are then not fit for much good in our present flesh life. We all know our present body is going to be lost to the dust in any case, because it is vile. Sin abides in the flesh, and it is therefore, already slated for death.

The seed of faith does however spring up from that death ground, and needs to be tended to in order to grow.

Hebrews 6
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

We can observe that any ground in the natural will have both fruit/flower and weed/thorn.

It is no different in our natural body, in the spiritual senses. Both good and bad are in the ground.

 

[JLB]

Also, he is a continual reminder of how Christians should talk to other people, something I need and appreciate in him.

:nod

JLB a verse ? the one in your siggy does not count...

 

[JLB]

This appears to be a turnabout of your long standing claims that they might be.

He has always stated that believers who later turn away from God have become unbelievers.

It is also relevant to note that unbelief and disobedience are the same word and are used interchangeably.
See Hebrews 4:6 NKJV and KJV

Disobedience, that is to say, those who stop obeying the Gospel, are those who stop believing the Gospel.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, means we turn to God.

If we later, because of becoming hardened through sin, we turn back away from Him, then we can not expect to partake of Christ.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi FG - Pretty good reply and thanks for your input. Nearly all words have more than one meaning, that's why establishing the context determines the meaning of the contents in view.
Lexicon :: Strong's G1089 - geuomai
γεύομαι
Transliteration
geuomai
Pronunciation
gyü'-o-mī taste (12x), eat (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage

to taste, to try the flavour of
i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
to feel, make trial of, experience
to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1089&t=KJV

In my opinion, the Greek for "taste" has a definitive to the concept of something not only being temporal, but also that of a partial experience.

I don't see the concept of "partial experience" in the word. If one eats an entire ice cream cone, or only licks it, he has experienced exactly and fully what the flavor of the ice cream is. I'm not even sure what a "partial experience" would mean.

In the sense of tasting, the issue is the flavor, not the quantity of the flavor. There is no way MacArthur or anyone else can make the claim that Heb 6:4 means tasting as in only experiencing a lick vs eating the whole ice cream cone.

Jesus tasted death for everyone just as the believers in 6:4 tasted of the heavenly gift.

Also, I cannot imagine how any unbeliever would be able to taste of the heavenly gift without experiencing it.

Recall that the gift of God is justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17), eternal life (Rom 6:23) and salvation (Eph 2:8). How does one "partially experience" any of these? I don't understand how that could be.

I think the real problem with 6:4 is thinking that to "fall away" equals loss of salvation, when there is no reason to believe that. Falling away means to cease following the faith, even possibly ceasing to believe what was once believed, which is what apostatize means.

But we also know that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). So even those who fall away from the faith remain saved, for that reason.

In the case of the Lord Jesus' taste of death, it was temporal (to try; make trial of) for He did not need to experience the full capacity of death, which is the eternal "the second death."

Actually, He most assuredly did fully experience the "second death", which is separation from God. We know that by what He said on the cross: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" During His time on the cross and while He was fully experiencing this separation from His Father, He was paying the penalty for the sins of mankind. This was no partial thing, nor only a temporal thing. His physical death following His real separation from His Father added nothing to His work on the cross. Which is why He dismissed His spirit when His work was finished (Jn 19:30). When there was nothing more to do, He had no more reason to remain on this earth, so He voluntarily and actively dismissed His spirit.

Thus tasting "the heavenly gift" and the good Word of God (Heb 6:4, 5) is what insincere professors-only fall from, hence the avoidance of any permanency in their walk and eventually in their life, which becomes obvious to them and others later.

I respectfully disagree.

God’s blessings to your Family

As well to you and yours!

 

[FreeGrace]

He has always stated that believers who later turn away from God have become unbelievers.

What verse in the Bible teaches that any believer can or has become an unbeliever and is called such from the Bible? There are none. That is only an erroneous opinion, not Scripturally sound.

 

[smaller]

He has always stated that believers who later turn away from God have become unbelievers.

