Apostate Verses Believer

[JLB]

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame” (Heb 6:4-6).

It is essential for us to understand clearly from what these Hebrews might apostatize. Be it observed that there is no mention here of their having been born again, converted, justified, saved, having had the forgiveness of sins or eternal life. Of none who are declared to be in that position is there ever any doubt of their security, or any hint in the Word that after all they might apostatize, or be lost. On the contrary, the thought is carefully guarded against in Scripture. But as to these Hebrews:

They were “enlightened.” And “the true light lighteneth every man which cometh into the world” (Jhn 1:9); but that this is not necessarily saving knowledge is plain. There may be conviction where there is no conversion, as we see daily.

They had “tasted of the heavenly gift,” and “of the good Word of God.” But so had he who received seed upon the stony ground; he “immediately with joy received it.” We see that all too often. The Word is welcomed; it is not understood. Only “he who received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the Word and understandeth it” (Mat 13:23). It is possible thus to have a false peace, and to find joy in the Gospel, which after all has never been apprehended savingly by the soul, and has never brought forth fruit in it at all.

Further, they “were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” and had tasted of “the powers of the world to come.” This last expression refers to miraculous power, and the “world to come” is literally the “coming age.” Here, as elsewhere, it refers to the millennium, when the signs and wonders which signaled the early days of Christianity will be resumed. The prophet Joel (Acts 2:28, 29) witnesses of this; and his prophecy the apostle Peter could take up at Pentecost, and apply to what God did by His Spirit at that time. Yet the prophecy itself, however much it might take in Pentecost, goes on to the restoration of Israel in the millennial kingdom.

Miracles could therefore fitly be called “powers of the coming age.” But we have the Lord’s assurance that men might thus be “partakers of the Holy Spirit”—and yet after all He might say to them, “I never knew you” (Mat 7:22, 23). It is clear therefore that in this since they might be “partakers of the Holy Spirit” and yet be lost. The Spirit crying “Abba, Father,” in us is another matter. Those who are thus “sealed by the Holy Spirit” until the day of promise” are “sealed unto the day of redemption” (Eph 1:13; 4:30). In this case therefore there is no possibility of being lost.

But these Hebrews here described were in danger of stopping short of Christ, and by going back to the ranks of those who crucified Him, they would have “crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame.” It is open apostasy that is in question, going back to Judaism out of which they had come, and what hope could there for such?

- F W Grant

These are born again believers who turned back to the law of Moses.

As such there is no sacrifice for sin.


JLB

 

[netchaplain]

But the text I quoted does not, I think, allow you to make this distinction work. Here it is again:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:12-13, NASB].

For your position to survive the logic of this text, it has to be the case that "brethren" can include non-believers since Paul clearly says some of these can be lost ("if you live according to the flesh, you must die"). Well, I think that is highly unlikely given the context, not least the fact that the whole letter is directed to the church at Rome, but I concede I am not prepared to make that case.

You make good points, but we will be at an impasse on this one. I see it in the fact that "we" are not obliged to obey sin, identifies the believer from the unbeliever, who lives by the sinful nature (flesh). I would be confused to think that after truly seeking God to "lead " me that I could somehow develop the desire not to, when God is "working in me both to desire and do His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13), and His Spirit leading me (Gal 5:17, 18).

 

[reba]

Definitely my fault Sis, due to my change forums for more correspondence. Which also helps me understand why you would rather me not post in multiple forums.

You are welcome to post in any of the threads ... I do not always agree with what you say but i am sure thankful for the way you post ,,


This is the A&T ,, Admins need to follow the rules also...

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame” (Heb 6:4-6).

This is a topic i am still on the fence about .. but i am edging to the believe we can walk away from God.... I dont think it is a simple turn and we are gone... The convicting power of the Holy Spirit can keep pounding on us

 

[Brother Mike]

I think netchaplain does quite well with his own revelation.
Also, he is a continual reminder of how Christians should talk to other people, something I need and appreciate in him.

