Are all people infected by sin?

[Christ_empowered]

I think the sins nature is pretty intense. Romans 1:29-33. I see -so- much of who I was, before Jesus saved me, in those passages, that...wow. Not that I'm 110%, top of the line mega-Christian now, but...The Lord's brought me a long, long way...and it requires inner-transformation, which I think is what sets Jesus apart from The OT Law, the legal system, Mental Health Incorporated, etc.

 

[Christ_empowered]

oh, and Romans 8:6-8.

 

[Jim Parker]

Brothers and sisters in Christ,

I'm engaged in some discussion with LEGO in the comments section of my article published in a secular Australian e-journal, On Line Opinion: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19972&page=5.
How about sharpening your skills at being the salt of the earth and the light of the world - along with some apologetics (1 Peter 3:15)? I need some evangelical Christian support.
Oz

I don't want to register but I'll pass along some comments in response to LEGO's post of Saturday, 6 October 2018 9:12:43 AM

He stated a variety of standard misconceptions about Christianity.
1. "I don't have a problem with Christianity because it is part of western culture, and the moral code that Christianity imparted..."

Real Christianity is actually in opposition to western culture which is materialist. Happiness in western culture (and, to some extent, in all cultures) is based on the personal acquisition of possessions and power.

With regard to possessions, Christianity prescribes being willing to share whatever you have with those who are in need and even giving others what they need while you do without.

With regard to power, Christianity prescribes being meek, deferring to others. The greatest among men, from the Christian perspective, is the servant of all.

Mar 10:43 "...whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant."

2. "...the moral code that Christianity imparted is the reason why western societies are much more peaceful and honest than cultures based upon other religions."

I agree with that.

3. "But I reject the idea that all people are equal. Even God discriminates between those who worship him and those who do not. "

Two misunderstandings:
A. All people are not equal in intelligence, capabilities, wisdom, etc. That is true. But, all people have failed to live a perfectly moral life. (Biblically: All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Ro 3:23) The result is that all people are equally in need of a savior.
B. God does not discriminate. His grace and mercy are extended to all of mankind. Jesus died for everyone's sins and eternal life is available to everyone who will believe. (Belief includes intellectual understanding and actions which reflect that understandings.)

By "discriminate", LOGO probably means that God punishes those who do not worship Him by throwing them into hell. But that is not true. Those who worship God are those who choose to to find their identity in God and to imitate His ways of mercy and grace. Someone said that imitation is the highest form of praise. I think it applies to worship as well.

Those who worship God by imitating His mercy spend eternity with God. Those who reject God and do whatever pleases them spend eternity separated from God. Rather than God's punishment for failing to properly worship Him, it is man's choice to be in God's company or to reject God's company and remain "far from Him." (See Mat 25:31-46)

Hope that is useful

jim

 

[Jim Parker]

Lol, here my first thought was, clearly we have no law against bearing false witness.

Let's not continue down the political rabbit hole though ...

Not productive.

What's the difference between a Republican congressman/senator and a Democrat congressman/senator?
They both went to different schools together.

 

[OzSpen]

They dont stop crimes ,they punish them.look I live ,work in high crimes areas.if you really think that cops can effictively stop drug use you are mistaken ,cops know the dealers, they wait,watch and take months to bother ,they take one out ,another moves right in to tale their place.


I live across from a drug dealer ,he is in the hospital but only from a bad deal gone bad and won't be charged.he is the victim of an attempted murder ,so either they want the criminal over him or he plead a deal .idk.

Yet I know drugs are going around.I'm talking meth ,etc.a meth lab busted not even mile away nor a month after that.

Again I'm not suguesting no law,but only that sin is so powerful that the gov't simply can't prevent any crime.

The only way woukd be to place everyone in a police like state .we know that won't work.

Jason,

Since laws against drugs do not stop all drug users, laws against theft don't stop stealing, laws against murder don't stop murder, and laws against speeding on the highway don't stop speeding, would you be recommending the policies of The Libertarian Party?

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

Since laws against drugs do not stop all drug users, laws against theft don't stop stealing, laws against murder don't stop murder, and laws against speeding on the highway don't stop speeding, would you be recommending the policies of The Libertarian Party?

Oz

I never said that I said that unless you have a culture of respect and morality, laws won't work.

