Apostles?

[Imagican]

God is All Powerful. Man would have to be almost perfect in order for the Spirit of God to produce miracles through one. Them days are long gone.

Your statement is contrary to 1 John 2:1 and James 5:16. In fact, it's contrary to the Bible as a whole. We are talking about a God who spoke His word through a burning bush and a donkey. Where do you get the idea that we have to earn the right to be used by God? Where is the scripture that tells us that God will not use us to perform miracles until we attain a certain level of perfection? That takes us back to keeping the law.

How is it that you accept the miracles of the past but emphatically deny the miracles of today? Isn't God the same now as He was then?

Peter, unable to continue to walk on water...

So the fact that he walked on water means nothing. You only look at Peter being distracted by fear, not the part where he was focused on Jesus?

the apostles unable to cast out demons...

Didn't Jesus explain that we must be prepared ahead of time through constant fasting and prayer? We learn from these failing of the disciples so that we can walk in the promise of doing mightier works.

Ever hear of Smith Wigglesworth?

And don't ever forget guys, (and gals), Satan is capable of lying wonders and miracles also.

Satan can only copy what he sees God do. Unless you can show me that Satan has the power to create. Yes, he is the father of lies, but that's why Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit. We have the ability to discern what is of God and what is not.

Boy Kwag, I don't know where to start with this one. I guess the beginning:

So, you believe that one who in not obedient and that doesn't fulfill as much of God's will as the first apostles did can be apostles today? In other words you think that those that had actually walked with Christ and were unable to be influenced by the world in which WE live were no different than us? It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the law but God's will. The law was made for a covenant between God and His chosen people. I am a Gentile and therefore the law was not created for me. So whether I fulfill it or not will not increase or decrease my relationship with God through Christ. But obeying God's will is certainly capable of increasing the closeness of our relationship.

God is certainly the same only we have changed. We have arrived at exactly the place that God told us we would. He warned that one day man would worship the creation more than the Creator. God is still capable of producing ANYTHING including miracles. BUT, the miracles from the past were for a specific purpose. That purpose has been fulfilled and we still have those miracles. Read about them for yourself. Do you believe that they took place? But now we have FAITH, Hope and Charity........... If God still had prophets and apostles producing miracles how could faith prevail and of what significance would it be?

Peter walking on water was an example of a lack of faith regardless of what caused it. Just as casting out the difficult demon. The apostles tried to cast the demon out in the name of Christ and when this didn't work they lost their faith. If they had continued in their faith the Spirit of God would have given them the answer that Christ offered: fasting and prayer.

Kwag, Kwag, Kwag. So, you think that we, as Christians, continue to have the power to discern the difference between Satan and God? Satan IS God of this world in which we live. Why do you think that living IN THE WORLD is a bad thing? The Bible itself states that in the end of this era: "There will be a falling away............" What do you think this means? If we, as Christians, were truly capable of discerning the difference in the works of God and Satan, then this would be impossible, this falling away. The falling away will be a falling away from the truth and following lies instead. And who did you say the father of lies is?

 

[Imagican]

Man would have to be almost perfect in order for the Spirit of God to produce miracles through one. Them days are long gone.

And yet you still haven't addressed the points.

Free,

Ok, let me do it again. ALL the apostles had SEEN Christ Himself. ALL the apostles were Jews. ALL the apostles were chosen by God. ALL but Paul were from Galilee. But, Paul was certainly an exception or exceptional compared with any and every Christian that has ever lived. But he too was a Jew who had SEEN Christ. The apostles job was to START the Church. Has it been started? Then what would be the need. Our testemony is sufficient in this time and we have the Bible now.

So of what purpose would an apostle serve today? And I have to ask are these questions: Would you have the faith to drink a deadly poison? Handle deadly serpents? Can you heal the sick or raise the dead? Can you speak in tongues that others from different cultures and languages can understand? So far, all I have listened to are those that insist that a Christian can't be possessed by demons, but why would you cast them out of unbelievers? Can you? And I don't mean this to be insulting or demeaning. I readdress these questions and ask if you even know anyone that can live up to these questions? Even the apostles failed at times.

You never addressed my point about WHO Christ was talking to when He stated that: "And these signs shall follow them that believe." Was He speaking to you and I through the written word of the Bible? Or was He speaking to a select group of individuals called, "apostles"?