If I recall, my comment vanished and is no longer real in this realm. (Edited, too close to violating ToS 2.14. Obadiah.) Therefore, I have no idea what your talking about.

 

[netchaplain]

You are welcome to post in any of the threads ... I do not always agree with what you say but i am sure thankful for the way you post ,,

Appreciate the compliment! Love you in Christ!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

These are born again believers who turned back to the law of Moses.

As such there is no sacrifice for sin.


JLB

Matthew 7:21-23;
Who are these people?
If our Lord never knew them, then they were never saved to begin with.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Be it observed that there is no mention here of their having been born again, converted, justified, saved, having had the forgiveness of sins or eternal life.

- F W Grant

Not even remotely true. Chapter 10 shows us these people in the Hebrew church are not only saved, but also have been very active in their faith, even suffering for it:

23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. (Hebrews 10:23-39 NASB)
​

They are professing hope in Christ (vs.23). They have been sanctified by the blood of Christ (vs.29). They had received the light (vs.32). They have suffered for being Christians, even being insulted and persecuted (vs.32-33). They stood side by side with the same (vs.33). They had 'better and lasting possessions' (vs.34). They have confidence in the hope they profess (vs.35). If they keep doing what they're doing they'll receive what has been promised at the coming of Christ (vs.36-37).

It is impossible to argue that somehow the Hebrew church was only saved in pretense. The warning to not fall away, trampling on the blood of Christ, or else suffer the fiery judgment of God that will consume the enemies of God, was written to saved Christians, active and suffering for the hope the author shows they do in fact possess.

 

[ezrider]

Matthew 7:21-23;
Who are these people?
If our Lord never knew them, then they were never saved to begin with.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Lord, Lord can also be translated as Master, Master.

This has nothing to do with whether or not they believe in Christ Jesus. This has everything to do with their relationship to to G-d. Everyone was invited to the wedding feast, but most do not come. The scripture is clear that you should no longer call him your MASTER, but you shall call him your HUSBAND. These people in this passage do not know Him as their Husband.

Hosea 2:16 (NKJV)
“And it shall be, in that day,”
Says the Lord,
“ That you will call Me ‘My Husband'
And no longer call Me ‘My Master' "

This also corresponds to the following scripture:

Jeremiah 23:5-8
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, the Lord our Righteousness. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

They work iniquity because they continue to serve their MASTER and LORD who delivered them from the land of Egypt, and they continue to serve the Law of Moses and continue to offer up the blood of Jesus as their sacrifice for their sins according to that law. They do not know him as their HUSBAND and they have not known the Law of Christ as it came forth from Zion.

 

[netchaplain]

Not even remotely true. Chapter 10 shows us these people in the Hebrew church are not only saved, but also have been very active in their faith, even suffering for it:

It is impossible to argue that somehow the Hebrew church was only saved in pretense. The warning to not fall away, trampling on the blood of Christ, or else suffer the fiery judgment of God that will consume the enemies of God, was written to saved Christians, active and suffering for the hope the author shows they do in fact possess.​

Hi JB - Good to see you and you are correct concerning the Hebrew believers, and your reply would be a very strong and effective correction if the author of this article were referring to the Hebrew believers, but Paul is talking to the believers in reference to unbelievers, who have been informed concerning the Gospel but will not choose to believe in Christ.

These are those in verses 4-6 and 8, who "taste" the truths about Christ but never accept Him. In verse 9 Paul showed he was convinced that the Hebrew believers he was speaking to were beyond that of rejecting Christ, but felt he needed to mention what he had to them concerning the unbelievers, so they would be careful to identify them, this is what is meant by "though we thus speak," i.e. I know you believe in the Lord Jesus but I still wanted to speak to you about the others who do not (in which some were probably among the believers and hearing this).

Strong advocacy post Brother, and God's blessing to your Family!

​

 

[Seabass]

Hi Seabass - Appreciate your input and let us be mindful that our correspondence is not out of opposition to our beliefs, but to get at the truth. What I share merely represents why I believe the teachings I have accepted.

