Are all people infected by sin?

[OzSpen]

Brothers and sisters in Christ,

I'm engaged in some discussion with LEGO in the comments section of my article published in a secular Australian e-journal, On Line Opinion: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19972&page=5.

This is on pages 4-5 of my article: Fake news! The Senator Fraser Anning saga
You don't need to know anything about the Australian Senator Fraser Anning to be able to join me in this discussion.

How about sharpening your skills at being the salt of the earth and the light of the world - along with some apologetics (1 Peter 3:15)? I need some evangelical Christian support.

You'll need to register your own pen name (non de plume).

Blessings in Christ,

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

According to John 8:34 (NLT): Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin".

Does that make all people sinners who have no other option but to sin?

Can that mean all are totally depraved if we understand total depravity as the spiritual condition of all fallen human beings?

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).​

​

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) [Got Questions?]​

Is it sound biblical teaching to state that all human beings are contaminated by sin and because of the inner being (heart) of a person, wicked things are said and done - sins are committed?

If this is true, how would you communicate it to a non-Christian who asks: 'What can be done about the crime and violence in my country?'

Oz

 

[ezra]

Is it sound biblical teaching to state that all human beings are contaminated by sin and because of the inner being (heart) of a person, wicked things are said and done - sins are committed?

yes sin affects everyone Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
does this mean we sin as in going back to our old nature doing some of the things we use to do? not necessarily the sin nature is there and we have to keep it in check. to the lost this is very hard to explain even to those savd sometimes its hard to understand... what we must understand even though we do sin we do fall short God is not sitting up there just waiting to take us out .that is the Big misconception of our salvation ..it is kept by the power of God (not a license or excuse to sin) hey look at this
1 John 2:1| My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[Razeontherock]

Oz, your definition of total depravity is a concept I can get on board with, despite finding reformed theology / Calvinism slanderous against God and therefore putrid.

I think the term is loaded with connotative meaning that many won't ever be able to get past, and thus does not serve your purposes well. Can you craft more modern
verbiage that conveys your thoughts?

 

[chessman]

to the lost this is very hard to explain

In my experience (with my former lost-self being a prime example) it takes a working of the Holy Spirit to explain and then convict a person that they ‘sin’. Even to get a lost person to admit ‘sin’ exists in the first place is a challenge.

It’s helpful though, I think, to come to some agreement(s) on a definition of ‘sin’. From an apologetics standpoint, of course, we must use a proper/Biblical definition of ‘sin’, without necessarily quoting Bible to them. Most don’t care what the Bible says. They must be convinced from within their own worldview.

For example, if a secular Government implements crimes and punishment against the use of unwarranted violence among its citizens is it then “sin” when someone commits that act??? Then a discussion can be had about that particular sin and what can be done to reduce or eliminate it.

 

[WIP]

In my experience (with my former lost-self being a prime example) it takes a working of the Holy Spirit to explain and then convict a person that they ‘sin’. Even to get a lost person to admit ‘sin’ exists in the first place is a challenge.

It’s helpful though, I think, to come to some agreement(s) on a definition of ‘sin’. From an apologetics standpoint, of course, we must use a proper/Biblical definition of ‘sin’, without necessarily quoting Bible to them. Most don’t care what the Bible says. They must be convinced from within their own worldview.

For example, if a secular Government implements crimes and punishment against the use of unwarranted violence among its citizens is it then “sin” when someone commits that act??? Then a discussion can be had about that particular sin and what can be done to reduce or eliminate it.

What is the Biblical definition of sin? My understanding is sin is in contrast to the perfection of God. Any time we disobey or resist God's will it is sin and this includes thought, word, and deed.

 

[chessman]

What is the Biblical definition of sin?

Behavior that misses the mark. A definition that both the lost and the saved can (or at least should) agree upon. But the it’s a matter of defining one or more “marks”. Which is why I suggested starting with acts of unwarranted violence against another as one example that most people could agree with. If, for example, you started with adultery (or other sexual sins as defined by the Bible) your not gonna find agreement with many of the lost.

 

[Razeontherock]

What is the Biblical definition of sin? My understanding is sin is in contrast to the perfection of God. Any time we disobey or resist God's will it is sin and this includes thought, word, and deed.

This is the type of thing that compels an unbeliever to assert that no such thing as sin exists. I find another possible route: refer to karma, natural consequences, or whatever similar comparison they can accept.

From there the "law of sin and death" can eventually be arrived at.

 

[Razeontherock]

Behavior that misses the mark. A definition that both the lost and the saved can (or at least should) agree upon. But the it’s a matter of defining one or more “marks”. Which is why I suggested starting with acts of unwarranted violence against another as one example that most people could agree with. If, for example, you started with adultery (or other sexual sins as defined by the Bible) your not gonna find agreement with many of the lost.

Another interesting idea is that we "mis the mark" not because we have bad aim, but because we aim at the wrong target and are very good at hitting it.