So you may think. I might think better of them, that their ground was over run by thorns and briars, in their body, but they will be saved, regardless. And noted such sight by Paul also, in

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It does none of us any good to cast our eyes on the dispersion on a believer, when we can see their body over run with thorns and thistles in their ground. We have hope for them, regardless of the "garden" being taken over by the other working, of the thorn and the thistle, and in fact we are perpetually called to "restore" such, that they may again be useful in their present life. We also have "weeds" to tend to in our own ground.

We can point to the thorn and/or the briar in the ground, and not condemn the believer, but the fallen ground, and the source of the problem.

It is also relevant to note that unbelief and disobedience are the same word and are used interchangeably.
See Hebrews 4:6 NKJV and KJV

Disobedience, that is to say, those who stop obeying the Gospel, are those who stop believing the Gospel.

Thorns and briars will never obey and were never meant to. Again, only seeing believers in these matters is void sight. All ground, having sin indwelling, is in fact, vile regardless, with the presence of factual good and evil therein. No ground is exempt from both good and evil, but it can be over run with evil. I might say condemnation to believers is a form of being over run, as that sight is strictly forbidden by Jesus.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

What grows from the planting of good and evil remains to be seen. But the Seed of Perfection will Perform for that believer, regardless, and they can not be condemned, on the basis of Christ and not on the basis of what they are in the flesh.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This appears to be a turnabout of your long standing claims that they might be.

No, like usual you and others simply can't hear the argument being presented because of the power of indoctrinations that make it so that even what we hear in opposition to our favorite indoctrinations can only be heard according to that indoctrination.

So, listen carefully: The argument is that believers BECOME unbelievers and are THEN condemned. No believer can be condemned because by virtue of what it means to be a 'believer' their sins are covered by the blood of Christ--because they have faith that it does! That's what salvation is ALL about. But the 'believer' who in contempt and unbelief tramples on the blood of Christ through which their sins are forgiven no longer has the benefit of that forgiveness (Hebrews 10:26 NASB). They have rejected it in favor of willful sinning. They have become unbelievers...condemned unbelievers. That's what the author of Hebrews is saying in Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB. The warning is for every believer, not just for those who never believed to begin with.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left" (Hebrews 10:26 NASB)

With the sacrifice of Jesus no longer available to cover our sins, we are now subject to the wrath of God, not protected from it. That's why we have to keep on believing to the very end, as evidenced by our resistance to sin, not our willful obedience to it, in order to be saved on the Day of God's Wrath. You can't have the benefit of a forgiveness that you once had, but have now rejected. A lying spirit has gripped the church and has led us to believe that we are saved 'no matter what'. Simply not true. The danger being, this teaching makes us take false comfort in the grace of God being a license to sin. I'm convinced that is the deceit that will be the downfall of this end-times church.

 

[smaller]

No, like usual you and others simply can't hear the argument being presented because of the power of indoctrinations that make it so that even what we hear in opposition to our favorite indoctrinations can only be heard according to that indoctrination.

I don't accept any position that condemns believers. That is certain. Not even as a potential.

I believe what Jesus said here is Absolute and Certain:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

No one can make that happen, but Him.

And when I hear believers potentially condemning believers, I turn to Christ's Words, for his answer, to see who is telling the truth. And those who are opposed.

So, listen carefully: The argument is that believers BECOME unbelievers and are THEN condemned.

And that would be only your imposition on a believer, the sight that belongs upon our adversary. Why don't you condemn the correct one?

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I might even observe that those who have fallen into the condemnation of believers, have themselves, fallen to a certain extent into the condemnation of the devil.

1 Timothy 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

It is only the novice that doesn't know which way to properly direct adverse judgment, and will instead be led themselves into the blaming and accusation of the "brethren."

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This practice is rampant in the churches.

Let's turn the tide of judgment amongst ourselves in the direction it belongs.

 

[JLB]

What verse in the Bible teaches that any believer can or has become an unbeliever and is called such from the Bible? There are none. That is only an erroneous opinion, not Scripturally sound.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while.

Someone who believes for a while, then no longer believes is a person who has become an unbeliever.

These are unbelieving ones... the very example of an Apostate person who used to believe.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8


JLB