There is no indication of "enlightened" in Scripture that confirms the Gospel of salvation accepted by faith, just the reception of its knowledge. All who have been enlightened to the knowledge of the Gospel of Christ and has received Him by faith are saved, but not all who have been enlightened to the knowledge of the Gospel of Christ has received Him by faith. Nor do I see in the passages you've noted anything that addresses enlightenment, but rather the Light of Christ which brings enlightenment; not just in knowledge only (often sought for due to being interested but not necessarily for salvation) but in saving knowledge.

It only confirms receiving knowledge of the Gospel, not its acceptance by faith. One can receive "the knowledge of the truth" (Heb 10:26) and continue to "sin willfully" (i.e. remain an unbeliever).

"Tasting" does not confirm acceptance but only trying or sampling.

Unbelievers can be "partakers of the Spirit of God" by Him using them, which does not confirm salvation received (Mat 7:22, 23), same for Simon (Acts 8:18-24) who was interested in what God can do, but not to the saving of his soul.

Apostatizing means to deny, renounce or leave something. It does not confirm that one who apostasies from something means they left something they have before accepted, but rather something in which they were interested but have never accepted. The permanent leaving confirms acceptance was never established, or they would not have left (1Jhn 2:19).

Though two can share their beliefs, I believe the most important and difficult-to-understand passages cannot necessarily be learned by someone explaining them, but it must be accompanied by the Spirit's individual teaching of it.

God's blessings to your Family!

The Hebrew writer must have been speaking of the saved for he speaks of them having (past tense) fallen away (not just the possibility of falling away as the KJV has it). One who has never been saved is already and always fallen therefore cannot fall. Again, it would not be possible to 'renew' them AGAIN unto repentance if they had never been renewed before.

"Enlightened" means they had come to light to be saved. The Hebrew writer is writing his epistle to Christians, 'brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling' Heb 3:1 and Heb 10:32 says of these Christians "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were enlightened, ye endured a great conflict of sufferings;" the 'after ye were enlightened' refers to their having become Christians they suffered great conflict of sufferings imposed upon then by the non-Christian Hebrews Heb 10:33. They had received the light, the Light being Christ Jn 12:46. One is either in darkness or light, cannot be both at the same time and those of Heb 6:4 had come from the darkness into light. They were "once enlightened" but had fallen away. The word 'once' indicates that had been enlightened before but had fallen away from that enlightenment. They were now in a state where it would be impossible to bring them back AGAIN to that enlightenment....saved state of being in the light.

In 2 Pet 1,21 Peter speaks of those who had become Christians by having " escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." They had become saved by knowledge - enlightenment by the gospel of Christ - coming to the light out of darkness.

having tasted, tasted means to have experienced as in Heb 2:9 Christ did not merely 'sample' death or just come 'close' to death but actually tasted death in that He truly experience, received death. They had truly experienced the heavenly gift having received the gift of eternal life. Rom 6:23

Partakers of the Holy Spirit. Calvinist Albert Barnes says of this (my emp) "Partakers of the influences of the Holy Spirit - for it is only in this sense that we can partake of the Holy Spirit. We “partake” of food when we share it with others; we “partake” of pleasure when we enjoy it with others; we “partake” of spoils in war when they are divided between us and others. So we partake of the influences of the Holy Spirit when we share these influences conferred on his people. This is not language which can properly be applied to anyone but a true Christian; and though it is true that an unpardoned sinner may be enlightened and awakened by the Holy Spirit, yet the language used here is not such as would be likely to be employed to describe his state. It is too clearly expressive of those influences which renew and sanctify the soul. It is as elevated language as can be used to describe the joy of the Christian, and is undoubtedly used in that sense here. If it is not, it would be difficult to find any language which would properly express the condition of a renewed heart."

Partakers of the Holy Spirit = partakers of the heavenly calling of Heb 3:1.

It is very painfully obvious these Hebrews were Christian with some haven fallen away.

 

[netchaplain]

The Hebrew writer must have been speaking of the saved for he speaks of them having (past tense) fallen away (not just the possibility of falling away as the KJV has it).

It is very painfully obvious these Hebrews were Christian with some haven fallen away.

