Apostate Verses Believer

[JLB]

I don't accept any position that condemns believers. That is certain. Not even as a potential.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

What do you call a believer, who turns away and no longer believes?

Believers are people who believe.

Those who once believed, then they no longer believe, are no longer believers.

They are unbelieving.

The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake of fire. Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = saved
Believe for a while = saved for a while.

This theory has been thoroughly put to rest because of Paul's clear words; God's gifts are justification (Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23). And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

This isn't debatable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
What do you call a believer, who turns away and no longer believes?
Believers are people who believe.
Those who once believed, then they no longer believe, are no longer believers.
They are unbelieving.
The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake of fire. Revelation 21:8JLB

Treating salvation as though the believing must continue, as in the present tense is fallacious, since there are verses that use the aorist tense, which has no consideration at all for time.

Acts 16:31 Believe (aorist: in a point in time) and you will be saved (future to the action of believing).

The aorist tense refutes the theory that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. There is NO WHERE in Scripture that teaches that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. I'm tired of asking for Scriptural references because none have been given. Because none exist.

 

[JLB]

I honestly believe it's part of the end-times deceit that is sweeping the church and making her the apostate church of the end-times.

 

[JLB]

This theory has been thoroughly put to rest because of Paul's clear words; God's gifts are justification (Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23). And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

This isn't debatable.

That would be hilarious, if it wasn't so sad.

All you can say in the face of the plain words of our Savior is: that has been put to rest???

You haven't put anything to rest.
You have only twisted what the plain straightforward truth of the scriptures teach.

What do you call a person who believes, then after awhile because of persecution, no longer believes?

A believer is defined as someone who believes, not some who doesn't believe, which is unbelief.

Treating salvation as though the believing must continue, as in the present tense is fallacious,

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

You teach directly against what the scriptures say.

Faith is the very thing that generates the hope we have for salvation.

Faith is the substance of the thing hoped for.

If we turn away from faith in Jesus Christ, then we no longer have the hope that faith affords.

It's just that simple.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Treating salvation as though the believing must continue, as in the present tense is fallacious, since there are verses that use the aorist tense, which has no consideration at all for time.

Acts 16:31 Believe (aorist: in a point in time) and you will be saved (future to the action of believing).

The aorist tense refutes the theory that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. There is NO WHERE in Scripture that teaches that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. I'm tired of asking for Scriptural references because none have been given. Because none exist.

You discard what the plain words of scripture say, then you want to talk about what Greeks words mean??

 

[FreeGrace]

That would be hilarious, if it wasn't so sad.

All you can say in the face of the plain words of our Savior is: that has been put to rest???

You haven't put anything to rest.

Regardless of anyone's opinion, the Bible is very clear. Paul specifically defined what he meant by "gifts of God" before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

No one has shown, proven, or otherwise given any evidence that Paul specifically excluded eternal life and justification from what he wrote in Rom 11:29 about God's gifts being irrevocable.

You have only twisted what the plain straightforward truth of the scriptures teach.

lol

What do you call a person who believes, then after awhile because of persecution, no longer believes?

An apostate. Saved, because God's gifts of justification and eternal life are IRREVOCABLE. Which no one has been able to disprove or refute. A disagreement means nothing.

You teach directly against what the scriptures say.

It is the view of the insecurity crowd who does that.

Faith is the very thing that generates the hope we have for salvation.

And the Bible tells us that God's gifts, specifically defined as justification and eternal life, are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

You discard what the plain words of scripture say, then you want to talk about what Greeks words mean??

One doesn't really need to bow down before me. lol

But the very clear words of Scripture are that both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are gifts of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Those are very plain verses.

Until someone can disprove that Paul included those gifts when he penned 11:29, there is no reason whatsoever to believe what the insecurity crowd claims.

 

[smaller]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

What do you call a believer, who turns away and no longer believes?

I adhere to the "cadence progression" of the seed parables, particularly in Mark 4, where the conveyances are in fact a "progression." This progression is linked by the terms: "and these are they." This shows Spiritual Growth of the individual, and is not mean to classify believers in stages, i.e. "I am good ground" and "you are not." That is ill advised sight.

This same progression of the "growing" of the seed, exists in all the seed parables, and is assuredly not meant to condemn a single believer, for any reason.

Mark 4:
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

[And, in the final stage of growth:]

20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

What you are reading there, is the Growth of His Seed, planted in the darkness of the earth, which is our body in it's present subjections.

And it is this wisdom that the writer of Hebrews 6 draws on, directly. Without and apart from any intent to condemn any believer, but to condemn the adversary, the tempter, who also is in the GROUND of our flesh.

