Are Calamities Judgment from God?

[Mike]

Okay, I've always looked at scripture, pointed to Gomorrah and other examples to give scriptural support that calamity can be due to the judgment of sin by God. But I have never looked at an event and said this is why. I was listening to Hank Hanegraaff today. For those who don't know him, he does a daily Q&A show for Christians.

A caller said he believes all calamities on a national level, and he pointed to Haiti, are an indication that God is judging their sin as a nation. Pat Robertson came out and said it after the earthquake in Haiti occurred, and I think this leaves a terrible blemish on Christianity in the wake of such devastation. I've wondered, and left it open that it could be, but I wouldn't accuse a nation of bringing this on themselves.

Hanks response to the caller that while Jeremiah 18 says:
13 Therefore this is what the LORD says:
"Inquire among the nations:
Who has ever heard anything like this?
A most horrible thing has been done
by Virgin Israel.

14 Does the snow of Lebanon
ever vanish from its rocky slopes?
Do its cool waters from distant sources
ever cease to flow? [a]

15 Yet my people have forgotten me;
they burn incense to worthless idols,
which made them stumble in their ways
and in the ancient paths.
They made them walk in bypaths
and on roads not built up.

16 Their land will be laid waste,
an object of lasting scorn;
all who pass by will be appalled
and will shake their heads.

17 Like a wind from the east,
I will scatter them before their enemies;
I will show them my back and not my face
in the day of their disaster."

Luke 13 says this:
"1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

But Jeremiah was a prophet. We aren't. At least, I'm not. Therefore, as Hank stated, I don't believe we should state unequivocally that God's judgment is in calamity. I don't even think it is our place to suggest it.

Not a new topic, but it was something I heard today.
Any thoughts?

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Mike

I am sure of one thing. At the very least, God allowed this earth quake. Beyond that, I will not comment.

But, lets not start believing that a natural disater is just that -- "natural". That would be taking God out of the scenario.

God always play a part, one way or another.

 

[Lloyd81]

Hi Mike,

I think our greed as people on this earth cause so many problems, and it's easy to point a finger at God when a disaster happens, as if it's some judgement.

If we lived as we should, together, looking for peace, and looking to help everyone out, for everyone to have a fair share, then we could save far more lives than we do. After all, why does one man live in a secure home, yet the other has a home built from poor foundations which crumble? Why does one country have rescue 5 minutes away, yet another country needs aid from 4000 miles away? Why does one country have water from a tap, yet another, they have to walk a mile to get it? There are so many things we fall short on as human beings, I think if we were less greedy, the disasters would be less and the result not so damaging.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Okay, I've always looked at scripture, pointed to Gomorrah and other examples to give scriptural support that calamity can be due to the judgment of sin by God. But I have never looked at an event and said this is why. I was listening to Hank Hanegraaff today. For those who don't know him, he does a daily Q&A show for Christians.

A caller said he believes all calamities on a national level, and he pointed to Haiti, are an indication that God is judging their sin as a nation. Pat Robertson came out and said it after the earthquake in Haiti occurred, and I think this leaves a terrible blemish on Christianity in the wake of such devastation. I've wondered, and left it open that it could be, but I wouldn't accuse a nation of bringing this on themselves.

Hanks response to the caller that while Jeremiah 18 says:
13 Therefore this is what the LORD says:
"Inquire among the nations:
Who has ever heard anything like this?
A most horrible thing has been done
by Virgin Israel.

14 Does the snow of Lebanon
ever vanish from its rocky slopes?
Do its cool waters from distant sources
ever cease to flow? [a]

15 Yet my people have forgotten me;
they burn incense to worthless idols,
which made them stumble in their ways
and in the ancient paths.
They made them walk in bypaths
and on roads not built up.

16 Their land will be laid waste,
an object of lasting scorn;
all who pass by will be appalled
and will shake their heads.

17 Like a wind from the east,
I will scatter them before their enemies;
I will show them my back and not my face
in the day of their disaster."

Luke 13 says this:
"1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

But Jeremiah was a prophet. We aren't. At least, I'm not. Therefore, as Hank stated, I don't believe we should state unequivocally that God's judgment is in calamity. I don't even think it is our place to suggest it.