I believe the issue here is what the author stated concerning, "from what these Hebrews might apostatize." To me Hebrews 6:4-6 is an example of showing how much one can know, and even be used by the Spirit of God in gifts (partaker of the Spirit in the sign ministry) which concern the power of God (i.e. Mat 7) and yet still not accept truth but rather eventually fall from an obviously insincere pursuit of it, due to never having been born again. It's clear to me that one who has been born again will remain in the faith, because his stand in it is not a false profession, but instead manifests God's glory in truth.

Please excuse my posting of Gill's comment below (Matt 7:22) if it seems too lengthy in taking up space, but I find it worthy of presenting and hope it's acceptable to do so:

"Have we not prophesied in thy name? This may be understood either of foretelling things to come; which gift wicked men may have, who have never had any experience of the grace of God, as Balaam, and Caiaphas, and others; or rather of preaching the word, which is sometimes called prophesying, Romans 12:6 and which may be done in the name of Christ, pretending mission and authority from him, and to be preachers of him, and yet be no better than "sounding brass," or "a tinkling cymbal"; yea, nothing at all as to true grace, or spiritual experience.

"And in thy name have cast out devils? Diabolical possessions were very frequent in the times of Christ; no doubt but they were suffered, that Jesus might have an opportunity of showing his power over Satan, by dispossessing him from the bodies, as well as the souls of men; and of giving proof of his deity, divine sonship and Messiahship: and this power of casting out devils was given to others, not only to the twelve apostles, among whom Judas was, who had the same power with the rest, and to the seventy disciples (Luk 9:1; 10:1, 17, 19) but even to some who did not follow him and his disciples, Mark 9:38 and some did this in the name of Jesus, who do not appear to have any true faith in him, and knowledge of him; as the vagabond Jews, exorcists, and the seven sons of Sceva, Acts 19:13. An awful consideration it is, that men should be able to cast out devils, and at last be cast to the devil.

"And in thy name done many wonderful works? that is, many miracles; not one, or a few only, but many; such as speaking with tongues, removing mountains, treading on serpents and scorpions, and drinking any deadly thing without hurt, and healing all manner of diseases and sicknesses. Judas, for one, was capable of pleading all these things; he had the gift of preaching, and a call from Christ to it, and yet a castaway; he had the power of casting out devils, and yet could not prevent the devil from entering into him; he could perform miracles, do wonders in Christ's name, and yet, at last, was the betrayer of him. These pleas and arguments will be of no use to him, nor of any avail to any at the great day. It may be observed, that these men lay the whole stress of their salvation upon what they have done in Christ's name; and not on Christ himself, in whom there is salvation, and in no other: they say not a syllable of what Christ has done and suffered, but only of what they have done. Indeed, the things they instance in, are the greatest done among men; the gifts they had were the most excellent, excepting the grace of God; the works they did were of an extraordinary nature; whence it follows, that there can be no salvation, nor is it to be expected from men's works: for if preaching the word, which is attended with so much study, care, and labour, will not be a prevailing argument to admit men into the kingdom of heaven; how can it be thought that ever reading, or hearing, or any other external performance of religion, should bring persons thither?"

http://www.christianity.com/bible/comments/matthew/gill/matthew7.htm

 

[Drew]

It's clear to me that one who has been born again will remain in the faith, because his stand in it is not a false profession, but instead manifests God's glory in truth.

Again, I really do think you are engaged in a kind of circular reasoning here. I see this often and I hope we can disagree about this in an agreeable way. The problem, as I see it, is that people - not only you, of course - come to a text already committed to a particular position on a matter of doctrine, and then have to generate some very implausible explanation to "force" that text to work with the particular item of doctrine.

Consider this text from Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

Just recently the following explanations have been offered as to why this text does not mean what it plainly states - which is that eternal life is granted on the basis of how we have lived:

1. When Paul writes "eternal life", he really means "rewards in heaven":
2. Paul is speaking hypothetically - it's impossible for anyone to be awarded eternal life in this way.