If you think that laws work ,then make it a crime to be a sinner.laws don't get you to heaven.

My point is ,I drive alot, here cops you think care if I do 55 in a 55,they dont.if the traffic is allowing 70 there they won't bother.I have cop friends ,they dont enforce speed laws unless a complaint is given or its a school zone, why?

Pay 200 for going 5 over .cops call that immoral yet if the mayors son speeds,let him go.

Only fhp is anal on speeding laws.

 

[OzSpen]

Only if we let it. I strongly oppose the notion that this is inherently all-encompassing from birth.

The image of God in us is "marred," not destroyed utterly.

R,

So don't you believe the Bible teac

I never said that I said that unless you have a culture of respect and morality, laws won't work.

If you think that laws work ,then make it a crime to be a sinner.laws don't get you to heaven.

My point is ,I drive alot, here cops you think care if I do 55 in a 55,they dont.if the traffic is allowing 70 there they won't bother.I have cop friends ,they dont enforce speed laws unless a complaint is given or its a school zone, why?

Pay 200 for going 5 over .cops call that immoral yet if the mayors son speeds,let him go.

Only fhp is anal on speeding laws.

Jason,

You didn't address my comment but took one example from it and gave your experience and opinion.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

R,

So don't you believe the Bible teac


Jason,

You didn't address my comment but took one example from it and gave your experience and opinion.

Oz

Cops ,say it.when they bust a drug dealer it won't dent the drug sales.

Cops in my house discussed that while over to discuss charging the dealer they already knew, plotted,plan and arrested.

Laws don't prevent ,they punish ..look i have been stalked, assaulted ,robbed .my point is when a society flaunts laws ,no matter the amount cops try laws won't work.

We live in a society where we work to escape punishment.in afghanistan we lost less men then cops,murders in large cities per month.was that from anarchy in Afghanistan? Nope ,but because men wanted to murder in america and less hajis wanted to kill soldiers.

 

[for_his_glory]

If we are not led by the Holy Spirit then we are being led by the flesh which will always sin.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

These are the sins that we need to rid ourselves of that we will not be ashamed before the Father.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

 

[Jim Parker]

So don't you believe the Bible teac

I don't believe the Bible teaches the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity.
IMO, the Bible teaches that all of mankind has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and that the wages of sin is death. Therefore all of mankind is in need of salvation from death that comes as a result of sin.

jim

 

[Christ_empowered]

I know a lot of people cannot -stand- Calvinism, but...

when it comes to Total Depravity, I think they're pretty much spot on. Even the most hardcore Pentecostal I know will admit that Jesus has to "deal with your heart" before one can become genuinely saved. to me...

Scripture is fairly plain that human nature is bad from birth, and we just get worse over time, barring divine intervention. The OT Law helped create a functioning society and outwardly moral, righteous people...

but lacked the power to -save- from sin, at all levels. As Christians, we've (thankfully...) been grafted onto the tree, and we have been saved from: sin (and...satan, self, death, and the world) in and thru and because of Christ Jesus, and Him Crucified (I'd argue and Him Resurrected, also...but whatevs...).

I personally didn't get saved until 28, after a wasted existence ("life"). Odd as this may sound, I find the NT condemnation of unredeemed human beings...if not "comforting," then at least...helpful, because I see it in who I once was, chunks of who and what I hold onto, and--speaking as a weakling only fairly recently made remarkably whole, albeit flawed and frail--lots of "respectable," even "good" people all around me.

and I lean towards Calvinism 101 (NOT an expert at all, nor am I trying to act like one) and TULIP because...

personally, getting genuinely saved required some divine intervention for me...and the events that followed I see now as God's work.....so...

I don't think its un-Biblical to support the (more) Calvinist interpretation of mankind's natural state, and I honestly don't see why some Christians find elements of Calvinism (because I think one can support parts of TULIP, Sprouls' teachings, etc. without becoming a card carrying Presbyterian....) so utterly repugnant. Human beings are wretched. That would explain widespread poverty in the face of plenty, The Holocaust, abortion on demand, and all sorts of violence and cruelty. Only God can get a wretch to see the light...in the form of The Good News. makes sense to me, at a number of levels (real world observations and Scripture, together...). God knows, long before we do, who is His and who is not. Not exactly compatible with (post)modern society's faux egalitarian sensibilities, but...

is it True? I think+believe so, yes. I honestly do, sometimes more so than others, but increasingly....yes, yes, yes. I do not think a human being can rationally call Jesus Lord...I think God has to intervene, and I think He does it for The Elect.

