Are all people infected by sin?

[jasonc]

Jason,

My question to you, then, is should we do away with all laws (since all people won't obey them) and legislate the policies of The Libertarian Party?

Oz

Not all of them .I'm not for their views of things as my views can't be tied to any one party.

Drug laws are useless in that they don't reduce the amount of users, the function of law is to create order.I'm trained in this.you must enforce laws and make examples to force a line .

See portugual, not perfect but a reduction in users while not legalisation of pot,cocaine etc. They hit the dealers hard aND try to help the user.

I'm familiar with libertarians. I'm against abortion on demand ,I can't support gay marriage but once legal I'm not going to to ask that be made illegal sonce well I didn't need state permission to date,have sex with a man.I simply did.making it illegal won't save them.

I'm also seeing big problem with the idea of two consenting adults as there is no bottom to the fallen nature of men

 

[Jim Parker]

I have not yet made it to that #3 part yet.
I must be doing something wrong

Nah. You're good.

Mat 24:13 ... he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,
Would you be so kind as to help me understand what you believe? Since all human beings have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23), what's your view on the cause of people sinning? Why do they sin?
Oz

1. Because it is hard to resist temptation.
2. Because we fail to "take every thought captive."
3. Because Satan never gives up.

That's why we have confession.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Jim Parker]

How do you understand Paul's statement that the unbelieving Ephesians - before salvation - 'were dead in your transgressions and sins?

That is the "normal" state of the unregenrate person. Dead in his sins.
However, we are not stuck in that condition.
Rom 6:3-7
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:12-13
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Read the whole chapter and the next one too.

 

[Jim Parker]

But does belief require an act of will? Or is it God's will for us to believe?

Both.
It is God's will that we believe
BUT
God does not force us to believe. It is our choice.

 

[Jim Parker]

My question to you, then, is should we do away with all laws (since all people won't obey them) and legislate the policies of The Libertarian Party?

Rom 6:1-2 ... Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

 

[OzSpen]

Not all of them .I'm not for their views of things as my views can't be tied to any one party.

Drug laws are useless in that they don't reduce the amount of users, the function of law is to create order.I'm trained in this.you must enforce laws and make examples to force a line .

See portugual, not perfect but a reduction in users while not legalisation of pot,cocaine etc. They hit the dealers hard aND try to help the user.

I'm familiar with libertarians. I'm against abortion on demand ,I can't support gay marriage but once legal I'm not going to to ask that be made illegal sonce well I didn't need state permission to date,have sex with a man.I simply did.making it illegal won't save them.

I'm also seeing big problem with the idea of two consenting adults as there is no bottom to the fallen nature of men

Jason,

Who decides which laws are right for a nation? What measurement should a country use?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

That is the "normal" state of the unregenrate person. Dead in his sins.
However, we are not stuck in that condition.
Rom 6:3-7
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:12-13
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Read the whole chapter and the next one too.

Jim,

I've read those 2 chapters many times in my Christian life. I'm still uncertain of your understanding of the meaning of 'dead in their transgressions and sins' (Eph 2:1-2). How are people 'dead in their transgressions'?

Does that mean it's impossible for them to come alive in Christ until God regenerates them so they can have faith in Jesus?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Rom 6:1-2 ... Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Jim,

Quoting these 2 verses still does not answer my question:

My question to you [Jason], then, is should we do away with all laws (since all people won't obey them) and legislate the policies of The Libertarian Party?

Your referring to Rom 6:1-2 doesn't solve the problem of lawlessness for unbelievers.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,

I've read those 2 chapters many times in my Christian life. I'm still uncertain of your understanding of the meaning of 'dead in their transgressions and sins' (Eph 2:1-2). How are people 'dead in their transgressions'?

Does that mean it's impossible for them to come alive in Christ until God regenerates them so they can have faith in Jesus?

Oz

If some one has sinned (and every one has) he is "dead in his sins." The wages of sin is death. That is physical death end eternal separation from God after the resurrection.

"Regeneration" happens in Baptism after they have already believed. That's when the "body of sin" is buried with Christ and the believer is raised to new life.

 

[Jim Parker]

Quoting these 2 verses still does not answer my question:

Hmmmm.....It should.
I don't understand why anyone should as if we should do away with all laws.
Maybe you could explain that question

 

[OzSpen]

"Regeneration" happens in Baptism after they have already believed. That's when the "body of sin" is buried with Christ and the believer is raised to new life.

I know that's your Orthodox Church's position and your belief.