Do you not see the problem? Both these explanations are, frankly, extremely contrived. People often simply refuse to answer the following question - and that in itself is telling indeed - but I will offer you the chance: What do you think Paul intends us to take away from these particular words from Romans 2:6-7?

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

Getting back to the matter at hand, I believe the Hebrews text is clear and I will not repeat what I see as the effective arguments from seabass, not least what it means to "partake" of something. I will simply point out that your explanation above is that a believer could not fall away because "his stand manifests God's glory in truth". I politely suggest this is a very vague and cryptic statement. I suggest your case would be more convincing if you directly addressed the detailed arguments that seabass has presented.

I will be interested to read your views on the Romans 2 text I provided.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

(Post deleted. ToS 2.4 rude comments, and A&T Guidelines: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)

 

[smaller]

I believe the issue here is what the author stated concerning, "from what these Hebrews might apostatize." To me Hebrews 6:4-6 is an example of showing how much one can know, and even be used by the Spirit of God in gifts (partaker of the Spirit in the sign ministry) which concern the power of God (i.e. Mat 7) and yet still not accept truth but rather eventually fall from an obviously insincere pursuit of it, due to never having been born again. It's clear to me that one who has been born again will remain in the faith, because his stand in it is not a false profession, but instead manifests God's glory in truth.

Please excuse my posting of Gill's comment below (Matt 7:22) if it seems too lengthy in taking up space, but I find it worthy of presenting and hope it's acceptable to do so:

"Have we not prophesied in thy name? This may be understood either of foretelling things to come; which gift wicked men may have, who have never had any experience of the grace of God, as Balaam, and Caiaphas, and others; or rather of preaching the word, which is sometimes called prophesying, Romans 12:6 and which may be done in the name of Christ, pretending mission and authority from him, and to be preachers of him, and yet be no better than "sounding brass," or "a tinkling cymbal"; yea, nothing at all as to true grace, or spiritual experience.

I might observe that with both Balaam and Caiaphas, that the Spirit of Truth did speak through both of these men, wicked as they were, in the captivity of their flesh. Balaam, for example wanted to curse the people of Israel, but the Spirit of God did NOT allow that to happen. And, with Caiaphas, the prophesy was also, spot on, that man, (that being Jesus) would in fact, die for that nation.

John 11:
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

They, thinking this was expedient, and of The Spirit, which it WAS, then went about to perform God's Will. And that is what happened. Even in their evil, God did have that Divine Intention, not only spoken through Caiaphas, but adversely performed through "all" the players in His Passion exercise.

"And in thy name have cast out devils? Diabolical possessions were very frequent in the times of Christ; no doubt but they were suffered, that Jesus might have an opportunity of showing his power over Satan, by dispossessing him from the bodies, as well as the souls of men; and of giving proof of his deity, divine sonship and Messiahship: and this power of casting out devils was given to others, not only to the twelve apostles, among whom Judas was, who had the same power with the rest, and to the seventy disciples (Luk 9:1; 10:1, 17, 19) but even to some who did not follow him and his disciples, Mark 9:38 and some did this in the name of Jesus, who do not appear to have any true faith in him, and knowledge of him; as the vagabond Jews, exorcists, and the seven sons of Sceva, Acts 19:13. An awful consideration it is, that men should be able to cast out devils, and at last be cast to the devil.

We all, by our fleshly nature, seek to avoid hearing those adverse Words of God in Christ, "depart from me ye workers of iniquity." Yet we all seem to fail, quite miserably, in seeing that we all have iniquity, being sinners. Where some will find fear and death in those Words, I hear LIFE.

And could give many examples of "why" every believer will hear those Words, and they will LIVE. It's all in the perspective, and unto whom we might perceive those seemingly adverse Words, directed to. The easiest example on this matter would be to observe the factual state of Paul, in the flesh in 2 Cor. 12:7. If read, one can very easily perceive that the messenger of Satan, in the flesh death of Paul, did in fact HEAR that spoken, by Jesus. And Paul lived, regardless.