 

[Imagican]

Free,

I apoligize. I didn't read your post before my reply.

 

[Imagican]

Free,

But I still have to disagree with faith of the apostles having nothing to do with Christ's statement concerning them that believe. I don't think that a single sign could possibly be performed by those that 'do not believe'. Just as they were incapable of casting out the demon for thier lack of faith, Peter denied Christ three times after swearing that he would die for Him.

I believe that He addressed eleven people just as the Bible states. He did not tell any other than the eleven at that time to preach the gospel throughout the world. If you assume that He was addressing any other then it is simply that: assumption. He spoke to eleven and told them to: GO...................that was their commission, their job, their purpose.

And none of this even takes into consideration that most scholars don't even accept verse 9 through 20 of Mark as even being written by Mark himself but added later by someone else. The writtings of these verses is completely inconsistent with the previous verses and is written as if it were a seperate writting from a different time. The previous verse ends with Mary fleeing to tell the others of Christ's reserection. Then in the next verse it starts by explaining who Mary is as if she wasn't even mentioned in the verse before. Not to mention that Mark wasn't even an apostle and all his information was second hand, written perhaps as much as 50 years after the death of Christ. And, of the two apostles that did write gospels, neither mention anything that Mark says that Christ stated except to spread the gospel. Many believe that much of this chapter was created by someone other than Mark to complete his gospel and they used other instances such as the story of Paul being bitten by a serpent and not dying as the basis for which these things were written. That perhaps Christ didn't even say these things, but could have, so that is how it is written. Funny how two actual attendants at this last, last supper didn't mention that Christ made these statements. But someone who wasn't even there wrote of the event as much as fifty years later and added what none of the others happened to hear.

 

[Green^Horn]

Imagican,

i would like to point something out to you, you mentioned the apostles not having faith to cast out the "lunatic" devil, did you not realize that the apostles were not even filled with the holy ghost at this time? here are some verses to prove it:

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

the apostles were not filled with the holy ghost untill the day of penticost, Act 2:1-4

and at the time when peter was walking on the water and began to sink, he was not even converted at that time, and here is the proof:

Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

he was not converted untill the day of penticost when he was filled with the holy ghost, Act 2:1-4

also you say that Jesus was only talking to the apostles when he said "these signs shall follow them that believe", this is true, he was talking to the apostles, but he was talking to them about those who would believe, and if the apostles are the only ones who would believe, and the only ones the signs would follow, then by the same token they were the only ones to be saved too, because he also said in that same passage that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. do you not see your error in this? you are taking this passage way out of context by saying the signs were just for the apostles, and that the apostles were the only ones who believed,

i have seen the signs follow the believers many times throughout my life, i've seen my own mother come up from her death bed more then once after we had prayed and someone moved on by the holy ghost laid their hands on her, i've seen a man already turned black from his heart failing fully recover after we prayed and one moved upon by the holy ghost laid hands on him, my mother was bitten by a poisonious snake and she felt no harm, she didn't even stop what she was doing, i myself was very sick, and a three year old girl put her hand on me and said "help him lord" and i recovered almost imediately, i've seen people handle serpents, i've even handled them myself(tho i don't make a practise of it), i've seen devils cast out, i my self had my hands on the boy when we, in the name of Jesus, commanded it to come out of him, i could go on and on, but i think that's enough to get the point across.

you cannot convince me that these signs were just for the apostles because i know better, i have both seen them with my own eyes, and worked them with my own hands, by the power of the holy ghost that is in me, .

tho i know you probably will not believe me, but it's the truth none the less.

 

[kwag_myers]

So, you believe that one who in not obedient and that doesn't fulfill as much of God's will as the first apostles did can be apostles today? In other words you think that those that had actually walked with Christ and were unable to be influenced by the world in which WE live were no different than us?

They all started out just like us. They were fisherman, tax collectors, etc. As far as them being immune to the influences of the world, consider Galatians 2:14 where Paul corrects Peter for being a hypocrite. My point here is that it is not up to us, not our ability but through God's gift of His Holy Spirit that we minister as the early church apostles did.

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the law but God's will. The law was made for a covenant between God and His chosen people. I am a Gentile and therefore the law was not created for me. So whether I fulfill it or not will not increase or decrease my relationship with God through Christ. But obeying God's will is certainly capable of increasing the closeness of our relationship.