Divide and perceive. Gods Word is Light. And His Burden is likewise, Light. It is His Light that springs the seed, His Own Seed, from the ground of adversity, which is our body in which we have the adversity of the tempter, in our flesh.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No one has shown, proven, or otherwise given any evidence that Paul specifically excluded eternal life and justification from what he wrote in Rom 11:29 about God's gifts being irrevocable.

We did (i.e. Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB) but you chose to turn a blind eye to it and then antagonize us with this ridiculous claim that we didn't. You're nothing but an annoying troll now.

 

[FreeGrace]

We did (i.e. Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB) but you chose to turn a blind eye to it and then antagonize us with this ridiculous claim that we didn't. You're nothing but an annoying troll now.

I explained what Heb 10:26-31 means, in which your camp has turned a blind eye to. And your opinion is silly because Heb 10:26-31 isn't even in the context of Rom 11:29. What Paul wrote IN Romans is the context for 11:29.

No one from your camp has shown that Paul IN ROMANS excluded either justification nor eternal life from 11:29, so any claim that he had is a foolish claim.

We don't get to decide what Paul meant by "God's gifts" in 11:29 because Paul already TOLD US WHAT HE MEANT earlier in Romans; specifically justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life in 6:23. Those are the gifts of God that Paul was referring to in 11:29. Nothing else. Without a doubt.

Which refutes the notion that salvation can be lost. It can't. Paul was very clear about that.

To reject OSAS is to reject clear Scripture. Without a doubt.

Eternal life and justification are gifts of God.

God's gifts (justification and eternal life) are irrevocable.

Simple as that.

No one has yet refuted that (disagreement is NOT refutation), nor proved otherwise. And Heb 10:26-31 isn't even in context with Romans.

 

[FreeGrace]

The idea that salvation can be lost if one ceases to continue to believe basically means that one is saved by their own continued action. iow, if they cease to believe, they lose salvation. That is erroneous because we are not saved by our own action of believing, but by God Himself because we have believed.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

It is God who saves, not our action of believing. He saves those who believe.

And because Paul used the aorist tense for "believe" in Acts 16:31 when answering the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved, we know that time frame for believing isn't an issue. The aorist tense is likened to a snapshot, rather than a video. A point in time, without regard to length of time.

So, in a point in time, when one believes, at that point in time, they ARE saved, they HAVE eternal life, and their gift of God is irrevocable.

The insecurity crowd rejects so much Scripture in order to hold to their doctrine.

Samuel visited Saul in a seance and told Saul that he would join Samuel the next day. In fact, Saul died the next day and we know the reason he died; for disobeying God, per 1 Chron 10:13,14 - 13So Saul died for his trespass (sin unto death - 1 Jn 5:16) which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He (God) killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

So even though Saul died the divine discipline of the sin unto death, he joined Samuel the day he died, and we all know where God's true prophet Samuel was in death: paradise, where all OT believers resided until Christ's resurrection.

 

[smaller]

The insecurity crowd rejects so much Scripture in order to hold to their doctrine.

Not really. They see that there are warnings and admonitions in the N.T. They just misdirect them to themselves, as believers, (or more commonly deflect and convey them to other believers.)

The eternal security crowd has the reverse problem, thinking those scriptures don't apply whatsoever.

There is middle ground to be had to take hold of judgments and the more dire matters of the Word.

Where we see Jesus in our midst, that is, within us, He divides Gods children from their enemy in the flesh.

That is how Jesus operates.

Trying to drag the tempter in the flesh into salvation will never compute.

Trying to toss believers into the measures of the Word that is against the adversary doesn't work either.

Both sides of this engagement need only observe their own evil thoughts, to perceive the enemy, and the source of our present defiling in the flesh, and direct all judgments, dire, that direction.

This however is a huge spiritual problem, because it requires honesty before our Maker, and a searching from Him, of why evil thoughts transpire. We all dismiss them as being of the tempter, and only blame ourselves. That is not the case, nor was it ever.

This working in the O.T. was external, but, post belief, this activity is turned, within:

Exodus 3:20
And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

Psalm 110:2
The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Isaiah 25:11
And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.

Any believer who seeks only to hear the smooth Words, just isn't listening.

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Jesus Himself, was crucified between a believer and a resistor:

John 19:18
Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

The overcoming that Jesus speaks of isn't "us" overcoming some other person, but of us, prevailing against the enemy of our soul, that we carry in our own flesh.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 12:
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We overcome WHOM???

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I swear, if any believer is honest before God in Christ, and acknowledges that their evil thoughts are of Satan, the tempter,

they'll NEVER adversely judge another believer as long as they live in the flesh.