It's not mine because I know that when we are united with Christ, we are reconciled by His blood sacrifice and so we experience regeneration at the time of salvation through repentance and faith.

When we are 'in Christ', we experience life that flows from Christ. How does this union take place. Through faith in Jesus! See: Rom 5:1; Eph 1:13 and Col 2:12.

The word 'regeneration' appears only twice in the entire Bible: once from Jesus in Matt 19:28 and the other through Paul, Titus 3:5.

The latter verse states, 'He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth [regeneration] and renewal by the Holy Spirit' (Titus 3:5 NIV)

So, we are regenerated, not through our baptism, but because of God's mercy in bringing rebirth (regeneration) through the Holy Spirit - at the time of our initial repentance and faith in Him.

Becoming born from above, born again, rebirthed = regeneration. Baptism is nowhere to be seen in these verses.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hmmmm.....It should.
I don't understand why anyone should as if we should do away with all laws.
Maybe you could explain that question

Jim,

I've never ever suggested that we do away with all laws. That's not my belief.

Someone else on this forum discussed laws against illicit drugs that do not stop drug abuse. My comments related to that view.

I support all the laws of Australia, except those that disagree with God's laws ('Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than human beings! - Acts 5:29 NIV).

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

Who decides which laws are right for a nation? What measurement should a country use?

Oz

Unless you suggest we should mandate atheism ,non christian beliefs as criminal. There's going to be compromise.

I have bisexuals in my family ,you can't says one marry a inmate who is on life then say it's not ok for them.

Where is freedom of religion in the bible?

 

[OzSpen]

Unless you suggest we should mandate atheism ,non christian beliefs as criminal. There's going to be compromise.

I have bisexuals in my family ,you can't says one marry a inmate who is on life then say it's not ok for them.

Where is freedom of religion in the bible?

jason,

The above is your answer to my question: "Who decides which laws are right for a nation? What measurement should a country use?"

You didn't tell me in this post how a nation decides which laws are right to legislate?

How does the govt. determine right and wrong behaviour for its laws?

Oz

 

[jasonc]

jason,

The above is your answer to my question: "Who decides which laws are right for a nation? What measurement should a country use?"

You didn't tell me in this post how a nation decides which laws are right to legislate?

How does the govt. determine right and wrong behaviour for its laws?

Oz

Based on society views.I don't live in australia,i once voted the way you imply.I will not see roe vs wade overturned,or fat marriage go away,so I have accepted as most people I know in my hard right town don't seem to mind both.

Times have changed, the Republicans by large are mixed on attempts, in a blue state these are light leftists,in my state they tried but judges appointed negate them.

This is why when it comes to legislation for morality it's useless. We are attacking a spiritual problem with Political office. Not the way.

 

[Corn Pop]

where is freedom of religion in the bible?

if there was no freedom of religion in the bible then Jesus, the diciples, and Paul would have all been on a convert or face penalty missions.

I don't see anywhere Paul forcing people to follow christianity. It actually went the other way, he was persecuted.

 

[Jim Parker]

I know that's your Orthodox Church's position and your belief.

That is the teaching of Scripture and the teaching of the very early church.

It's not mine because I know that when we are united with Christ, we are reconciled by His blood sacrifice and so we experience regeneration at the time of salvation through repentance and faith.

There is no scriptural basis for that opinion.

 

[Jim Parker]

Where is freedom of religion in the bible?

Deu 30:19 “I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Jos 24:15 “And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

 

[turnorburn]

I know that's your Orthodox Church's position and your belief.

It's not mine because I know that when we are united with Christ, we are reconciled by His blood sacrifice and so we experience regeneration at the time of salvation through repentance and faith.

When we are 'in Christ', we experience life that flows from Christ. How does this union take place. Through faith in Jesus! See: Rom 5:1; Eph 1:13 and Col 2:12.

The word 'regeneration' appears only twice in the entire Bible: once from Jesus in Matt 19:28 and the other through Paul, Titus 3:5.

The latter verse states, 'He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth [regeneration] and renewal by the Holy Spirit' (Titus 3:5 NIV)

So, we are regenerated, not through our baptism, but because of God's mercy in bringing rebirth (regeneration) through the Holy Spirit - at the time of our initial repentance and faith in Him.

Becoming born from above, born again, rebirthed = regeneration. Baptism is nowhere to be seen in these verses.

Oz

Agreed.. i don't think the Ortholdox church believes as Protestants do..