Romans 10:12; Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11 all say that God no longer distinguishes Jew from Gentile. However, I agree with you that to obey is better that sacrifice (1 Samuel 15:22).

God is certainly the same only we have changed. We have arrived at exactly the place that God told us we would. He warned that one day man would worship the creation more than the Creator. God is still capable of producing ANYTHING including miracles. BUT, the miracles from the past were for a specific purpose. That purpose has been fulfilled and we still have those miracles. Read about them for yourself. Do you believe that they took place? But now we have FAITH, Hope and Charity........... If God still had prophets and apostles producing miracles how could faith prevail and of what significance would it be?

So my friend who was told by her doctors that she had six months to live, what hope does she have? She put her faith in God's promise of a long life and her six months was up nearly two years ago. Let me tell you, all of our faith has been tested to the limit in her situation. We've learned not to look at circumstances and what man says, and look to what God says. My friend has witnessed and ministered to many people during this trial. I'd say that was very significant.

Peter walking on water was an example of a lack of faith regardless of what caused it. Just as casting out the difficult demon. The apostles tried to cast the demon out in the name of Christ and when this didn't work they lost their faith. If they had continued in their faith the Spirit of God would have given them the answer that Christ offered: fasting and prayer.

I get the impression that you are of the opinion we need only to fast and pray when we are faced with a demon that won't be cast out. Let me tell you from my own experience, you better be ready ahead of time, or you'll end up like the Sons of Sceva (Acts 19).

Kwag, Kwag, Kwag. So, you think that we, as Christians, continue to have the power to discern the difference between Satan and God? Satan IS God of this world in which we live. Why do you think that living IN THE WORLD is a bad thing?

I don't think that living in this world is a bad thing and I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. But I believe that the only way we can overcome the god of this world is through the power of the Holy Spirit. Originally, God intended for man to rule this world, and through the Holy Spirit, we need to take it back.

The Bible itself states that in the end of this era: "There will be a falling away............" What do you think this means? If we, as Christians, were truly capable of discerning the difference in the works of God and Satan, then this would be impossible, this falling away. The falling away will be a falling away from the truth and following lies instead. And who did you say the father of lies is?

Correction, if we discern through the Holy Spirit this would be impossible. I heard a speaker make this statement recently and I think that it is very true: "If the Holy Spirit ceased to operate, 95% of church activity would continue. If the Holy Spirit had ceased to operate in the early church of Acts, 95% of the church activity would cease as well". The speaker went on to illustrate how the tribes of Reuben and Gad choosing not to follow God into the promise land (Numbers 32) is simular to the church choosing not to follow God completely. Just as Adam and Eve gave up their rule of this world for a bit of fruit, just as Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of soup, Christians have given up their authority and power through the Holy Spirit in exchange for a dead religion.

Your position offers us no hope. But there is hope, there is a better way. I think you need to read 2 Thessalonians 2 again. We have salvation through the Spirit (verse 13) so that we are not deceived. 1 John 2:20, "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." 1 Timothy 4 tells us how to avoid false teachings as well.

 

[kwag_myers]

Let me pose this question, would God restore His church to it's former glory of the book of Acts without restoring the ministry of the Apostle?

 

[Imagican]

Let me pose this question, would God restore His church to it's former glory of the book of Acts without restoring the ministry of the Apostle?

I don't know how to answer this question. To start with, I believe that the apostles were appointed for a specific purpose. Then, I don't believe that there has ever been much of a former Glory of the Church. I think that God's purpose was to offer the gift of the knowledge of salvation and that there would be very few who would accept it.

So, ever since the formation of the 'true' church, there has been a falling away from the 'truth' and God's will. The powers that were given to the apostles were not meant to be permanent, but for a time, in order to offer proof the same as Christ. This we have in the written Word. Otherwise faith would not be as important as it is.

 

[kwag_myers]

Well, if I can't convince you that the ministry of the Apostle is alive and growing, I hope, at least, that we all keep an open mind on the subject.

 

[Imagican]

Guys,

As you read each of the epistles of Paul you will note: Each and every time he opens his letters he states that, He, Paul, an apostles of Jesus Christ through God himself, to the saints................... And even in his letters he often makes reference to the distinction between apostle and saint. His indication is that an apostle must be chosen by Christ Himself. So, for apostleship to still exist, one would have to claim an actual appointment by Christ Himself.