Not a new topic, but it was something I heard today.
Any thoughts?

firstly on the luke passage, Jesus did not say that what happened to the galieans was not because of their sin, of the tower was not because of their sin. He said they were not WORSE sinners than the rest- but that unless you repent you will likewise perish.- That means those people were not worse sinners then the rest, but it did happen because of their sin and unless you repent it will h appen to you also.

Beyond that the testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT OF PROPHESY. John says that if we believe the gospel that we hold the teestimony of Jesus in ourselves. We are the sons of God and we have the Holy Spirit of God living in us so of course it is for us to say if something was of God or not, if we know it. Now haiti had a prophet come to them first and warn them if they did not repent an earthquake was coming so can we say for sure? yes. many of these recenty earthquakes had a prophet come to them first to warn it was coming if they didnt repent so can we know? sure.

If you want to know just ask God.

 

[jasoncran]

lol, i am using this argument against theistic evolution as if that is true and a natural disaster is a considered natural selection. there fore god is at least responsible for the deaths of christians and unbelievers.

my stance, he allows it but may not be using that for judgement, though this verse does apply to all
for its appointed for all men once to die then unto judgement.

does this mean the God judged haiti? yes and no, we cant be sure and its best not to say but rather assist the hurting and call to them to repentance.

 

[Mike]

Hi Mike

I am sure of one thing. At the very least, God allowed this earth quake. Beyond that, I will not comment.

But, lets not start believing that a natural disater is just that -- "natural". That would be taking God out of the scenario.

God always play a part, one way or another.

Agreed. I've been very consistent in this. Everything that comes upon man has been filtered and permitted by God and only happens under His authority.

firstly on the luke passage, Jesus did not say that what happened to the galieans was not because of their sin, of the tower was not because of their sin. He said they were not WORSE sinners than the rest- but that unless you repent you will likewise perish.- That means those people were not worse sinners then the rest, but it did happen because of their sin and unless you repent it will h appen to you also.

It seems very clear that this scripture agrees with your premise. So who's sin is greater, that country's or this country's. Believe me, I'm not against calling sin sin. But determining that a catastrophe is due to their sin isn't our place, IMO.

Beyond that the testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT OF PROPHESY. John says that if we believe the gospel that we hold the teestimony of Jesus in ourselves. We are the sons of God and we have the Holy Spirit of God living in us so of course it is for us to say if something was of God or not, if we know it.

GPS, how do we determine that someone is not a prophet or a false prophet? Would you agree that Charles Russell should be ruled out as a prophet? Do you meet this criteria to be a prophet? I'm not calling you out. God's hand is very much on His creation. Not many are given the gift of prophecy, although many are ready to claim to be a prophet.

 

[archangel_300]

Hi Mike

I am sure of one thing. At the very least, God allowed this earth quake. Beyond that, I will not comment.

But, lets not start believing that a natural disater is just that -- "natural". That would be taking God out of the scenario.

God always play a part, one way or another.

I agree with Mysteryman and Hank and with what you said Mike.


We shouldn't think that God is bringing judgment whenever calamity strikes. That may or may not be the case but it serves as a warning to us that unless we repent we too will perish for all eternity.
True judgment for sin occurs in the life after this one.

 

[happyjoy]

It is warm and sunny outside. God must think I am the greatest person, and obviously I am right in my thinking about the nature of God. If I wasn't I woudn't be seeing such great weather today.


Natural disasters are just that. Natural.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

It seems very clear that this scripture agrees with your premise. So who's sin is greater, that country's or this country's. Believe me, I'm not against calling sin sin. But determining that a catastrophe is due to their sin isn't our place, IMO.


GPS, how do we determine that someone is not a prophet or a false prophet? Would you agree that Charles Russell should be ruled out as a prophet? Do you meet this criteria to be a prophet? I'm not calling you out. God's hand is very much on His creation. Not many are given the gift of prophecy, although many are ready to claim to be a prophet.

It doesnt matter whose sin is greater because Gods work is always righteous and for a purpose. It may be that in truth this countries sins are greater, but that God sent warning and then judgement their first. He can do that, there is nothing that requires Him to judge countries or people in the order of their level of sinfulness. We see this clearly even in scripture as we see that mystery babylon doesnt get her judgement until the end but surely she is due it more than some of the individuals who will get it before that. God works all things out for the good of those who LOVE him. It could be that this countries sins are greater, but there are also more rightous people here as well, or that He desired a nations repentance and He knew that warning and then judgement there would reap far more faith and repentnace then it would here.