 

[Jim Parker]

I know a lot of people cannot -stand- Calvinism, but...when it comes to Total Depravity, I think they're pretty much spot on.

I think it is important to be clear about exactly what the "total depravity" doctrine states.

Total depravity:
The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)

The statement that all people are unable to choose to follow God is a denial of man’s free will.

Does the Bible teach that man has no free will?

DT 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

JOS 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

PR 8:10 Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold,

ISA 56:4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--

PS 34:11-14 Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. 12 Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days, keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies. Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.

EZE 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.

MK 16:15-16 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

JN 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

JN 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

REV 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

REV 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

The assumption that that man has the freedom to make a choice is the basis of all these (and more) verses. Man has free will. The notion that man is incapable of making such a choice is not compatible with the teaching of scripture.

God’s earnest encouragement to choose to serve Him permeates the scriptures. The notion that all mankind is incapable of doing so, that all mankind is “hard wired” to oppose God contradicts the teaching of Scripture.

ISA 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."

ISA 1:19-20 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

The phrase "if you are willing" requires that the person be able to exercise his free will.

This is one of many examples in scripture of how God deals with man; by giving man the freedom to make a choice. Total depravity resulting in having no free will is not Biblical.

Imho....

iakov the fool

 

[Christ_empowered]

excellent Scripture selections. you also make valid points. I'm thinking of...

how few people who "made a decision for Christ" stay -in Christ-. Were they saved to begin with? that kind of thing...

 

[Jim Parker]

Were they saved to begin with? that kind of thing...

No one is "saved to begin with."
Salvation is a process.
1. Believe. (Requires an act of will.)
2. Act like you believe for the rest of your life. (requires continuous acts of will.)
3. Rejoice when Jesus comes again.

 

[Razeontherock]

No one is "saved to begin with."
Salvation is a process.
1. Believe. (Requires an act of will.)
2. Act like you believe for the rest of your life. (requires continuous acts of will.)
3. Rejoice when Jesus comes again.

I have not yet made it to that #3 part yet.

I must be doing something wrong

 

[Christ_empowered]

But does belief require an act of will? Or is it God's will for us to believe?

 

[OzSpen]

I don't believe the Bible teaches the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity.
IMO, the Bible teaches that all of mankind has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and that the wages of sin is death. Therefore all of mankind is in need of salvation from death that comes as a result of sin.

jim

Jim,

Would you be so kind as to help me understand what you believe? Since all human beings have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23), what's your view on the cause of people sinning? Why do they sin?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

But does belief require an act of will? Or is it God's will for us to believe?

CE,

The Philippian jailer asked, 'What must I do to be saved?'

Paul and Silas replied, "They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household'" (Acts 16:31 NIV).

In the Greek, 'Believe' is in the imperative mood, i.e. it's a command. So the meaning is: 'You believe in the Lord Jesus ...'.

Was it an act of the will for the jailer and his household?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I don't believe the Bible teaches the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity.
IMO, the Bible teaches that all of mankind has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and that the wages of sin is death. Therefore all of mankind is in need of salvation from death that comes as a result of sin.

jim

Jim,

How do you understand Eph 2:1-2 (NIV): 'As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient'.

How do you understand Paul's statement that the unbelieving Ephesians - before salvation - 'were dead in your transgressions and sins?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Cops ,say it.when they bust a drug dealer it won't dent the drug sales.

Cops in my house discussed that while over to discuss charging the dealer they already knew, plotted,plan and arrested.

Laws don't prevent ,they punish ..look i have been stalked, assaulted ,robbed .my point is when a society flaunts laws ,no matter the amount cops try laws won't work.

We live in a society where we work to escape punishment.in afghanistan we lost less men then cops,murders in large cities per month.was that from anarchy in Afghanistan? Nope ,but because men wanted to murder in america and less hajis wanted to kill soldiers.

Jason,

My question to you, then, is should we do away with all laws (since all people won't obey them) and legislate the policies of The Libertarian Party?

Oz