 

[jasonc]

Well one could argue that no matter how great laws are they seldom reduce crime .if I want to use drugs,I will .no,I'm not an anarchist but just look at laws against drug use.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I don't know that we are infected so much as it goes to the very core of our human nature.

 

[jasonc]

I don't know that we are infected so much as it goes to the very core of our human nature.

we will lie to ourselves and be critical/judgemental of others. the opposite within reason should be.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, your definition of total depravity is a concept I can get on board with, despite finding reformed theology / Calvinism slanderous against God and therefore putrid.

I think the term is loaded with connotative meaning that many won't ever be able to get past, and thus does not serve your purposes well. Can you craft more modern
verbiage that conveys your thoughts?

R,

It's not easy in 'modern verbiage' to give comprehensive analysis of the meaning of 'sin'. Let's try:

Based on the analysis in Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon, these are the NT meanings of hamartia (sin):

You can check this online at aJmartiva. I have no idea why the Greek hamartia has been transliterated as aJmartina on this Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich lexicon (BAG) website.

Hamartia (sin) cannot be defined simply as this lexicon demonstrates. It means:

1. Actions and results that depart from the way of justice towards God and human beings (Gen 50:17; 1 Jn 5:17, ‘Every wrong thing we do is sin. But there are sins that do not lead to death’, NIRV).

There are many sub-headings under this category that include, fill up the measure of sins; let go = forgive sins; confess your sins to each other, etc.

2. In John’s usage, it means ‘a condition or characteristic quality and is opposed to truth’ (Jn 9:41; 15:24; 1 Jn 1:8).

3. ‘Paul thinks of sin almost in personal terms … as a ruling power’ (Rom 5:12). Everything is subject to sin (Gal 3:22); people serve it (Rom 6:6); are sold into its service (Rom 7:14); and Jesus is a sin-offering for sin (2 Cor 5:21).

4. In Hebrews (as in OT), ‘sin appears as the power that deceives [human beings] and leads them to destruction, whose influence and activity can be ended only by sacrifices (Heb 2:17; 3:13; 9:23ff; 10:18).

5. Special sins: e.g. that lead to death (1 Jn 5:16); a great sin (Gen 20:9);

So, my simple definition of total depravity / total inability is:

All human beings do wrong things against God’s standards and harm other people. This condition affects every person and is opposed to truth. It is the ruling power in every aspect of all people: body, soul, spirit, mind, heart, and conscience.

To cure this condition, it required Jesus’ paying for the sins of all people by dying for them.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

To all,

Many don't understand that both Calvinists AND Arminians believe in Total Depravity of all human beings. This is what Arminius wrote:

VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: “Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.” That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man (Arminius 1977:525-526).

This quote is taken from my article: Do Arminians believe in election and total depravity?

Oz

Works consulted

Arminius, J. 1977. The writings of James Arminius, vol. 1, Public disputations of Arminius, Disputation 11 (On the free will of man and its powers), 523-531. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House. Available at: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 – Christian Classics Ethereal Library (Accessed 8 October 2018).

 

[OzSpen]

Well one could argue that no matter how great laws are they seldom reduce crime .if I want to use drugs,I will .no,I'm not an anarchist but just look at laws against drug use.

Jason,

Where would our countries be if there were no laws against illicit drug use, rape, domestic violence, sexual abuse, speeding, theft, murder and bearing false witness?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I don't know that we are infected so much as it goes to the very core of our human nature.

Does it penetrate every part of our being?

 

[Razeontherock]

Does it penetrate every part of our being?

Only if we let it. I strongly oppose the notion that this is inherently all-encompassing from birth.

The image of God in us is "marred," not destroyed utterly.

 

[Jim Parker]

Where would our countries be if there were no laws against illicit drug use, rape, domestic violence, sexual abuse, speeding, theft, murder and bearing false witness?

Here in the USA, we would all be Democrats. (Non-democrats would be prosecuted for those behaviors.)

 

[Razeontherock]

Here in the USA, we would all be Democrats. (Non-democrats would be prosecuted for those behaviors.)

Lol, here my first thought was, clearly we have no law against bearing false witness.

Let's not continue down the political rabbit hole though ...

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

Where would our countries be if there were no laws against illicit drug use, rape, domestic violence, sexual abuse, speeding, theft, murder and bearing false witness?

Oz

They dont stop crimes ,they punish them.look I live ,work in high crimes areas.if you really think that cops can effictively stop drug use you are mistaken ,cops know the dealers, they wait,watch and take months to bother ,they take one out ,another moves right in to tale their place.


I live across from a drug dealer ,he is in the hospital but only from a bad deal gone bad and won't be charged.he is the victim of an attempted murder ,so either they want the criminal over him or he plead a deal .idk.

Yet I know drugs are going around.I'm talking meth ,etc.a meth lab busted not even mile away nor a month after that.

Again I'm not suguesting no law,but only that sin is so powerful that the gov't simply can't prevent any crime.

The only way woukd be to place everyone in a police like state .we know that won't work.