 

[ezrider]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[netchaplain]

Again, I really do think you are engaged in a kind of circular reasoning here. I see this often and I hope we can disagree about this in an agreeable way. The problem, as I see it, is that people - not only you, of course - come to a text already committed to a particular position on a matter of doctrine, and then have to generate some very implausible explanation to "force" that text to work with the particular item of doctrine.

Consider this text from Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

First, I appreciate the proper mannerisms from all on this site, which I believe reflects the proper guidance of the Amin/Mod leaders of this site. There are a few other sites (on which I will continue to share regardless their disorder) that are not as concerned for everyone as we are here and i hope they too will learn that how we communicate with one another is as important as what we communicate.

Of course there will be a few who have yet to learn kindness and respect, but they too will desire this if they are His!

Remaining in the faith is one of the primary evidences of regeneration, which I wouldn't think to be "secular (worldly) reasoning." (1Jhn 2:19). Surly it is that one not saved will not continue to pretend to be in the faith.

Best put: "God will render to evil men according to the true desert of their evil deeds; and of His own free grace will render to good men, whom He has made so by His grace, what is suitable and agreeable to those good works, which, by the assistance of His grace, they have been enabled to perform." Gill

 

[ezrider]

(Post deleted, ToS 2.4, too many personal insults to even try to clean it up. Obadiah.)

 

[Drew]

Best put: "God will render to evil men according to the true desert of their evil deeds; and of His own free grace will render to good men, whom He has made so by His grace, what is suitable and agreeable to those good works, which, by the assistance of His grace, they have been enabled to perform." Gill

First, thanks for addressing my question. We may be reaching common ground, but I note that this quote is not explicit that it is eternal life, and not simply "extra rewards" that are dispensed at this judgment. I think it cannot be doubted that in the following, Paul is saying that "those who do good get, yes, eternal life":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

The language here is pretty clear (assuming correct translation): eternal life is granted according to some measure of the quality of the life led - the "good works", as it were.

I am happy to agree that good works "attest to" a faith that saves in the specific sense that it empowers us to the good works. But, the texts is clear: it is the good works that will be examined on the day of judgment. Do you agree? Or are you saying that people get "extra rewards" based on their good deeds but that eternal life is granted according to some other criteria. If so, I still think Romans 2:6-7 poses a big problem for that view.

 

[FreeGrace]

"Tasting" does not confirm acceptance but only trying or sampling.

So, back in Heb 2:9, then, Jesus was only "trying" or "sampling" when He "tasted death for all"? The same word for "taste" in 2:9 is found in 6:4. I recall John MacArthur once quipped that those in ch 6 tasted as in "licking an ice cream cone". Apparently he was as ignorant of the fact that the same word was used in 2:9 as in 6:4 as FW Grant was.

Apostatizing means to deny, renounce or leave something. It does not confirm that one who apostasies from something means they left something they have before accepted, but rather something in which they were interested but have never accepted.

This is untrue. It basically means to "no longer believe what was once believed". What source indicates that it means to leave something that one was merely "interested in but never accepted"? Please cite.

 

[netchaplain]

First, thanks for addressing my question. We may be reaching common ground, but I note that this quote is not explicit that it is eternal life, and not simply "extra rewards" that are dispensed at this judgment. I think it cannot be doubted that in the following, Paul is saying that "those who do good get, yes, eternal life":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

The language here is pretty clear (assuming correct translation): eternal life is granted according to some measure of the quality of the life led - the "good works", as it were.

I am happy to agree that good works "attest to" a faith that saves in the specific sense that it empowers us to the good works. But, the texts is clear: it is the good works that will be examined on the day of judgment. Do you agree? Or are you saying that people get "extra rewards" based on their good deeds but that eternal life is granted according to some other criteria. If so, I still think Romans 2:6-7 poses a big problem for that view.

Romans 2:1-10 discloses the reward of eternal life to the believer (vs 7, 10), and eternal judgement to the unbeliever (2:1-5, 8, 9). We know the works of the believer effect in no way eternal life, but rather manifests eternal life has been received, which can only be effected by faith in Christ's redemptive work.