We judge a prophet by His fruits. This specific prophet has warned many of these places and then soon after the judgement comes. we cannot take the attitude that in Christ we have no way to know whats up or down we are the Sons of God- and we should know our brethern by their fruits we should be able to discern what is from our Father, what is His voice and what is not. But we cannot let our flesh get involved because flesh never wants to know that flesh is being judged on the earth.

 

[Mysteryman]

It is warm and sunny outside. God must think I am the greatest person, and obviously I am right in my thinking about the nature of God. If I wasn't I woudn't be seeing such great weather today.


Natural disasters are just that. Natural.

Yes, it is sunny and warm out here where I live as well. So it must be a natural disaster that I am here talking with you. :rolling :biglol

 

[Mike]

It doesnt matter whose sin is greater because Gods work is always righteous and for a purpose. It may be that in truth this countries sins are greater, but that God sent warning and then judgement their first. He can do that, there is nothing that requires Him to judge countries or people in the order of their level of sinfulness. We see this clearly even in scripture as we see that mystery babylon doesnt get her judgement until the end but surely she is due it more than some of the individuals who will get it before that. God works all things out for the good of those who LOVE him. It could be that this countries sins are greater, but there are also more rightous people here as well, or that He desired a nations repentance and He knew that warning and then judgement there would reap far more faith and repentnace then it would here.

GPS, I'm not saying it was or wasn't God's wrath on Haiti, and this could be said for any major calamity. I don't know and wouldn't make that accusation. God, in all His autonomy, allows hunger, disease, natural disasters, etc. to take place and will use it for His greater good. The book of Job has a lot of great stuff on His command over nature. We would definitely be in agreement that God is capable of doing whatever He desires. His ways do not require our approval or understanding. So, we agree that this, the tsunami, whatever could be judgment of sins. But, you say...

We judge a prophet by His fruits. This specific prophet has warned many of these places and then soon after the judgement comes. we cannot take the attitude that in Christ we have no way to know whats up or down we are the Sons of God- and we should know our brethern by their fruits we should be able to discern what is from our Father, what is His voice and what is not. But we cannot let our flesh get involved because flesh never wants to know that flesh is being judged on the earth.

I don't know GPS. I thought a Christian is known by his fruits, not a prophet. I'm not going to dig my heals in and demand that we are do not all have the gift of prophesy, but my understanding of has always been on Romans 12.
"3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully."

But I but I'll acknowledge the Paul states that it is more of a general gift to all Christians in 1 Corinthians a few times, and here's one: 1 Cor 14:
"24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

But I draw a line between the prophets such as Isaiah and Jeremiah who were directed by God to go to a king and tell him why something has happened to his land, and the general prophecy that seemed to vamp up in after Pentecost. When they spoke on behalf of God, it was with specific messages the Lord gave to bring a person or nation back to their knees.

This begs a question that I've always wondered about Prophecy, but it strays from this topic, so I think I'll create another thread on the topic and would be interested in your thoughts as well as others.

Mike

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

mike, I am not suggesting that all beleivers have the gift of prophesy, just that we all have the same Spirit of prophesy. We can know a prophet by His fruits. Beyond that, If a prophet comes in the name of Jesus, preaches the simple gospel- along with repent and judgement is coming if you do not repent in the form of an earthquake- then an earthquake happens- and then the same prophet goes to another country and does the same thing and warns repent or earthquake and they dont and then there is another earthquake and then the same prophet goes to another country and preaches repent or earthquake and they dont repent and an earthquake happens etc.. I think we can be sure that God is sending these countries a prophet and what is following is from God the judgement that they were warned of.

But I would say beyond that, we agree that God does what is right, can do what He wants, and has control over all things and even nature. So the question could then become, does the scriptures teach that there is such a thing as " chance " or " natural disasters"? We know that something natural such as an earthquake or tsunami may happen but does that mean that it was just nature or chance that it happened? Or does it mean that GOD used His creation to do it? and Do we see anything in scripture that can show us that it is possible for this stuff to just " happen" without it being Gods command and Gods purpose? I would say No we see nothing that suggests that anything happens like this without it being Gods command. How many times does God make it clear that He sets the line that the ocean waters cannot cross etc.... He also says alot of things like this
Deu 32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.
Deu 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
Deu 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

When things happened to Gods people - and often pagans- in the word of God who gets the credit? Why do they always speak things like this


Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Lam 3:37 Who [is] he [that] saith, and it cometh to pass, [when] the Lord commandeth [it] not?
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

and they do not say that some chance has come upon them

 

[happyjoy]

We know that something natural such as an earthquake or tsunami may happen but does that mean that it was just nature or chance that it happened? Or does it mean that GOD used His creation to do it? and Do we see anything in scripture that can show us that it is possible for this stuff to just " happen" without it being Gods command and Gods purpose? I would say No we see nothing that suggests that anything happens like this without it being Gods command.