 

[JLB]

The idea that salvation can be lost if one ceases to continue to believe basically means that one is saved by their own continued action. iow, if they cease to believe, they lose salvation. That is erroneous because we are not saved by our own action of believing, but by God Himself because we have believed.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

It is God who saves, not our action of believing. He saves those who believe.

Those who endure to the end will be saved... Matthew 24:13

...for the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

Now we are saved by faith... which means we have the hope of salvation...

faith is the substance of things hoped for.


JLB

 

[JLB]

One doesn't really need to bow down before me. lol

But the very clear words of Scripture are that both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are gifts of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Those are very plain verses.

Until someone can disprove that Paul included those gifts when he penned 11:29, there is no reason whatsoever to believe what the insecurity crowd claims.

This has been disproved many times.

He it is again for you...

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Does this verse contain the word eternal? No.

Does this verse contain the word life? No.

Does this verse contain the word salvation? No.


Eternal life is not found in Romans 11:29

Salvation is not found in Romans 11:29


You have built your doctrine on presumption.


Can a person believe in Jesus Christ and be saved, then later take the mark of the beast and still be saved?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The idea that salvation can be lost if one ceases to continue to believe basically means that one is saved by their own continued action.

Yes, you got it, now.

The same way a person is saved through faith by believing, will also continue to be saved through faith by continuing to believe.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The insecurity crowd rejects so much Scripture in order to hold to their doctrine."

Not really.

Yes, really.

They see that there are warnings and admonitions in the N.T. They just misdirect them to themselves, as believers, (or more commonly deflect and convey them to other believers.)

The warnings and admonitions are NOT about loss of salvation, and they DO reject the promises that speak to eternal security, the primary one being that eternal life (Rom 6:23) and justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) are gifts of God and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). All within the context of a single letter to the Romans.

The eternal security crowd has the reverse problem, thinking those scriptures don't apply whatsoever.

Blatantly untrue. What, specifically is your view of the warning passages?

There is middle ground to be had to take hold of judgments and the more dire matters of the Word.

Please elaborate on this 'middle ground'.

Where we see Jesus in our midst, that is, within us, He divides Gods children from their enemy in the flesh.
That is how Jesus operates.

I have no idea what this means.

Trying to drag the tempter in the flesh into salvation will never compute.

This doesn't make any sense to me at all. Who does that?

Trying to toss believers into the measures of the Word that is against the adversary doesn't work either.

I don't know what this means.

Both sides of this engagement need only observe their own evil thoughts, to perceive the enemy, and the source of our present defiling in the flesh, and direct all judgments, dire, that direction.

How does any of this relate to the issue of eternal security vs loss of salvation?

This however is a huge spiritual problem, because it requires honesty before our Maker, and a searching from Him, of why evil thoughts transpire. We all dismiss them as being of the tempter, and only blame ourselves. That is not the case, nor was it ever.

I know your view seems to be to blame the devil for your sins. But that is irrelevant to the issue of OSAS vs loss of salvation.

I swear, if any believer is honest before God in Christ, and acknowledges that their evil thoughts are of Satan, the tempter,
they'll NEVER adversely judge another believer as long as they live in the flesh.

This isn't about judging other believers, but the issue of eternal security vs insecurity.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who endure to the end will be saved... Matthew 24:13
...for the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9
Now we are saved by faith... which means we have the hope of salvation...
faith is the substance of things hoped for.JLB

Paul mentioned 3 kinds of gifts that come from God in Romans:
1. spiritual gifts - 1:11
2. justification - 3:24, 5:15,16,17,
3. eternal life - 6:23

Then, after defining specifically what he meant by God's gifts, he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29.

No one from your side has proven that Paul wasn't referring to what he had already defined as gifts of God when he penned 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The idea that salvation can be lost if one ceases to continue to believe basically means that one is saved by their own continued action."

Yes, you got it, now.

And there lies the problem with your view. We are NOT saved by our own action of believing. I cited 1 Cor 1:21 with reference to WHO saves WHOM, and it wasn't addressed. Does your side have no opinion of that verse which refutes your view that we are saved by our own action?

The same way a person is saved through faith by believing, will also continue to be saved through faith by continuing to believe.JLB

So, please prove that with Scripture. So far, all there is regarding your view is a huge assumption.

 

[JLB]

Paul mentioned 3 kinds of gifts that come from God in Romans:
1. spiritual gifts - 1:11
2. justification - 3:24, 5:15,16,17,
3. eternal life - 6:23

Then, after defining specifically what he meant by God's gifts, he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29.

No one from your side has proven that Paul wasn't referring to what he had already defined as gifts of God when he penned 11:29.

Can a person believe in Jesus Christ and be saved, then later take the mark of the beast and still be saved?

Please answer this question.


JLB