 

[kwag_myers]

I agree. The thing to keep in mind (also) is that Paul received his commission (appointment, etc.) after Christ had ascended and the Holy Spirit had been poured out onto the Christians. Note that Ananias was told by God that Saul was "a chosen vessel" (Acts 9). Again in Acts 13:2-4 we see Paul and Barnabas being commissioned at the instruction of the Holy Spirit.

How is it any different today? If the Holy Spirit says someone is an Apostle, who are we to say otherwise? (see my signature)

 

[Imagican]

Kwag,

There's part of the answer: How could you or I possibly determine whether or not someone else was 'chosen by the Spirit'? We are warned against 'false apostles' many times. This is a prime indication that there would be many that would come and claim to be apostles yet their claim would not be the truth.

This is where I believe we have to use our ability to discern the 'truth'. The only way that I have found to determine apostleship is to note the distinctions of qualifications of that of the apostle. 1. All apostles had seen Christ. 2. All apostles were Jews. 3. All apostles save Paul, were Galileans. 4. All apostles but Paul were at the two last meals together with Christ. I know that Paul being the exception will allow those that so choose to use this as proof that ANYONE can qualify. I don't believe this however and do believe that Paul was not only an exception to apostleship, but was an exception in everything concerning his conversion and ministry.

I believe that Paul was not just one of the apostles, but Paul was THE ONE that Christ chose to offer the Word to the Gentiles. There was certainly something different about Paul than any other, hence the New Testament of which well over half of it is written by Paul.

I also believe that the apostles were chosen to START the Church. Once their job was completed, there was no longer a need for this part of the body. This would also coincide with the lack of gifts that we experience today as compared to the time of the apostles. I have yet to even hear of anyone claiming to bring the dead back to life or restoring legs, feet, or hands etc........... I know we have Benny Hindies slapping people in the forehead and waving his arm to knock them down, but I don't even believe you would catch him claiming to bring the dead back or growing new limbs. Why do we not see the evidence of the SAME miracles performed by Christ and His apostles?

 

[kwag_myers]

Kwag,
There's part of the answer: How could you or I possibly determine whether or not someone else was 'chosen by the Spirit'? We are warned against 'false apostles' many times. This is a prime indication that there would be many that would come and claim to be apostles yet their claim would not be the truth.

You or I cannot determine this. It is only by the gift of discernment through the Holy Spirit and the knowledge of God's Word (together) that we will know truth from deception. False apostles and prophets will seek to turn us away from all that God has given us.

Here's an example: The big thing these days, especially in the Baptist church, is Theophostic Counseling. People are being deceived by this theology because they do not understand the difference between spirit and soul. Theophostic Counseling deals with the soul, "Oh, you poor baby. You've been hurt, etc." True healing comes from the Spirit of God. Show me where the Bible tells us to meditate on our pain. Look what happened to Peter when he focused on circumstances and took his eyes off of Jesus in Matthew 14:30.

Another important thing to consider is, who commissioned this person as an apostle? If we look in scripture, we see that all the apostles where commissioned, either by Jesus (I think this is what Jesus was doing in John 20:22 when He breathed on them. But that's just my speculation), or (in the case of Paul and Barnabas) by the prophets and teachers of the church in Antioch (Acts 13:2-3). The few apostles that I've met have all been told by several witnesses that God was calling them to the ministry of apostle. Again, there is a practice that is growing in the church where pastors just decide for themselves that they are apostles. These are the ones that we need to be wary of. It's better to be placed in the seat of honour than to be removed from it (Matthew 23:11-12).

This is where I believe we have to use our ability to discern the 'truth'. The only way that I have found to determine apostleship is to note the distinctions of qualifications of that of the apostle. 1. All apostles had seen Christ. 2. All apostles were Jews. 3. All apostles save Paul, were Galileans. 4. All apostles but Paul were at the two last meals together with Christ.

This is all physical evidence. We are to walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh. Or is there a place in scripture that states an apostle must meet all of these criteria?

1. Do you believe that it is impossible to see Christ today?
2. There is no Jew or Greek for those in Christ (Romans 10:12; Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11).
3. Same as #2.
4. Are we not called to remember Christ in the breaking of bread (Luke 22:19)?