So you are saying that there is no such thing as chance or natural causes? That is silly. That smacks of determinism, and that would mean we have no free will. Earth quakes happen on fault lines. What about this disaster in the Gulf? Man is responsible for that or did God cause that too?

God doesn't control the weather. That is superstitious and childish thinking. When it thunders that doesn't mean God is angry.

 

[Caroline H]

As someone who believes that God is in complete control over his creation (sovereign), I trust that God can cause things directly, or he can allow things to happen. For instance, if an earthquake happens because of a fault, then I believe that God allowed it to happen because he has a purpose for it, and that if it weren't in his plan he would not have allowed it to happen. That is not superstition, it is understanding that God (by the very definition of the term) is in control of nature.

 

[Mysteryman]

We know that something natural such as an earthquake or tsunami may happen but does that mean that it was just nature or chance that it happened? Or does it mean that GOD used His creation to do it? and Do we see anything in scripture that can show us that it is possible for this stuff to just " happen" without it being Gods command and Gods purpose? I would say No we see nothing that suggests that anything happens like this without it being Gods command.

So you are saying that there is no such thing as chance or natural causes? That is silly. That smacks of determinism, and that would mean we have no free will. Earth quakes happen on fault lines. What about this disaster in the Gulf? Man is responsible for that or did God cause that too?

God doesn't control the weather. That is superstitious and childish thinking. When it thunders that doesn't mean God is angry.

Hi

Just saying that God does not control the weather, is just short of blasphemy . Or maybe I am wrong, wouldn't be the first time. Maybe it is blasphemy ?

God does cause droughts, and it is clear from within scripture, that he can make it rain when he wants and he can shut off the rain from the clouds when he wants too. Genesis 2:5 -- Genesis 7:4

 

[Mike]

mike, I am not suggesting that all beleivers have the gift of prophesy, just that we all have the same Spirit of prophesy. We can know a prophet by His fruits. Beyond that, If a prophet comes in the name of Jesus, preaches the simple gospel- along with repent and judgement is coming if you do not repent in the form of an earthquake- then an earthquake happens- and then the same prophet goes to another country and does the same thing and warns repent or earthquake and they dont and then there is another earthquake and then the same prophet goes to another country and preaches repent or earthquake and they dont repent and an earthquake happens etc.. I think we can be sure that God is sending these countries a prophet and what is following is from God the judgement that they were warned of.

Yes, well we're in agreement then. But I didn't realize you were saying that there was a prophet who warned Haiti or the nation that incurred another specific disaster. You seem to imply that, but you aren't specific. If you know of someone who did so, can you share?

My point, which you seem to agree with, is that we can't assume that calamity happens due to the sins of a nation impacted. God has Providence over all of His creation and despite what happyjoy believes, His Hand does control weather and storms. Would He be powerless over that which He created? Certainly not!!! Save for the prophet who He uses to send His message, we can't/shouldn't declare that sin is the reason. His purpose could be something different altogether.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Mike,

God has both a sovereign and permissive will, this I believe. :yes It is true that God may cause such calamities at times, but sometimes when others see God's hand in the calamity, I see the hand of God in the wake of such calamities. This is when the faithful bear their fruit. :amen

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7445500/

 

[Mysteryman]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7445500/

I prophesied that there is coming a day, that California will have a great earth quake.

I do believe that this prophecy has already been given. "There shall be famines and earthquakes in many places" - Matthew 24:7

 

[Mike]

Hi Mike,

God has both a sovereign and permissive will, this I believe. :yes It is true that God may cause such calamities at times, but sometimes when others see God's hand in the calamity, I see the hand of God in the wake of such calamities. This is when the faithful bear their fruit. :amen

super-cool post. Groovy!