I also believe that the apostles were chosen to START the Church. Once their job was completed, there was no longer a need for this part of the body. This would also coincide with the lack of gifts that we experience today as compared to the time of the apostles. I have yet to even hear of anyone claiming to bring the dead back to life or restoring legs, feet, or hands etc........... I know we have Benny Hindies slapping people in the forehead and waving his arm to knock them down, but I don't even believe you would catch him claiming to bring the dead back or growing new limbs. Why do we not see the evidence of the SAME miracles performed by Christ and His apostles?

Benny Hinn aside, these miracles are indeed taking place today. The apostle of my church has had many miracles occur when he prays for people. I've stated this before, only to be persecuted for it.

 

[Imagican]

Kwag,

As you have probably already been able to see, I am a complete sceptic concerning the spiritual state that man has created in himself. I believe that the Church has gone astray for the last time in this era. I don't believe that God is going to destroy a world full of spiritually righteous people. I also don't believe in the rapture as depicted in such nonsense as 'left behind' and as taught by many denominations. I do believe that there will those that are spared tribulation but I do not believe that there will be millions or even hundreds of thousands that will be allowed to miss this momentous event. I personally believe that suffering will be the way in which God cleanses the masses.

Now, I as you kwag, if there be those that claim to be apostles, how do we, mere followers by nature, determine their sincerity? Also kwag, Jesus had a reason to speak or appear to those of the past in order to show His power to those that he chose to start His Church. What purpose would it serve for Him to speak or appear to us now? For now abides FAITH and HOPE and CHARITY. If He were to prove Himself now days it would negate the need for faith.

And I ask this Kwag, many deny the power of Satan in this age. They act like they are oblivious to the fact that his influence is prevalent among us. Do you believe that Satan can offer feelings similar to those of the Holy Spirit? In other words, do you think that it is possible that there could be those that think they are filled with the Spirit of Christ yet they are truly filled with the spirit of Satan?

 

[kwag_myers]

Kwag,

As you have probably already been able to see, I am a complete sceptic concerning the spiritual state that man has created in himself. I believe that the Church has gone astray for the last time in this era. I don't believe that God is going to destroy a world full of spiritually righteous people. I also don't believe in the rapture as depicted in such nonsense as 'left behind' and as taught by many denominations.

Yeah, I'm with you there. I don't agree with the Left Behind Theology. But I'll save what I do believe for another thread.

I do believe that there will those that are spared tribulation but I do not believe that there will be millions or even hundreds of thousands that will be allowed to miss this momentous event. I personally believe that suffering will be the way in which God cleanses the masses.

Interesting statement. Did you know that Katrina means pure or cleansing?

"My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials" James 1:2 NKJV. You're right in that we will continue to have our sufferings. But don't discount the role of the Holy Spirit in this. "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." Romans 14:17.

Now, I as you kwag, if there be those that claim to be apostles, how do we, mere followers by nature, determine their sincerity? Also kwag, Jesus had a reason to speak or appear to those of the past in order to show His power to those that he chose to start His Church. What purpose would it serve for Him to speak or appear to us now? For now abides FAITH and HOPE and CHARITY. If He were to prove Himself now days it would negate the need for faith.

First, it builds the faith of those who already believe. Second, it proves or validates God's Word. The apostle of my church has led many muslims to the Lord once they see the miracles that take place before them. This has always been a sign of the apostle, that signs and wonders follow them.

And I ask this Kwag, many deny the power of Satan in this age. They act like they are oblivious to the fact that his influence is prevalent among us. Do you believe that Satan can offer feelings similar to those of the Holy Spirit? In other words, do you think that it is possible that there could be those that think they are filled with the Spirit of Christ yet they are truly filled with the spirit of Satan?

I agree, the best lie Satan ever came up with is that he doesn't exist. However, Satan is a copy-cat. He cannot create, he can only duplicate. So, what is it that he is duplicating? If the Holy Spirit wasn't moving in this way, why would Satan copy Him? Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I believe that you will see for yourself in the next few years. Please, just keep an open mind and judge for yourself when the time comes. Remember, the theologians of Jesus' day had a preconceived idea of the Messiah and Jesus didn't fit.